Repair/replace? Costco/dealer?

[njmurvin]

Sorry for the long post . . . and I guess the title should have said "... Costco/buying used".

I have an old (~20yrs) Sundance "Cabaret" above ground spa. A couple of years ago, it started leaking (not sure of the source), leaked down to about the seat level and we just stopped using or doing anything with it. Prior to that, the heater, pump, etc. was all working. Recently, I decided to try to resolve the leak and get it up and running. I drained the water that was in it, cleaned the shell and filled it up. I discovered that (probably because it sat so long unused), now the pump wouldn't come on. The controls light up and the spa light turns on/off, but that's about it - no circ pump, no air pump, no heater, nothing else works. I called a repair guy to come over and evaluate if it was worth fixing. He came, played around with the control board, shunted the safety magnet sensors (so it would operate with the cover off) and concluded that the control board must be failing. He was heading back to the shop because he thought he had one to swap out and try. Never heard from him again (he spent about an hour and never even billed me). BTW, it leaked down again within a day or so and didn't appear to be leaking from any of the equipment (pointing suspicion to plumbing within the foam).

So, number one question: Is it really worth trying to fix this old spa with a probable leak within the foam? I can only assume it will also need a new pump and heater.

Number two, if I replace it, I'm torn between buying a quality used spa and getting the hotly discussed Costco Evolution spa. For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000. Would I be better off with something like that and spending whatever to disinfect and refurbish (if needed) or get the new one from Costco. My spa is so old, I'm sure the technological advances on both of these choices make for vastly superior product to the one I have. That said, the Sundance did last a LONG TIME relatively trouble-free.

One last comment . . . my spa is buried into a (elevated) false floor of a pretty large gazebo. I will have to do some significant demolition to remove the surrounding flooring to get the old spa out and bring in a new one. That is one factor that leans me toward trying again for a repair of the old spa. But, if that doesn't make sense, I'm willing to tear out and rebuild the floor.

Thanks in advanced for your learned advice.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Sorry for the long post . . . and I guess the title should have said "... Costco/buying used".

I have an old (~20yrs) Sundance "Cabaret" above ground spa. A couple of years ago, it started leaking (not sure of the source), leaked down to about the seat level and we just stopped using or doing anything with it. Prior to that, the heater, pump, etc. was all working. Recently, I decided to try to resolve the leak and get it up and running. I drained the water that was in it, cleaned the shell and filled it up. I discovered that (probably because it sat so long unused), now the pump wouldn't come on. The controls light up and the spa light turns on/off, but that's about it - no circ pump, no air pump, no heater, nothing else works. I called a repair guy to come over and evaluate if it was worth fixing. He came, played around with the control board, shunted the safety magnet sensors (so it would operate with the cover off) and concluded that the control board must be failing. He was heading back to the shop because he thought he had one to swap out and try. Never heard from him again (he spent about an hour and never even billed me). BTW, it leaked down again within a day or so and didn't appear to be leaking from any of the equipment (pointing suspicion to plumbing within the foam).

So, number one question: Is it really worth trying to fix this old spa with a probable leak within the foam? I can only assume it will also need a new pump and heater.

Number two, if I replace it, I'm torn between buying a quality used spa and getting the hotly discussed Costco Evolution spa. For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000. Would I be better off with something like that and spending whatever to disinfect and refurbish (if needed) or get the new one from Costco. My spa is so old, I'm sure the technological advances on both of these choices make for vastly superior product to the one I have. That said, the Sundance did last a LONG TIME relatively trouble-free.

One last comment . . . my spa is buried into a (elevated) false floor of a pretty large gazebo. I will have to do some significant demolition to remove the surrounding flooring to get the old spa out and bring in a new one. That is one factor that leans me toward trying again for a repair of the old spa. But, if that doesn't make sense, I'm willing to tear out and rebuild the floor.

Thanks in advanced for your learned advice.

A 20 year old spa that is leaking and has control issues (at a minimum) would lead me to say

go with a good used spa like the 3 yr old $3k Hot Spring if you're on a tight budget and take a saws-all to the old one and get it out in pieces from the inside out to avoid the flooring issues. Fixing the old one (and getting it out to fix it) sounds like possibly a money pit and who knows how far you'll have to go.

[JerimiahR]

For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000.

If your only choices are a Costco tub, versus a 3 year old Hot Spring Vanguard for $3,000.... it's a no-brainer. The Hot Spring is a completely different item compared to the Costco products. Much better hot tub - performance, reliability, construction, parts quality, tech support, parts availability, long term peace of mind, energy consumption, etc... it's all a major difference.

You might also stop by your local Hot Spring dealer and look at some of their new products as well. Most comparable would be the new Hot Spot Relay and Tempo models which are extremely popular for us here in Montana right now. We've had several people opt for the new Hot Spot spas over Costco spas that have already owned Costco sold hot tubs before. They're all very happy with their new Hot Spots.

There's an inherent quality difference between the Costco tubs and anything you can buy through a local dealer.

[njmurvin]

A 20 year old spa that is leaking and has control issues (at a minimum) would lead me to say

go with a good used spa like the 3 yr old $3k Hot Spring if you're on a tight budget and take a saws-all to the old one and get it out in pieces from the inside out to avoid the flooring issues. Fixing the old one (and getting it out to fix it) sounds like possibly a money pit and who knows how far you'll have to go.

That's pretty much the logic that has led me to shop for a replacement. I hate putting in good money after bad. I actually considered the saws-all approach. But, I have to remove the floor anyway to get the new spa in. So, it will depend on how much it would cost to remove and dispose of the old one in one piece versus the cost of a rented dumpster to toss the cut up pieces. As for budget, I read on another post that new spas take a big depreciation hit in the first couple of years (not unlike cars). I really don't want to spend more than $5k.

[DK117]

For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000.

If your only choices are a Costco tub, versus a 3 year old Hot Spring Vanguard for $3,000.... it's a no-brainer. The Hot Spring is a completely different item compared to the Costco products. Much better hot tub - performance, reliability, construction, parts quality, tech support, parts availability, long term peace of mind, energy consumption, etc... it's all a major difference.

You might also stop by your local Hot Spring dealer and look at some of their new products as well. Most comparable would be the new Hot Spot Relay and Tempo models which are extremely popular for us here in Montana right now. We've had several people opt for the new Hot Spot spas over Costco spas that have already owned Costco sold hot tubs before. They're all very happy with their new Hot Spots.

There's an inherent quality difference between the Costco tubs and anything you can buy through a local dealer.

Wow, JerimiahR, you're normally a pretty level headed objective poster, but this last one is not at all objective.

1) Strong does not equal Costco nor it's previous offerings.

2) Just as you're selling many new Hot Spots, Strong is selling 40 spas to Costco daily.

3) Any local dealer is better than Costco? At best that's an opinion.

4) You've failed to mention the most important part of the post, if this Vanguard is such a superior tub, why is it for sale after three years. I'm sure there are valid reasons, but it's also a huge risk.

DK117

[njmurvin]

I know the general opinion around here is that the Evolution spa is inferior to the others mentioned. But, (isn't there always a BUT?) I live in So Calif and it doesn't get horribly cold here. I mention this because there is one particularly attractive feature of the Evolution spa. You can get to all of the jets/plumbing by simply removing side panels. This sure seems like a HUGE plus for tracing leaks. The downside of this is the degree of insulation (and no one has really proven just how inferior their system is). With a leak of my own and after reading several threads about 10 year old Tiger River models with chronic leaks, it makes me wonder. How much of a penalty (in my climate) will there be for the presumed lesser insulation?

[njmurvin]

For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000.

If your only choices are a Costco tub, versus a 3 year old Hot Spring Vanguard for $3,000.... it's a no-brainer. The Hot Spring is a completely different item compared to the Costco products. Much better hot tub - performance, reliability, construction, parts quality, tech support, parts availability, long term peace of mind, energy consumption, etc... it's all a major difference.

You might also stop by your local Hot Spring dealer and look at some of their new products as well. Most comparable would be the new Hot Spot Relay and Tempo models which are extremely popular for us here in Montana right now. We've had several people opt for the new Hot Spot spas over Costco spas that have already owned Costco sold hot tubs before. They're all very happy with their new Hot Spots.

There's an inherent quality difference between the Costco tubs and anything you can buy through a local dealer.

Wow, JerimiahR, you're normally a pretty level headed objective poster, but this last one is not at all objective.

1) Strong does not equal Costco nor it's previous offerings.

2) Just as you're selling many new Hot Spots, Strong is selling 40 spas to Costco daily.

3) Any local dealer is better than Costco? At best that's an opinion.

4) You've failed to mention the most important part of the post, if this Vanguard is such a superior tub, why is it for sale after three years. I'm sure there are valid reasons, but it's also a huge risk.

DK117

LOL - Thanks, DK117, for keeping it objective. I have only read a couple of threads in here and there does seem to be a bias against Costco which doesn't surprise me because the 40 tubs a day they sell are not going through dealers' inventories. But, even the Strong Tech guy on the other thread admits the Costco version has lesser components than their dealer models.

BTW, the owner of the Vanguard claims a skin condition is forcing the sale. I hope the spa didn't cause that

Also, I can only imagine the economy is behind some of the late model spa resales (people losing their homes and salvaging where they can). Another guy has a 2008 Tiger River Bengal for sale for around $2700.

[DK117]

For example, there is a 3yr old Hot Springs Vanguard in my area for sale for $3000.

If your only choices are a Costco tub, versus a 3 year old Hot Spring Vanguard for $3,000.... it's a no-brainer. The Hot Spring is a completely different item compared to the Costco products. Much better hot tub - perforhttp://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showuser=27672mance, reliability, construction, parts quality, tech support, parts availability, long term peace of mind, energy consumption, etc... it's all a major difference.

You might also stop by your local Hot Spring dealer and look at some of their new products as well. Most comparable would be the new Hot Spot Relay and Tempo models which are extremely popular for us here in Montana right now. We've had several people opt for the new Hot Spot spas over Costco spas that have already owned Costco sold hot tubs before. They're all very happy with their new Hot Spots.

There's an inherent quality difference between the Costco tubs and anything you can buy through a local dealer.

Wow, JerimiahR, you're normally a pretty level headed objective poster, but this last one is not at all objective.

1) Strong does not equal Costco nor it's previous offerings.

2) Just as you're selling many new Hot Spots, Strong is selling 40 spas to Costco daily.

3) Any local dealer is better than Costco? At best that's an opinion.

4) You've failed to mention the most important part of the post, if this Vanguard is such a superior tub, why is it for sale after three years. I'm sure there are valid reasons, but it's also a huge risk.

DK117

LOL - Thanks, DK117, for keeping it objective. I have only read a couple of threads in here and there does seem to be a bias against Costco which doesn't surprise me because the 40 tubs a day they sell are not going through dealers' inventories. But, even the Strong Tech guy on the other thread admits the Costco version has lesser components than their dealer models.

BTW, the owner of the Vanguard claims a skin condition is forcing the sale. I hope the spa didn't cause that

Also, I can only imagine the economy is behind some of the late model spa resales (people losing their homes and salvaging where they can). Another guy has a 2008 Tiger River Bengal for sale for around $2700.

njmurvin, what type of return policy are you getting off this $3000 or $2700 tub? What sort of dealer support? I too started looking last year at used spas. After three close calls, I gave up.

Good Luck! Spa shopping on a $5000K budget seems intimidating, but is doable.

DK117

PS what skin condition? Me and my family have some skin conditions, the hot tub didn't worsen or better the condition.

[njmurvin]

njmurvin, what type of return policy are you getting off this $3000 or $2700 tub? What sort of dealer support? I too started looking last year at used spas. After three close calls, I gave up.

Good Luck! Spa shopping on a $5000K budget seems intimidating, but is doable.

Obviously, there's no dealer support or return policy on the used spa. But, with the $2k difference in cost to me, there's some wiggle room to fix things. How much can be wrong with a 3 year old spa? I have a feeling I'm opening myself up on that one - lol.

I'm still on the fence between a new Costco Evolution and a used spa (as used ones go, this H.S. seems like a pretty decent deal). What I REALLY like about the Evo is that it is not filled with foam so you can get to the fittings, jets and tubing. On the other hand, one would suspect its insulation would be less. How would that equate to $$ per mo running cost. Has anyone figured that out (if there really is any difference)?

PS what skin condition? Me and my family have some skin conditions, the hot tub didn't worsen or better the condition.

HAHA!! Didn't ask and probably don't want to know. What I did find out is that it is claimed to be like new (save for a waterlogged cover) and needs to be craned out of his yard (est $500).

[spatech (the unreal one)]

njmurvin, what type of return policy are you getting off this $3000 or $2700 tub? What sort of dealer support? I too started looking last year at used spas. After three close calls, I gave up.

Good Luck! Spa shopping on a $5000K budget seems intimidating, but is doable.

Obviously, there's no dealer support or return policy on the used spa. But, with the $2k difference in cost to me, there's some wiggle room to fix things. How much can be wrong with a 3 year old spa? I have a feeling I'm opening myself up on that one - lol.

I'm still on the fence between a new Costco Evolution and a used spa (as used ones go, this H.S. seems like a pretty decent deal). What I REALLY like about the Evo is that it is not filled with foam so you can get to the fittings, jets and tubing. On the other hand, one would suspect its insulation would be less. How would that equate to $$ per mo running cost. Has anyone figured that out (if there really is any difference)?

1) On any used spa, condition is everything and you really MUST be able to see it in full operation at full temp so you can push buttons and see that its operating and dry in the equipment area.

2) When looking for a used spa, stick to well known, high quality brands such as the one you are considering. For instance, while I'm not a huge fan of Costco spas I'd buy one of them over a used Master, used Cal and a few other brands; it all depends.

3) As far as your question on insulation/efficiency, everyone has there own thoughts but I'd expect that fully insulated used Hot Spring would use about 1/2 to 2/3 the energy that the Costco brand would use (just my opinion).

[RickJS]

Granted, I've only had my Evolution/Strong/Costco spa for 3 days... but here are a couple of points... the Spa mover also services Spas for several companies... he told me he felt this was a very well built spa, loved the full access.. and Strong is using high quality components used by many other manufactures. Balboa pack, Waterway pumps.... I have also had 2 Hotsprings... they are great, but both had some issues over the years...

And!!! I did have an old spa from Costco that was trash.. started falling apart within a year.. and the pack burnt out last month... took it back, and had a full refund in minutes with a 3 year old spa.. .to me, that has to count some for taking a chance again with Costco.

Not to say others are not "better", but i'm a casual user, and dont need massive jets pounding me... or TV monitors, CD players.. etc.... for the $$ I found the evolution to be right for me...

btw, i'm in the San Francisco area, so not that worried about issues with outdoor temp.. so I did not get into the insulation comparison much at all..

have fun!

Rick

[njmurvin]

Good feedback, guys. All good points. Hard to beat the Costco return policy. However, it would take one Herculean effort to return mine if it turns out to be a dud (as noted above, I have it built into a large gazebo with a surrounding floor). Decisions, decisions . . .