Pricing Help - Sundance Optima And Hot Spring Grandee

[dark rider]

Well, after countless hours of researching, wet testing, debating, etc., I finally made a decision! Heck, I don't think I spent this much time shopping for my house or any of my cars! Before I divulge what I bought, let me first say thanks to all of those who stepped up and offered advice and those who've just been regular posters and shared so much expertise! This forum has been a valuable resource in helping me research and make an informed decision. Had I not come here, I likely wood have bought a lesser tub in an effort to save money, and probably would not have been nearly as happy with my purchase decision. Some advice I would pass on to others who are in the shopping process.

1. First and foremost, wet test any tub you are seriously considering. The differences between brands varies GREATLY, and no two models, even from the same manufacturer, feel or fit exactly the same. Wet test your top two or three tubs on the same day if at all possible, so that differences are fresh in your mind. Don't be afraid to wet test multiple times either. We ended up wet testing our top choices twice.

2. The total number of jets doesn't mean a hill of beans when comparing tubs. The jet placement and design far outweigh the total quantity!

3. Stick to the reputable brands. They will be far more reliable overall, and easier to service when you do have any potential issues.

4. A good dealer relationship is key! When you purchase a tub, it isn't going to be the last time you see your dealer. Learn how he/she operates, how long they've been in business, and how happy their clientele is. You may be one of them.

5. Take time to learn what features are important to you and how you plan to use and care for the tub. Each manufacturer brings different things to the equation, based on their design and build philosophy. This will help you narrow down your search.

6. Price. Establish a budget based on #5, and include the total cost for installation as well (pad, electric, etc.). Use the forum to help you determine what similar pricing others have gotten for the same model(s). Let the wet test narrow down your top choices, and then figure out your likes and dislikes for each. Take into account all of the factors in making your final tradeoff decision, not just price!

All that said, I ended up going with... *drumroll* a new 2010 Hot Spring Grandee in the Pearl/Espresso finish with the ACE Saltwater system, matching Everwood steps, Uprite coverlifter, booster seat for the Mrs., 6 months salt/startup chems, delivery and installation (includes decking buildout to accomodate slate, since the Grandee can't be shimmed). With the labor day special and some negotiating on my part, my pre-tax sales price was $10,395, and I'm quite happy with what I got for that price! I signed the paperwork on Saturday, and will take delivery in four to six weeks.

For those wondering, what sold us on the Grandee versus the Optima, which was a very close runner up... Here were our considerations: Cost of ownership, both inital and long term and ease of maintenance with ACE and Tri-X filters were less than the Optima. The extra size is a nice bonus for entertaining. The ingenious arm wrests sculpted into the shell, which we only noticed during the second wet test, made the barrier free seating just as comfy without sacrificing the space. Dual Moto-Massage is wonderful, and we didn't notice it the first time, but those seats have different proportions for different sized users. The topside and auxillary controls are much better than the Optima. While a step down in power from the Optima, the Grandee still has excellent power and does not rely on bypass filtation to get it. We'll probably miss the foot dome a bit from the Optima, and maybe the Sunscents/air as well, but not enough to justify the added cost and maintenance.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Congrats Dark, excellent work and post.

Patience, wet testing and taking a step back to analyze things before you pull the trigger triples your chances of being satisfied afterward.

[gman]

gman, still on the fence here =) Did you by chance also wet test the Vanguard?

darkrider,

I just wanted to apologize for not responding to your question sooner, but as you may be aware, this site is/was having problems and I was getting blocked out after signing in. I see you've made your decision in the interim, so my response to your question "Did you get a chance to also wet test the Vanguard?" is moot.

Congratulations on your new tub. Happy Tubbing!

gman

[dark rider]

No worries gman! I've been having the same problems with the forum as everyone else. I never did get a chance to wet test a Vanguard, and although the thought of saving a few $$ was appealing, like jayhawker originally suggested, once you start reviewing all of the differences between the Grandee and the Vanguard, it's worth it to move up if you have the space. The $$ difference between them also wasn't nearly as much after I factored in the additional discounting I got on the Grandee, and little things like the Tri-X filters that don't come standard on the Vanguard.

Once the tub is up and running, I'll be sure to post back with some pictures and impressions of the entire experience.

[jayhawker]

No worries gman! I've been having the same problems with the forum as everyone else. I never did get a chance to wet test a Vanguard, and although the thought of saving a few $$ was appealing, like jayhawker originally suggested, once you start reviewing all of the differences between the Grandee and the Vanguard, it's worth it to move up if you have the space. The $$ difference between them also wasn't nearly as much after I factored in the additional discounting I got on the Grandee, and little things like the Tri-X filters that don't come standard on the Vanguard.

Once the tub is up and running, I'll be sure to post back with some pictures and impressions of the entire experience.

And now the long wait for delivery. Hope you enjoy your tub.

[dark rider]

Thanks Jayhawker, we're really looking forward to getting it! The temperature is finally starting to drop in the evenings here in Atlanta, and there have been a couple nights where my wife and I both agreed that it would have been a perfect night to be in the tub. Still probably about 2 - 4 weeks out at this point from the quoted 4 - 6 week delivery timeframe. I plan on calling the dealer next week to check on my subpanel, since I still need to get the electrician out. Did you go with the ACE Saltwater on your Grandee? Curious to hear other users impressions. I spoke with a couple of folks that my dealer had referred, and all seemed to really like it.

[jayhawker]

Thanks Jayhawker, we're really looking forward to getting it! The temperature is finally starting to drop in the evenings here in Atlanta, and there have been a couple nights where my wife and I both agreed that it would have been a perfect night to be in the tub. Still probably about 2 - 4 weeks out at this point from the quoted 4 - 6 week delivery timeframe. I plan on calling the dealer next week to check on my subpanel, since I still need to get the electrician out. Did you go with the ACE Saltwater on your Grandee? Curious to hear other users impressions. I spoke with a couple of folks that my dealer had referred, and all seemed to really like it.

We didn't go with the Ace system. From what I've read, it seems like salt water systems for hot tubs get mixed reviews. Good for pools but still being refined for hot tubs. This was our first tub and didn't want to take a chance. I read and re-read Nitro's write up on water care and could feel my eyes glaze over after a couple of paragraphs. Excellent document but way too technical for me. I just want to soak not be a Jr. Chemist. I follow the directions that the salesman told us, buy the chemicals online in bulk, and test the water every week or two. No water issues to-date.

[dark rider]

[We didn't go with the Ace system. From what I've read, it seems like salt water systems for hot tubs get mixed reviews. Good for pools but still being refined for hot tubs. This was our first tub and didn't want to take a chance. I read and re-read Nitro's write up on water care and could feel my eyes glaze over after a couple of paragraphs. Excellent document but way too technical for me. I just want to soak not be a Jr. Chemist. I follow the directions that the salesman told us, buy the chemicals online in bulk, and test the water every week or two. No water issues to-date.

Very true based on what I've read as well... Historically, saltwater systems for hot tubs have had difficulty keeping up with the changing demands in a hot tub environment (heat, less water, more contaminants). I really liked the allure of the softer water, extended drain intervals, chemical savings, and automation though. The HotSpring product does appear to be unique in that it can generate more than just chlorine though. The 3 year test cycle that HotSpring underwent before releasing it, user testimonials, and my dealer's overwhelming support of the product convinced me that it was worth checking out, especially since the discount without it would have only been about $500. I plan to report my candid feedback after living with it for a while. I'm hopeful that it lives up to my expectations, but if it doesn't, the good news is that the tub can easily be converted to the standard chemical regimen.

[piper]

[We didn't go with the Ace system. From what I've read, it seems like salt water systems for hot tubs get mixed reviews. Good for pools but still being refined for hot tubs. This was our first tub and didn't want to take a chance. I read and re-read Nitro's write up on water care and could feel my eyes glaze over after a couple of paragraphs. Excellent document but way too technical for me. I just want to soak not be a Jr. Chemist. I follow the directions that the salesman told us, buy the chemicals online in bulk, and test the water every week or two. No water issues to-date.

Very true based on what I've read as well... Historically, saltwater systems for hot tubs have had difficulty keeping up with the changing demands in a hot tub environment (heat, less water, more contaminants). I really liked the allure of the softer water, extended drain intervals, chemical savings, and automation though. The HotSpring product does appear to be unique in that it can generate more than just chlorine though. The 3 year test cycle that HotSpring underwent before releasing it, user testimonials, and my dealer's overwhelming support of the product convinced me that it was worth checking out, especially since the discount without it would have only been about $500. I plan to report my candid feedback after living with it for a while. I'm hopeful that it lives up to my expectations, but if it doesn't, the good news is that the tub can easily be converted to the standard chemical regimen.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we ordered a new Envoy from this dealer exactly 6 weeks ago today. He also promised the 4-6 weeks delivery time frame (Brian). We paid a $6000 deposit on 08/12 and they never ordered the spa! We called at about the 3 week mark every week and it was assured that delivery was on schedule. Last Friday I called up Hot Springs and they said there were no Envoys were on order! After talking with the dealer, we were told that there was an "oversight" and they would order it now with delivery sometime in October. We said forget it and have asked for a full refund. The owner has said that he will refund, but we suspect he may be about to go out of business. We have had two HotSpring products before and have never been treated like this. We are still working with Watkins to ensure a refund from this now unreputable dealer. I would still like to purchase a Hot Spring tub, but this experience has left us wondering if it is worth the hassle. We may use the other dealer in Peachtree city, but we have to get our refund first. Perhaps we are just unlucky customers, but I would be very, very careful about dealing with these people. Sorry for the bad feedback.

[dark rider]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we ordered a new Envoy from this dealer exactly 6 weeks ago today. He also promised the 4-6 weeks delivery time frame (Brian). We paid a $6000 deposit on 08/12 and they never ordered the spa! We called at about the 3 week mark every week and it was assured that delivery was on schedule. Last Friday I called up Hot Springs and they said there were no Envoys were on order! After talking with the dealer, we were told that there was an "oversight" and they would order it now with delivery sometime in October. We said forget it and have asked for a full refund. The owner has said that he will refund, but we suspect he may be about to go out of business. We have had two HotSpring products before and have never been treated like this. We are still working with Watkins to ensure a refund from this now unreputable dealer. I would still like to purchase a Hot Spring tub, but this experience has left us wondering if it is worth the hassle. We may use the other dealer in Peachtree city, but we have to get our refund first. Perhaps we are just unlucky customers, but I would be very, very careful about dealing with these people. Sorry for the bad feedback.

Piper, sorry to hear of the negative experience. What makes you think that it was more than an administrative oversight? The dealer has been around for quite some time, and they have pretty much exclusive rights to the Atlanta market (other than the Peachtree City dealer), who technically doesn't service Atlanta. I have no vested interest, other than the fact that I also ordered there and am about 4 weeks out from my order. I'm supposed to get my subpanel early this coming week, but no word on tub delivery yet. I'm assuming you put the down payment on a credit card? Why not have the dealer do a charge back or if they're slow to react, go directly to the credit card company?

[piper]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we ordered a new Envoy from this dealer exactly 6 weeks ago today. He also promised the 4-6 weeks delivery time frame (Brian). We paid a $6000 deposit on 08/12 and they never ordered the spa! We called at about the 3 week mark every week and it was assured that delivery was on schedule. Last Friday I called up Hot Springs and they said there were no Envoys were on order! After talking with the dealer, we were told that there was an "oversight" and they would order it now with delivery sometime in October. We said forget it and have asked for a full refund. The owner has said that he will refund, but we suspect he may be about to go out of business. We have had two HotSpring products before and have never been treated like this. We are still working with Watkins to ensure a refund from this now unreputable dealer. I would still like to purchase a Hot Spring tub, but this experience has left us wondering if it is worth the hassle. We may use the other dealer in Peachtree city, but we have to get our refund first. Perhaps we are just unlucky customers, but I would be very, very careful about dealing with these people. Sorry for the bad feedback.

Piper, sorry to hear of the negative experience. What makes you think that it was more than an administrative oversight? The dealer has been around for quite some time, and they have pretty much exclusive rights to the Atlanta market (other than the Peachtree City dealer), who technically doesn't service Atlanta. I have no vested interest, other than the fact that I also ordered there and am about 4 weeks out from my order. I'm supposed to get my subpanel early this coming week, but no word on tub delivery yet. I'm assuming you put the down payment on a credit card? Why not have the dealer do a charge back or if they're slow to react, go directly to the credit card company?

Well to be 6 weeks into the order and having called to check on the status every week from week 3; its more than an administrative oversight. At week 6, once they had told me of this "oversight," they told me a new delivery date of October 7th. The following day I called Watkins again and they said the dealer had still not put the order in...Its not like this business has that many players. A couple owns the franchise and then there is Brian and maybe another salesperson/technician. We were also told at purchase that ours was the last of a 16 spa order. Well according to Watkins, the dealer has placed an order for exactly 2 spas in the past 6 weeks. If you do the numbers, that is not a lot of revenue. Also Watkins does not have a 6 week lead time to manufacture these spas. According to the rep, the lead time is 2 weeks plus about 7-10 days shipping. 6 weeks is just so they can sell additional spas before they make their order.

Since I am unsure as to the financial stability of this franchisee, I've decided to take their floor model Envoy with additional discounts. Its supposed to be delivered tomorrow, but I am totally unimpressed. They had $6000 of our money for 6 weeks and did nothing. I am already in contact with the Credit Card company should the dealer fail to deliver or refund our money. For Hot Springs being the best in the business, this is a real let down. I'll update again after delivery/setup. I am a little worried that delivery and installation will be a shambles too. Our last new Spa (a Jacuzzi) was unceremoniously dumped in our backyard by two non-English speaking illegals hired for the day. The set up was, "Here's a bag of chemicals." They also put the steps inside the shell and scratched up the inside. Needless to say we were furious, but that is another story.

[dark rider]

I can see them pushing out delivery lead times so that they can fill a truck and save on shipping, but they should have called you, if it was something they truly were aware of. I'm sure HotSpring has no trouble holding the shipment, so it certainly wasn't an excuse not to put the order in! I'm not really sure when the ordering process is complete, other than they have what appears to be a proprietary system that gives you the quote and records the order once it's finalized. Once our down payment was processed via credit card, they printed out a copy of the order showing the downpayment was received. The financing paperwork was old school carbon copy, and they gave us the 2 yellow copies. 2 orders seems awfully low over the six week period. We had one guy place an order when we were there wet testing the second time, and there were at least several financing carbon copies on the desk when we came in to fill out that paperwork. Maybe they were holding multiple orders for some reason? Either way, congrats on your Envoy and hopefully everything turns out alright with your install! Definitely keep me posted, and I'll follow up with how our order/install turns out.

[rizla1]

Would you consider $5500 a good price for a 2004 Hot Springs Grandee?

Who is the owner of this franchise?

[dark rider]

Would you consider $5500 a good price for a 2004 Hot Springs Grandee?

Who is the owner of this franchise?

Watkins is the parent company of HotSpring and are probably the largest and one of the most reputable of the hot tub manufacturers. $5500 is a bit high for a private sale for an '04 Grandee, but would be reasonable for a dealer refurb. I think $3500 to $4K would be fair, maybe $4500,if it were very clean and had service records.

[rizla1]

Thank you

[THE SPA GUY]

rizla1

I am a little confused on the the other thread you were asking about Marquis, so are you looking at used tubs, or new tubs, and what brands are you looking at...

[rizla1]

I found two spas:

2004 Hot Springs Grandee=$5500-no problems

2004 Marquis Reward=$2900-no problems

Which would you go for?

[dark rider]

Piper, any feedback on the delivery/install?

[JAMES THE HOT TUB GUY]

Piper, any feedback on the delivery/install?

HEY JUST FYI FOR YALL WHO JUST ORDERED A TUB FROM THEM THEY ARE CLOSING THERE DOORS THEY LOST THERE LINE.

[piper]

Piper, any feedback on the delivery/install?

HEY JUST FYI FOR YALL WHO JUST ORDERED A TUB FROM THEM THEY ARE CLOSING THERE DOORS THEY LOST THERE LINE.

Okay, I finally had a chance to reply. I did receive the floor model in good condition. The Delivery was uneventful. In fact it was pretty professional considering what we have been through. I do not know if they are closing their doors or not, but obviously sales are not going very well. The lead salesperson came along and apologized for his part in the whole ordeal. We are happy with the tub and glad to have something rather than risk another 6-8 week wait for a new one that may not show up. If you have any concerns Dark Rider, I'm happy to answer, or my suggestion is to talk directly to Watkins.

[dark rider]

Thanks Piper. I've spoken with Watkins and the owners of the dealership. I've been working with them to try and resolve, and it looks like I will likely be taking delivery as well. I think the dealership is honest and trying to do the right thing, but it is clear that they are hurting financially, and may indeed end up closing. I also spoke with the Peachtree City dealer and they were very understanding, and are willing to work with me should I need service. I'm a bit frustrated at the moment, but am hopeful that it will work out. One thing is for sure... This economy is brutal!

[dark rider]

Finally, after a long 8 weeks... D-Day finally arrived! This afternoon I took delivery of my 2010 HotSpring Grandee in Pearl/Espresso! The install was pretty much uneventful. The sales manager himself brought a crew out to see that it was done right. The tub is filled and heating, currently at 92 degrees degrees, which means I should be operational either late this evening or by tomorrow after work. I can officially confirm now that the dealer is shutting down, so if any of you dealers are looking to take over the Atlanta HotSprings market, it's ripe for the pickings! I'll be sure to post up some pics when I get a chance. For now, I'm just happy to have taken delivery and anxiously awaiting my first soak...

[Razorhog]

Glad everything seems to have worked out for Piper and dark rider. Congratulations on the tubs!

[dark rider]

Thanks Razorhog. Despite the circumstances, the owners of the dealership were stand up people to deal with throughout the process, so it's a shame that they are closing. I just hope whoever ends up either buying the dealership or taking over the HotSprings line for Atlanta is as good. I also spoke with the owner of the Peachtree City dealership (about 30 miles south of me), and she is very personable/responsive as well, so I know that I won't be left without service, if needed.

I was able to squeeze my first soak in last night around 10pm. I tried to talk the wife into joining me, but she was catching up on her DVR shows. I'm kind of glad, because it was nice having a huge tub all to myself! I must have looked like a kid on Christmas playing with all of the lights and jet configurations. Water temp was locked in at 102F, and ambient was in the mid-50's. I soaked for a total of about 40 mins. (2 - 20 minute intervals with a short cool down in between. It felt wonderful, and I slept like a rock last night! The water is so soft with the ACE system, I didn't feel any need to shower afterwards at all.

It's funny now reading back through my initial impressions, and how I was originally leaning toward the Optima, mainly because I loved the footwell and the air/sunscents during the wet test. Both are great features, but after receiving the Grandee, I have no doubts that I made the right decision. The calf jets on the Grandee double as foot jets when you're in the opposite seat... How ingenious is that? You just need to figure out how to use the diverter valves properly, which I didn't fully understand during either of my 2 wet tests. There are a ton of jet variations that you can get with the diverters on the Grandee. Than you have the ability to fine tune each jet, either on the jet face or through a separate air control knob. The only jets that don't have an air knob are the main footwell jets, but they can be dialed back through the diverter as well. I don't know if it's the new filters, but my pumps feel stronger than the Grandee I wet tested as well. The only ones that I liked all the way up were the soothing 7's. Everything else I had to dial back a bit after a minute or so. I still think the Optima has the ability to put out more power through more jets at the same time, but I'm guessing it's because of the bypass filtration coming through the bottom suction fittings. Hotsprings relies more on the clever use of diverters and individual controls to get it's power, without bypassing the filtration. Again, brilliant... I my Grandee!

[spawn]

Worth waiting for - enjoy your nice new tub!