Natural Watercare System?

[hottublady]

I am having a pool built and it will have a heater and it will stay around 98 degrees. Is there an all natural watercare system for a pool? Not a salt generator that generates chlorine or bromine but a REAL NATURAL system?

[polyvue]

I am having a pool built and it will have a heater and it will stay around 98 degrees. Is there an all natural watercare system for a pool? Not a salt generator that generates chlorine or bromine but a REAL NATURAL system?

A 98-degree pool? Where do you live, Equador? Assuming that this is not just a large spa but a pool that contains many thousands of gallons of water, this will be expensive (to say the least) to maintain. I hope you plan on keeping it covered when you're not swimming.

The so-called Natural systems often dose the pool with minerals (silver, copper) and you have only to read up on the problems of sanitation and staining with these systems - in this forum and others - and you will be dissuaded from this approach.

[waterbear]

I am having a pool built and it will have a heater and it will stay around 98 degrees. Is there an all natural watercare system for a pool? Not a salt generator that generates chlorine or bromine but a REAL NATURAL system?

Ain't no such thing if you want sanitized water, especially if you plan on keeping the pool at almost spa temperatures! Ionizers and mineral systems are not natural, they put coppper, silver, and/or zinc in the water, either by electrolysis of metal rods or by using such chemicals as copper sulfate and silver nitrate. Last time I checked these were chemical systems of sanitations (and not very good ones at that!) Ozone and UV light are not prirmary sanitizers (sincethey do not have a residual effect) but can be useful as secondary sanitizers in some circumstances. (And ozone is another chemical that is not 'natural'.) Magnets, electronic resonators, nascent oxygen, free radicals, etc. are snake oil and if you are inclined to invest in one of these systems let me sell you the tin foil hat first and then show you the bridge I have for sale in Brooklyn!

There are only 3 (count em, 3!) EPA approved primary sanitizers--chlorine, bromine, and biguanide or PHMB (Baquacil, SoftSwim, Revacil, etc.). Chlorine is the easiest and least expensive to use and the most effective. Biguanide the hardest, most prone to problems, and the most expensive (but useful for the very small group of people who suffer a TRUE allergy to halogens).

[wsommariva]

Well, we have had the CLfree system in our pool for three years and it's great. No chlorine or any other chemicals. Copper is maintained at .5ppm to .7ppm which is below the 1.3ppm allowed in drinking water. Titanium is also used. "Natural watercare system?" Don't know if it's possible.

I'm not a chemistry expert, but it's nice to swim in. And I don't know about that 98 degree situation but the company is headquartered in Arizona.

[waterbear]

Well, we have had the CLfree system in our pool for three years and it's great. No chlorine or any other chemicals. Copper is maintained at .5ppm to .7ppm which is below the 1.3ppm allowed in drinking water. Titanium is also used. "Natural watercare system?" Don't know if it's possible.

I'm not a chemistry expert, but it's nice to swim in. And I don't know about that 98 degree situation but the company is headquartered in Arizona.

If you have a copper or copper/silver system you do NOT have a chemical free pool! The metal ions in your water ARE chemical sanitizing agents, just not very effective ones and not EPA approved residual sanitizers. even at .5 ppm copper can turn hair green and stain pool surfaces. The titanium is used to generate oxygen as an oxidizing agent and it is a pseudoscience snake oil. (actually they claim that hydroxyl ions are the oxidizing agent and as far at that goes hydroxyl ions can easily be produced in any solution by adding an alkaline substance such as lye or soda ash. Pseudoscience at its' best! As far as that goes, oxygen is also a chemical.

As far as comparing the levels Vs. drinking water you are comparing apples and oranges. You are not drinking your pool, you are swimming in it. For example, the limit for chlorine in drinking water is 4 ppm but most state health departments allow commercial pools to operate at 10ppm chlorine or less. Also there is cyanuric acid present in outdoor pools to protect against the effects of UV light on the chlorine and this chemical is not found in drinking water except as a contaminant so once again, apples and oranges.

Here is a page debunking some of the psuedoscience that CLfree promotes

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/aquacrack.html#ELYTIC

Scroll down to Electrolytic water treatment

then down to Other electrolytic processes, completely off-the-wall

Though this is talking about the competing Ecosmarte system it is identical to the Clfree system.

[wsommariva]

Well, we have had the CLfree system in our pool for three years and it's great. No chlorine or any other chemicals. Copper is maintained at .5ppm to .7ppm which is below the 1.3ppm allowed in drinking water. Titanium is also used. "Natural watercare system?" Don't know if it's possible.

I'm not a chemistry expert, but it's nice to swim in. And I don't know about that 98 degree situation but the company is headquartered in Arizona.

If you have a copper or copper/silver system you do NOT have a chemical free pool! The metal ions in your water ARE chemical sanitizing agents, just not very effective ones and not EPA approved residual sanitizers. even at .5 ppm copper can turn hair green and stain pool surfaces. The titanium is used to generate oxygen as an oxidizing agent and it is a pseudoscience snake oil. (actually they claim that hydroxyl ions are the oxidizing agent and as far at that goes hydroxyl ions can easily be produced in any solution by adding an alkaline substance such as lye or soda ash. Pseudoscience at its' best! As far as that goes, oxygen is also a chemical.

As far as comparing the levels Vs. drinking water you are comparing apples and oranges. You are not drinking your pool, you are swimming in it. For example, the limit for chlorine in drinking water is 4 ppm but most state health departments allow commercial pools to operate at 10ppm chlorine or less. Also there is cyanuric acid present in outdoor pools to protect against the effects of UV light on the chlorine and this chemical is not found in drinking water except as a contaminant so once again, apples and oranges.

Here is a page debunking some of the psuedoscience that CLfree promotes

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/aquacrack.html#ELYTIC

Scroll down to Electrolytic water treatment

then down to Other electrolytic processes, completely off-the-wall

Though this is talking about the competing Ecosmarte system it is identical to the Clfree system.

We don't have green hair and don't have stains. I said I'm not a chemist. Just said it's nice to swim in CLfree water.

[chem geek]

Having metal ions is certainly better than nothing at all. Metal ions are possibly OK to prevent uncontrolled bacterial growth for some bacteria, but may not be fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease and they aren't fast enough to kill the heartier bacteria nor fast enough at killing viruses. For example, this paper shows that copper ions do a 90% inactivation of Herpes Simplex Virus in 30 minutes at 100-200 ppm, but that is far, far higher in concentration than found in pools and spas where the copper is usually < 0.3 ppm in order to prevent staining. This paper shows that silver ions have virtually no effect on vacciniavirus, adenovirus, VSV, poliovirus, HVJ, but that with herpes simplex virus there is a 5-log kill in 60 minutes (roughly a 90% kill in about 5 minutes), but at over 3200 ppb compared to the usual limit of 20 ppb to prevent silver staining.

So it's a spectrum of risk and there are no regulations governing what people use in their residential pools or spas. You can soak in raw sewage as far as the government is concerned. However, you won't find any metal ion systems in public pools without at least some chlorine in them because metal ions alone are not EPA approved for sanitation of swimming pools and do not pass EPA DIS/TSS-12.

The only exception that is approved is Nature2 (which has silver ions) when used with non-chlorine shock (MPS), but this is ONLY approved at hot spa temperatures. So if you want a safe sanitary system without using halogens regularly, then a silver ion system with MPS would be the way to go. Everything else is higher on the spectrum of risk.

[wsommariva]

Chem geek question. Would you know if a mainatance (weekly) dose of potmonopersulfate would remove all risks of bacteria/virus transmission.

[chem geek]

Potassium monopersulfate (MPS aka non-chlorine shock) is not a sanitizer; it is an oxidizer. So no, using MPS alone would not kill pathogens quickly enough. It is the very specific combination of silver ions with MPS at hot water temperature (100-104ºF) as found in a spa that is able to kill bacteria fast enough to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 (which is used to test disinfectants for spas as well as pools). The Nature2 instructions are very explicit about maintaining an MPS level when using their system. MPS is not EPA approved for use as a sanitizer in pools even if silver ion is present because the water temperature is too low. MPS is used as a supplemental oxidizer in pools, though normally this is for indoor pools or for commercial/public pools to help control Combined Chlorine (CC). Residential outdoor pools exposed to sunlight normally do not have problems with CC and there is no need for use of a supplemental oxidizer nor for regular shocking.

There are no regulations for what you use to sanitize your pool or spa. You can soak in raw sewage as far as the government is concerned. The only chemical regulations are FIFRA rules for labeling of pesticides so any product claiming to sanitize or disinfect or kill bacteria or algae for use in pools or spas must pass EPA DIS/TSS-12. Being registered with the EPA as a pesticide is NOT the same thing since algaecides are registered but do not kill pathogens quickly enough to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12. There are rules at the state and local level for commercial/public pools and they all require an EPA approved sanitizer of which there are only three: chlorine, bromine or Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB.

Is there a specific concern you have about using chlorine? The amount of disinfection by-products (DBP) in a residential pool are orders-of-magnitude lower than in commercial/public pools due to the huge differences in bather load. Also, when the pool is properly managed with an appropriate FC/CYA ratio, the active chlorine level is roughly equivalent to a pool with an FC of 0.1 ppm with no CYA.

[waterbear]

Bottom line is this, there are only 3 EPA approved residual sanitizers for pools so if you want sanitized water your choices are chlorine, bromine, or biquande, and of the three chlorine is certainly the most effective and the best choice for an outdoor pool.

[wsommariva]

Why do we use a non chlorine system? My wife wanted it and there is nothing I can say to change her mind. Period. If it were up to me I wouldn't even have a pool. But, we have the CLfree, and it works well keeping the water crystal clear. I am now a bit concerned about being properly sanitized. Is there a test that I can use to check for bacteria?

[waterbear]

Copper will keep the water clear since it is an algaecide (just look at all the algaecide at the pool store that contain copper sulfate!) As far as a sanitizer, it really is not. People are lulled into a false sense of security because the pool never turns green when it is possible to have a pool with algae and sanitized water (at least as long as the chlorine holds).

The problem is that pools need a fast acting residual sanitizer since bacteria are introduced into the pool with ever bather, every bird dropping, every animal that makes it's way to the water, etc.

As far as bacterial testing. You can have it done but it will only tell you the state at the time you test. If it is when the pool has not had a bioload for a period of time it will very possibly test safe. However, if you test after there has been a bather load and microbes that have not had time to be killed are present you could get different results. Also, if there is a delay in testing the copper in the water could make the water appear safe when it was not at the time of bathing.

Kill times for different pathogens are important . The CT (contact time to kill) for copper are very long so it sometimes is used for drinking water, since the water can sit in a vessel before use. A pool is a different sort of system and pathogens need to be killed quickly as they are introduced with each bather so they are not transmitted.

[chem geek]

It's a spectrum of risk and the risk in a low bather load residential pool is far lower than a commercial/public pool since you don't have the person-to-person transmission risk of essentially swimming in a communal bath shared with hundreds to thousands (over time) of people. Nevertheless, even in your own pool you do have the fecal-to-oral route from your own body. Your pool is not as sanitary as one that uses chlorine -- I don't know what else to say. It's not as unsanitary as a pool with nothing in it at all -- no metal ions, no ozone, etc. -- but it's not as sanitary as a pool with chlorine.

[wsommariva]

"When the Pool water touches these Titanium / Platinum plates we get the actual electro-physical separation of water molecule (H2o into H2-O). This separation forms free oxygen atoms and hydroxyl (OH). This process is called Oxidation. The OXYGEN takes the place of Chlorine as the sanitizer and Burns up the Viral and Bacterial contaminates in your pool." CLfree literature

Comments?

[waterbear]

"When the Pool water touches these Titanium / Platinum plates we get the actual electro-physical separation of water molecule (H2o into H2-O). This separation forms free oxygen atoms and hydroxyl (OH). This process is called Oxidation. The OXYGEN takes the place of Chlorine as the sanitizer and Burns up the Viral and Bacterial contaminates in your pool." CLfree literature

Comments?

Pure pseudoscience! Just ask any chemist! (And I do have a chemistry background.)

OH and O are not gases, but rather ions, and cannot exist in water. If they are formed at the electrodes of the cell they are going to be very transient and only in the vicinity of the plates If it were possible for O- to form and stay in the water then there would be some validity to their claim but it is really not possible. Now it is true that hydrogen gas can form at one electrode and oxygen gas at the other, the actual reaction being 2H2O ==>2H2+O2 and not H2O==> H2+O- since the O- atoms combine into O2 (oxygen gas) almost instantly and well before they can really do much to sanitize the water. (However if they are any chloride ions in the water and they very probably are, then instead of O2 gas it is possible to form Cl2 gas at the plate...yes chlorine!) Oxygen is a weak oxidizer in the molecular form. Atomic oxygen is a more reactive oxidizer but that is not what is formed here. They are playing with words on the good bet that their average customer does not have an understanding of chemistry. If they were forming ozone, O3, then yes, it is a strong oxidizer since it is unstable and give off an oxygen atom O- but O2 is a stable, covalent molecule that has very little activity in comparison. Anyway, Ozone is formed by either running water over UV light or by using a high voltage current (corona discharge). Also even ozone is not a residual sanitizer and oxidizer and, in fact, there is supposed to be no ozone present in the water once it enters the pool since ozone is toxic.

[waterbear]

"When the Pool water touches these Titanium / Platinum plates we get the actual electro-physical separation of water molecule (H2o into H2-O). This separation forms free oxygen atoms and hydroxyl (OH). This process is called Oxidation.

No, this process is called electrolysis! They have such a poor understanding of chemistry they can't even get their terms right, and they are betting their potential customers have n even poorer understanding. If you don't believe me then google he terms "electrolysis of water" and "oxidation".

The OXYGEN takes the place of Chlorine as the sanitizer and Burns up the Viral and Bacterial contaminates in your pool." CLfree literature

Comments?

Oxygen gas is not a sanitizer, period. Atomic oxygen is an oxidizer but it is not produced by this system, period. While you are at it you might want to also google "pseudoscience".

[chem geek]

Electrolysis of water can produce some free radicals, but the quantity is very low unless you use very specialized materials and equipment (titanium and platinum are not specialized and are standard for regular electrolysis of water) and even then it's mostly oxygen that is produced. Technically, one electron is removed from H₂O to create H⁺ and OH• (or from OH^- to form OH• or to form O•^- and H⁺) with the latter being a hydroxyl free radical, but this is very reactive and usually another electron is taken to form O• and another H⁺ so now we have atomic oxygen, but that is also highly reactive and combines with another O• to form oxygen gas. In other words, they are just describing standard electrolysis of water with no proof of any substantial creation of free radicals persisting long enough to do any good.

Also, it is still a circulation system (just like ozone or UV) that leaves no residual sanitizer in the water. That means that any bacteria that get to surfaces to grow can readily form biofilms and continue to grow. It also means that any fecal matter from you or other bathers will stay in the water for hours because it takes 4.6 turnovers of the full pool volume for 99% to get circulated through the electrolysis system and as I noted, anything adhering to pool surfaces never gets circulated. As I had said before, the risk is low, but with chlorine any bacteria that gets loose from your fecal matter will have 99% of it killed in around one minute. The copper ions in the water will take around 40 minutes for an equivalent kill (silver ion is more like 10-20 minutes for a similar kill) though with chlorine viruses also get inactivated fairly quickly while with metal ions they do not.

Ironically, if you have enough salt in your pool, that electrolysis system you are using will probably be producing a small amount of chlorine as well, but not enough to retain a residual in the water unless the salt levels get very high.

A lot of the pseudo-science on the Cl Free website is similar to that of EcoSmarte that I wrote about in this thread.

[wsommariva]

OK, Well I thank you two for the information.

[waterbear]

OK, Well I thank you two for the information.

You are welcome. I know is is disconcerting to find out you have been 'taken' by a product manufacturer but, unfortunately, it is more common than not.

This is why the saying "Caveat emptor" exists.