fullspectrum Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 Hello everyone, I have a roughly 20 year old inground liner style pool. This is my first pool which I have now owned for 6 years and with the help of the intenet I have been able to do all the work myself. Great! The bad... When we moved in I noticed that one return line never worked and was cut and plumbed out of the system at the pool equipment/pump area. So now we area rebuilding the backyard and making a new deck so I figured I would excavate that pool return line and replace it. One thing led to another and after finding pipes spliced together underground (a total of 3 different types of pipe) I just decided to go ahead and replace ALL of the plumbing (Pool return lines and skimmer line). Another reason I decided to do this was that we are going to dig post holes for the deck footings and I have no idea where the pipes are underground. So I excavated all the areas adjacent to the pool return lines and skimmer down to the piping under the pool deck. What I found was rigid PVC pipe. It keeps going further into the ground probably close to the bottom of the pool. So that is where I stand right now. I can't build the deck until I get the pool plumbing done. SO...my question is, would it be ok to just cut the pipe and glue on barbed fittings and run new flexible pipe? Any advice on what would be the best course of action here? Is it ok if it's not buried very deep in the ground? Any help is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted July 17, 2010 Report Share Posted July 17, 2010 You should use rigid pipe and glue the fittings. No flex, and no barbed fittings they will eventually leak. The pipe that keeps going further into the ground maybe your main drain, and it should be kept (in the system). Pitfalls of shallow plumbing would be the chance of them freezing (colder climates in the winter), and digging in the yard with the possibility of striking one of them and breaking the pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 Well my main drain has been taken out of the equation at some point in time. The current liner has covered the main drain. As for the pipes going further into the ground they all do that and are all PVC except one return which has a barbed fitting and flex pipe. It's really weird....And further toward the pool equipment it comes out of the ground as black pipe! Then they added some of the white flex line to all the pipes! So from the pool it goes...White Rigid PVC to black flexible pipe to white flex pipe. The pool plumbing is kinda butchered. From the Pool equipment it was the White flex pipe to black flex pipe and I haven't excavated any further along towards the pool. I excavated at all the returns and the Skimmer. My pool pipes will be running under a deck and some interlock so I figured that I would just cut the PVC where I excavated at the pool and add barbed fittings and run new white flexible pipe. I mean at least then it will all be new and fresh. As for the freezing in winter...I was going to run it all at a bit of a slope and make sure I get most of the water out before winter. I currently had one pipe there with a barbed fitting and white flex pipe and no problems for the last 6 years. Or should I just leave well enough alone and use the existing plumbing that's there. There is one return that never worked and I am going to replace anyways. I was wondering as well...Is there any way to glue the white flexible pipe to rigid PVC? WHAT A MESS!!!!! Al this before I can even think about building the deck and interlock! I will try to get pictures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 I currently had one pipe there with a barbed fitting and white flex pipe and no problems for the last 6 years. Or should I just leave well enough alone and use the existing plumbing that's there. There is one return that never worked and I am going to replace anyways. I was wondering as well...Is there any way to glue the white flexible pipe to rigid PVC? WHAT A MESS!!!!! Al this before I can even think about building the deck and interlock! I will try to get pictures... Leaving the barbed fitting would make me nervous, especially if it were to be under concrete deck. You should be able to glue fittings on to the end of flex. I would remove if possible though. One trick i tried with luck, is to glue your fitting on to the flex pipe first, then let it cure completely before gluing to rigid. This helps the fitting bond to the flex without lateral pressure that could come from gluing to the rigid too soon, and develop a leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted July 18, 2010 Report Share Posted July 18, 2010 So from the pool it goes...White Rigid PVC to black flexible pipe to white flex pipe. Note: The black pipe is probably "Black-Poly", which cannot be glued with PVC glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 Yeah the black tube is "black poly" and I will just take it out of the system. I'm not overly worried about using barbed fittings because they will be under the concrete pool deck but I will still be able to dig down to get to them if they leak. There is only one that will be under some interlocking stone. We changed our plan and are only going to have the deck run half the width of the house and interlock the rest so in the worst case I will have to rip up some interlock. I don't really like the idea of cutting into the good PVC pipe at the skimmer and the returns. Like I said before though one return already has a barbed fitting with flex pipe at the pool side so I'm not sure why it is all rigid PVC except this one return with the flex??? Maybe had a leak before perhaps.. I figure if I put all new flex pipe at least I know it's all new and I will know where everything is in the event of a leak... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted July 21, 2010 Report Share Posted July 21, 2010 A note of caution about using flex PVC underground. Buried flexible PVC can be susceptible to insect damage. It is not resistant to insects; in particular, termites have been known to eat it. Research has shown flexible PVC does not attract termites, however if flexible PVC is placed in between a termite nest and a food source, they may try to eat their way through it. (They are too dumb to go around it.) FlexPVC.com will not be responsible for failure due to insect damage, nor rocks rubbing against the pipe and wearing a hole in it. You can lace your backfill and trenches with boric acid to reduce the likelihood of termites, but it won't last forever. If you have termite infestation and want to use Flexible PVC pipe, you should retreat your trenches every few years to be safe, just like you do your house, garage, etc.http://flexpvc.com/application-guidelines.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted July 22, 2010 Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I figure if I put all new flex pipe at least I know it's all new and I will know where everything is in the event of a leak... Isn't flex more expensive? Why would you pay more for pipe that isn't as durable as rigid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2010 I figure if I put all new flex pipe at least I know it's all new and I will know where everything is in the event of a leak... Isn't flex more expensive? Why would you pay more for pipe that isn't as durable as rigid? Well I may be wrong with this assumption but if I run rigid PVC pipe only 1-2 feet down and the ground shifts during winter freezing/thawing won't rigid PVC be susceptible to the pipe breaking or developing cracks at the joints. Let me know if I'm wrong..then I will just dig a 2 foot deep trench along the pool and run the rigid PVC with glued fittings which I would rather have anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2010 So nobody really said anything about me running rigid PVC only 1 or 2 feet below the surface....If I do this will the rigid PVC crack or develop leaks because of the winter freezing the ground and shifting causing stress on the joints etc....or am I ok to run rigid PVC in shallow ground???? ANYONE???? I need to do this pretty soon..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted July 24, 2010 Report Share Posted July 24, 2010 18" is a standard that is used in my area, Calif. Check your local codes to see if this is deep enough. Note: If you live in freezing areas, you should be winterizing your plumbing/pool anyway. So if you have no water in your pipes, this should not be a concern. Rigid is also a standard for direct burial, and will probably do better than flex (in the long run). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 18" is a standard that is used in my area, Calif. Check your local codes to see if this is deep enough. Note: If you live in freezing areas, you should be winterizing your plumbing/pool anyway. So if you have no water in your pipes, this should not be a concern. Rigid is also a standard for direct burial, and will probably do better than flex (in the long run). I'm not concerned about water in the pipes freezing...what I'm worrying about is if the RIGID PVC is not buried below the frost line will the ground moving during winter freezing cause stress on the pipe and joints and crack it. I'm not talking about the water in the pipes I'm talking about the frozen ground the pipe is sitting in cracking it.... So if I bury it in ground that freezes will it cause it to crack from the frozen ground heaving up and down with freezing/thawing cycles????? This would not affect FLEX PVC...but will it affect RIGID PVC???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 Rigid PVC is buried all of the time with no problems. The ground does not move that much. Use rigid PVC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 You join this forum, you ask of our professional opinion, Yet you resist it. You must own stock in flex pipe... Don't you think that if rigid did not do well in freezing areas, that we would tell you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakeusa Posted July 25, 2010 Report Share Posted July 25, 2010 Do not plumb your pool in flex pipe, this is only used for spa's around to connect the jets and inlets-- but that is connected to schedule 40 PVC pipe that is glued. All pool builders (that I know) use 2" SCHEDULE 40 PVC pipe for the drains and 1 1/2" for the returns-- pretty standard and I believe it is code-- as your pool lines are under PRESSURE. Normal PVC will crack or break under water pressure. If you need to scab a fitting together from black to Schedule 40 then do so, but this would be a weak link. I also think your EXTRA return may have originally for a Pool side pressure cleaner. If not used then it may have been plugged. Also use purple primer and heavy set PVC glue. You can get all your parts at Lowes-- not HD as they for some reason don't seem to stock much 2" Sch40 pipe and fittings. IT WILL NOT crack or break underground unless- 1) you don't blow out or get the water out in the winter if your area freezes 2) you drive heavy equipment over the pipes 3) you put the pipes over rocks-- not a sand base. Otherwise you should be fine to re-pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 IT WILL NOT crack or break underground unless- 1) you don't blow out or get the water out in the winter if your area freezes 2) you drive heavy equipment over the pipes 3) you put the pipes over rocks-- not a sand base. Otherwise you should be fine to re-pipe. Ok so I should use Schedule 40 rigid PVC pipe....just to be super clear here...is it ok to run it only a few feet below the surface in an area where the ground freezes??? It sounds like you are saying it won't break or crack from ground freezing buried at any depth...am I right??? I just want to be sure because I'm only burying it a few feet underground. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted July 26, 2010 Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 Where do you live, Antarctica? Is nitrogen a gas or a liquid where you are? Does helium routinely condense into a BoseEinstein condensate? Do you live on Neptune's moon, Triton? Seriously, you seem to be very concerned about the cold. Where do you live? PVC Schedule 40 Pressure Pipe should be marked "ASTM D1785". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2010 Where do you live, Antarctica? Is nitrogen a gas or a liquid where you are? Does helium routinely condense into a Bose–Einstein condensate? Do you live on Neptune's moon, Triton? Seriously, you seem to be very concerned about the cold. Where do you live? PVC Schedule 40 Pressure Pipe should be marked "ASTM D1785". I live in Toronto Canada. I'm just worried because I see fence posts here lifted up from freezing ground so I thought if the pipe is not below frost line it could lift it and it may crack the fittings. I'm a noob ....I need to ask....tell me if I'm wrong and I'll head over to Lowes and get the Rigid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quantumchromodynamics Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 You should be fine with rigid as long as you clear the water out of the lines. Check if there are any local building codes regarding buried pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkyjon Posted July 27, 2010 Report Share Posted July 27, 2010 Put the rigid pipe in a loose sleeve- 3" drain pipe will easily hold 2" PVC, and allow plenty of movement in case the ground heaves. If you're really paranoid, upgrade the PVC to Schedule 80, and upsize it one size to allow for the extra wall thickness. Don't use flex PVC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simple Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Dude, relax: PVC pipes perform well at very low temperatures and to highlight the strength of PVC pipes in extreme conditions. The impact test shows how well a solid wall pipe, made of a standard PVC formula with no impact modifiers, of 110mm diameter responds to a weight of 8Kg being dropped from a height of 2m. Just don't drop anything heavier than 8kg from any higher than 6.56 ft,and please note that PC has a great point. We don't give you advice that we read out of a book, we have all done this for a living for years. LOL quantum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Did some major trench digging today and I'm sunburned and really tired... So from what you guys are saying it's ok to run Rigid PVC 1-2 feet below the surface in a region where the ground freezes and it won't crack from the ground heaving during winter. Just as an option, what are the guidelines for buring black POLY underground? I noticed that it seems to collapse a bit under the weight of the ground? How deep can you bury this stuff? ALSO WILL IT COLLAPSE when used for a complete run from the suction/skimmer intake to the pump? I mean if I use it exclusively from the skimmer to the pump/filter area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugman1400 Posted July 28, 2010 Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Did some major trench digging today and I'm sunburned and really tired... So from what you guys are saying it's ok to run Rigid PVC 1-2 feet below the surface in a region where the ground freezes and it won't crack from the ground heaving during winter. Just as an option, what are the guidelines for buring black POLY underground? I noticed that it seems to collapse a bit under the weight of the ground? How deep can you bury this stuff? ALSO WILL IT COLLAPSE when used for a complete run from the suction/skimmer intake to the pump? I mean if I use it exclusively from the skimmer to the pump/filter area? Can we see some pictures? This is starting to sound like a great learning opp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2010 Can we see some pictures? This is starting to sound like a great learning opp? Funny you ask I just took some pictures this morning....LOG IN TO SEE THE PICTURES OR CUT AND PASTE THE LINK INTO YOUR BROWSER..Here they are.... The Patient The Skimmer pipe One of the Return Pipes...You can see the metal support for the concrete deck just to the left of the pipe. The Trench...It must have been hell digging those trenches during Word War I... A Shot of where the deck I'm going to build is going once the pool is fixed. My Summer was over before it began.... The Pump Area....just as much of a butcher job as the rest of the pool. I will redo this also....eventually.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullspectrum Posted July 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2010 I don't know why this is such are difficult decision for me??? PVC? FLEX SPA PIPE?? or Black POLY??? If I use black POLY on a suction line/skimmer line will it collapse from suction over time? Is this a possibility?? I would rather run the Black Poly because it's easier and it won't crack. All I need to worry about is making sure the barbed fittings it's connected to are done right. Any comments on this??? ALSO IF I GO PVC.... When laying Rigid PVC down should I pour a base of sand or crushed limestone screening into the trench to make it smoother and flatter. The ground I'm putting the pipe into is clay and there are a lot of little rocks. I thought it might be better to pour some kind of bed into the trench for the pipe to sit on....Any thoughts??? I NEED SOME HELP WITH THIS. I'm pretty much ready to start laying the pipe down. Thanks in advance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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