NewB@Spa Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I am fairly new to the Spa ownership experience and I am totally confused. I suppose I should start off by describing my setup; 450 gal 5-6 person tub w/ozonator. I set the tub up in lat Oct using what my dealer provided; EZ Spa OM, Dichlor and other chems (PH Up, Alk increaser, Hardness increaser). For the first month or so I was ok with adding chlorine 1-2x per week and EZ Spa 1x per week. However now I have had my first bout with folliculitus and I don't like it. Took sample to dealer and he said that my FC was 0 - I guess I am misjudging my chlorine demand. I have read some instructions here from Nitro that seem to be on target for getting back on track (or do I need to dump and re-fill?). One of the directions has reference to a link, but I can't find any link. 5. Shock tub to 10 ppm FC using Dichlor the first night after filling. 6. Wait 24 hours and test FC again in order to calculate Chlorine Demand. (See link below) Obviously the tub got pretty heavy use the first month - BTW I luv it! Now it is mostly just me, 2 - 3x per week for 1/2 hour or so. The test strips are really not doing the trick for me - getting confused between TC and FC. Anyone have a suggestion/recommendation for any electronic tester? I am a person that is more comfortable with seeing exact numbers... Nitro - after startup you recommend switching to 6% unscented bleach - is that correct? Need help - Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 I recommend you Decontaminate first (see below). Then follow the Dichlor/Bleach method. Use Dichlor of a week or two to build CYA to 20-30 ppm, then switch to bleach. (see bolw) I'm not familar with electronic testers. I would consider getting a good drop test kit. Taylor K-2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 I recommend you Decontaminate first (see below). Then follow the Dichlor/Bleach method. Use Dichlor of a week or two to build CYA to 20-30 ppm, then switch to bleach. (see bolw) I'm not familar with electronic testers. I would consider getting a good drop test kit. Taylor K-2006 Thank you for your response - is there any way to avoid the decon method right now? Can I shock or superchlorinate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 You could superchlorinate your tub and wait for the FC to drop down to an acceptable level before you go in....I would think that would pretty much kill anything...what do you think Chem Geek? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 How would you recommend I proceed with superchlorinating? Also still confused with the FC and TC? I thought I needed to superchlorinate because my FC is 0. Do you mean TC to drop to an acceptable level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 How would you recommend I proceed with superchlorinating? Also still confused with the FC and TC? I thought I needed to superchlorinate because my FC is 0. Do you mean TC to drop to an acceptable level? well...the first thing you are going to need to know is your CYA level....if you have been using dichlor exclusively for over a month and have not changed the water I suspect your CYA levels will be very high...like 100-150ppm. In essence CYA retards your available chlorine's ability to sanitize your water. In a nut shell, the higher your CYA, the more Free Chlorine you will need to sanitize you water. Secondly the difference between Free Chlorine and Total Chlorine is Combined chlorine. So if you have 1ppm Free Chlorine and 3ppm Total Chlorine, you have 2ppm Combined chlorine. Combined chlorine is chlorine that has already done its job and just hanging around in your water. If your Combined Chlorine is above .5ppm you should shock your tub with either chlorine, or with MPS. Assuming you have the proper CYA of 30ppm, a good hard shock level would be about 20ppm FC, if your CYA is at 150 you would need about 80ppm FC. One thing about "shocking"...for some people there seems to be some magical meaning to this...all you are doing is oxidizing the waste and combined chlorine out of your tub. If you were to superchlorinate your tub, you will be "shocking" it at the same time. There is nothing special about it. One caveat, if you have a high CYA level, you should really drain your tub and start over. That is the only way to reduce your CYA level. If you CYA levels are high.....you are kind of up a creek...you are just going to have to bite the bullet and do a water change. Good reading would be Nitro's approach to water maintenance: http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634 And use the pool calculator: http://www.poolcalculator.com I hope this helps....good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Thanks, not sure what my CYA levels are. Using damned test strips...going to dealer on the way home from work and have them test a sample for CYA. So lets say my CYA is over 30, but under the 100-150 range. What is the amount of whatever chemical;Dichlor, MPS (Never used/don't have). Everything I get from my strips is that my FC is next to nil and TC is high, maybe a high as 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Thanks, not sure what my CYA levels are. Using damned test strips...going to dealer on the way home from work and have them test a sample for CYA. So lets say my CYA is over 30, but under the 100-150 range. What is the amount of whatever chemical;Dichlor, MPS (Never used/don't have). Everything I get from my strips is that my FC is next to nil and TC is high, maybe a high as 10 You really need to get a drop type test kit. The test strips are very, very inconsistent in their readings. For chlorine levels, use the pool calculator and it will give you the recommended FC levels for your spa at a given CYA level. Just enter in all your information and read through the page. Towards the bottom is where it gives you your recommended FC and shock levels. Some find it uncomfortable to soak in a tub with such high chlorine levels as required when your CYA is so high. That is why most will just drain and switch to Nitro's dichlor/bleach method. That method instructs you to use dichlor (which contains 9ppm CYA to every 10ppm chlorine) until your CYA hits 30ppm. Then you switch to an unstabilized chlorine source. Most find that Clorox bleach is the most inexpensive and readily available source of chlorine. I personally run my CYA at 30ppm and keep my free chlorine between 2-5ppm at all times. I use Clorox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Had my water tested - CYA is @60ppm PH was a little low 7.2, I raised it today and gave it a shot of dichlor. Also my dealer has me on a once a week EZ Spa regimen, so I am not certain what that is doing. After I drain I am contemplating Nitro's method Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Had my water tested - CYA is @60ppm PH was a little low 7.2, I raised it today and gave it a shot of dichlor. Also my dealer has me on a once a week EZ Spa regimen, so I am not certain what that is doing. After I drain I am contemplating Nitro's method I think the EZ-Spa has a non-chlorine shock, such as MPS (though they claim they use the world's only sustaining oxidizer), some sort of pH buffer (either boric acid or phosphates with the latter reducing calcium and preventing scaling), and a clarifier (though no polymers, so they say). So it does not have chlorine. Your CYA of 60 ppm is probably from your use of Dichlor since for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 So what is my next step to recovery? My inclination is to drain and start new, but the weather is really turning for the worse (cold) right now and I would rather wait until it warms a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 So what is my next step to recovery? My inclination is to drain and start new, but the weather is really turning for the worse (cold) right now and I would rather wait until it warms a bit. I think you could get by with 60ppm CYA if you had to. If the weather was poor and it was starting to freeze out, I would be inclined to leave my water alone and begin using a unstabilized chlorine. Another option would be to remove 50% of your water and refill. This would leave your CYA at 30ppm. And again, switch to unstabilized chlorine. I would most likely drop the EZ-spa routine, as I do not agree with adding chemicals just because it's Sunday. I think you should add them when your water requires. I would begin using Nitro's method, firstly by superchlorinating it with unstabilized chlorine, and then make sure to maintain my FC levels with the same unstabilized chlorine. I would switch to MPS for shocking when my combined chlorine is above .5ppm. After that I would enjoy my super easy to maintain spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 You all have been a Godsend! When you state "unstabilized" you mean 6% Clorox (unscented) that I can buy at the grocery store right? This morning, in hopes of moving the FC dial I threw ~6 oz of 6% bleach in while spa was in filter cycle (I hope I didn't screw up). I plan to rinse filter tomorrow (although weather is calling for snow in Northeast). I will "test" again this afternoon (damned strips). I am going to get either a Taylor drop kit or Lamotte ColorQ7 (I am leaning towards that) colormeter. I am starting vacation next Wed (8+ days), is there any precautions I should take to make sure my FC (if I ever get it to rise) doesn't plummet again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 You all have been a Godsend! When you state "unstabilized" you mean 6% Clorox (unscented) that I can buy at the grocery store right? This morning, in hopes of moving the FC dial I threw ~6 oz of 6% bleach in while spa was in filter cycle (I hope I didn't screw up). I plan to rinse filter tomorrow (although weather is calling for snow in Northeast). I will "test" again this afternoon (damned strips). I am going to get either a Taylor drop kit or Lamotte ColorQ7 (I am leaning towards that) colormeter. I am starting vacation next Wed (8+ days), is there any precautions I should take to make sure my FC (if I ever get it to rise) doesn't plummet again? YUP....6% clorox is exactly what most everyone uses. adding 6 ounces will get your FC up there in a hurry. I don't know your spas volume, but that would take my 375 gallon spa up to about 8ppm FC. if you are looking to shock it with chlorine at 60ppm CYA you will need to take it to about 18ppm FC, which would be 14ounces of bleach. Again, based on a 375 gallon tub. You will need to adjust for your tub size. Vacation is going to be tricky. I would find a friend who can add a couple of ounces of bleach every day or so just to make sure. If you leave for 8 days, when you get back you are going to have a very infected tub. One note about FC, it can be burnt up very quickly with bad mojo in your tub. I worked on a buddies pool that was looking worse than most lakes, he had about 1/2" of water clarity. We added chlorine up to 40ppm and in 20 minutes it was all gone. long story short, we had to add a total of 190ppm chlorine before we were able to keep a stable FC of 25ppm for any duration. So in a nutshell, if your tub is dirty, you can burn through chlorine rather quickly until everything is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Thanks, tub isn't dirty by any stretch - I can see clearly through to the bottom. I guess that is what is throwing me for a loop. When you guys through out terms like "you will need to take it to about 18ppm FC, which would be 14ounces of bleach. Again, based on a 375 gallon tub." How are you calculating that? BTW my tub is ~425 gal, I keep it ~102/103 degrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Thanks, tub isn't dirty by any stretch - I can see clearly through to the bottom. I guess that is what is throwing me for a loop. When you guys through out terms like "you will need to take it to about 18ppm FC, which would be 14ounces of bleach. Again, based on a 375 gallon tub." How are you calculating that? BTW my tub is ~425 gal, I keep it ~102/103 degrees By dirty, I mean that you have a bacteria problem. You will not really see it..in the pool there was a huge algae bloom that took place to dirty the water on top of his poor sanitation issues. The calculation is done by using the pool calculator located at the following link http://www.poolcalculator.com Use that to get your figures....it works great. If you have an iPhone or iPod, get the app for that. It makes for super easy spa side chemical calculations. FYI...to take a 425 gallon tub from 0ppm FC to 18ppm FC will require 16oz of 6% bleach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 See how to work the calculator - that was easy, but how do I know I want to push it to 18ppm? I guess if I put in 60 CYA it will tell me that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 See how to work the calculator - that was easy, but how do I know I want to push it to 18ppm? I guess if I put in 60 CYA it will tell me that? You got it, put in all your values for CYA and such...look towards the bottom of the calculator and it will give you your recommended FC levels and shock levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2009 Well I dumped in 17 oz clorox yesterday - 1/2 later got a good FC reading. Great! This morning NOT! Looks like it is back to 0! I know it is going to need a refill, but I don't see me attempting that until I get a warmish day in January (snowing right now). Any other recovery tricks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart6453 Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well I dumped in 17 oz clorox yesterday - 1/2 later got a good FC reading. Great! This morning NOT! Looks like it is back to 0! I know it is going to need a refill, but I don't see me attempting that until I get a warmish day in January (snowing right now). Any other recovery tricks? After adding the Clorox....what was your FC reading??? That is an insane amount of chlorine to be burning through...are you or have you in the past used any peroxide products? The reason I ask is that peroxide does neutralize chlorine and vice versa. My only suggestion would be to add 17oz again, and test in 30 minutes, record that FC reading and test in another 30 minutes, then I would add the calculated amount of chlorine to get you back to where you should have been after adding 17oz. I would continue to do this until I saw no measurable change in 30 or so minutes....or until my chlorine demand was at about 25% per day. I might keep my tub at the shock level for a day or so just to make sure its all dead. Another question, are you running an ozonator? If so, that can contribute to overzealous chlorine demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_in_NY Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well I dumped in 17 oz clorox yesterday - 1/2 later got a good FC reading. Great! This morning NOT! Looks like it is back to 0! I know it is going to need a refill, but I don't see me attempting that until I get a warmish day in January (snowing right now). Any other recovery tricks? Another question, are you running an ozonator? If so, that can contribute to overzealous chlorine demand. Hey Bart, I'm a novice when it comes to maintaining water chemistry, but from what I've read on other posts I thought an ozonator has a tendancy to reduce chlorine demand, rather than increase it? If an ozonator does in fact lead to needing more sanitizer (chlorine), then what's the point in having one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrustar Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 If you use the tub a lot, an Ozonator does reduce chemcial use as it eats up bacteria and such. However, if you do not use the tub a lot, the Ozone has noting to eat/destroy, so it turns on the chlorine and consumes that. So, for frequent users, an ozanotor is good. For occasional spa users, an Ozanotor can be so-so (nice to have as a back up, but you will use more chemicals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 I have an ozanator, and since the chem has been screwed up coupled with the fact that we had > 24 inches of snow yesterday the spa has not been used since I put the Clorox in Friday. Tomorrow after work I will get a gallon bottle of Clorox and try your every 30 minute suggestion. Your input is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Well I dumped in 17 oz clorox yesterday - 1/2 later got a good FC reading. Great! This morning NOT! Looks like it is back to 0! I know it is going to need a refill, but I don't see me attempting that until I get a warmish day in January (snowing right now). Any other recovery tricks? After adding the Clorox....what was your FC reading??? That is an insane amount of chlorine to be burning through...are you or have you in the past used any peroxide products? The reason I ask is that peroxide does neutralize chlorine and vice versa. My only suggestion would be to add 17oz again, and test in 30 minutes, record that FC reading and test in another 30 minutes, then I would add the calculated amount of chlorine to get you back to where you should have been after adding 17oz. I would continue to do this until I saw no measurable change in 30 or so minutes....or until my chlorine demand was at about 25% per day. I might keep my tub at the shock level for a day or so just to make sure its all dead. Another question, are you running an ozonator? If so, that can contribute to overzealous chlorine demand. 30 minutes after I put the clorox in I took a reading (again with strips) and in my guesstimation FC was probably between 4 and 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewB@Spa Posted December 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 No peroxide products that I am aware of. My dealer started me on Dichlor and EZ Spa (1x weekly). I guess EZ Spa is an MPS shock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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