Help: Living Organism Coating Every Surface Of My Spa!?

[Superdad]

I have a 2-yr. old Dimension-1 Nautilus (370 gal.) which we have not used much this summer. Last changed the water 15 weeks ago (Aug. 1), and all I ever use is di-clor (ran out of Renew, non-clorine shock last year). My routine (given about a once per week use of the spa) has been to add about 1/3-1/2 oz. of di-clor about once per week. I also rinse the filters about once per month and rotate in an acid-washed/rinsed pair whenever I change the water (usually every 3 mos.).

Anyway, I have been very bad this past month and my log says that I last added diclor 3 weeks ago! (Yet nobody has been in it during that time). So, deciding it was time to change the water, I started draining today. Usually I just need to take a sponge with baking soda to the scum-line, but when I stuck my hand in today I was shocked to find the entire tub surface below the water to be coated with what felt like sandpaper!

So I got in with my scrub-sponge (pink with the finest white Scotchbrite on one side) and found that this bumpy substance had coated EVERYTHING in the tub (floor, seats, chrome jet rings, etc.)! I am convinced that it must be some sort of living organism to be so pervasive. While the tub drained I sat in it with my sponge scrubbing every surface and nook. It took the Scotchbrite side of my sponge and a modest amount of elbow grease to get the "speck creatures" off. Looking at them in the light they are white and tiny; coarse but much finer than sand.

Wish I had a microscope to examine it.

So my questions are:

1) What might it be?

2) What caused it?

3) Is there anything I can add to a temporary batch of water to be sure it is all dead and to help clean out the plumbing (which must surely be coated with it too)?

4) What is a good routine for a spa that is used only about once a week? Is shock essential to my routine (how much and how often)? I like to keep the chemicals simple because a) It is easier to keep track of Whenever I used more of the chemicals in the Leasuretime arsenal (enzyme, Defender, phBalance, etc.) I either got foaming or a nasty smells.

I promise to be more diligent about weekly (or more frequent if you folks tell me) Diclor doses, and I'll get some shock if you think I should. But please tell me what the heck grew in my tub and how to kill it!

Thanks in advance,

ALEX

[Nitro]

Where to start. That almost sounds like scale from Calcium. Was your water balanced properly? If pH/TA is too high, scale can build up in the tub.

Regardless if it scale or not, your tub is NOT safe. You should never let your Free Chrloine drop to zero. Two weeks with no sanitzer is a no no. You probably have all kinds of nasty stuff growing in there now.

My advice is to Decontaminate and start over using the Dichlor/Bleach method. See my links below for more info.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Just using dichlor as your only source of chlorine will cause your cyanuric acid to go way too high. This will cause your chlorine to become ineffective (at "normal" levels) and promote the growth of bacterial biofilms.

However, what you are describing sounds like calcium carbonate scale. Calcium carbonate scale is caused by having a high Calcite Saturation Index (CSI). Use the pool calculator to calculate your CSI.

Scale is hard to remove. The biggest problem that it could cause you is if it coats your heater element and causes the heater to overheat and rupture the element (Assumes electric heater, not gas).

You can try to remove the scale by filling the tub and adding enough acid to dissolve the scale, but that risks damaging the tub and metal components.

Test the white flakes in some vinegar or 10:1 diluted muriatic acid to see if they dissolve. If they dissolve, they are probably calcium carbonate.

If it is scale, you will have to decide if it is worth it to try to descale. I would just clean as much of the scale as possible and then refill and follow Nitro's guide to decontamination.

And then fill with softened water and follow Nitro's approach to water maintenance.

Maintain a low calcium level and a low CSI until all of the scale dissolves.

Note: To make diluted muriatic acid, add acid to the water, never water to acid.

[mcw53]

I also suspect you're dealing with calcium carbonate scale. But I would attempt to descale with your existing water, before dumping. You should probably take your pH down to 6.8 to 7.0 for a few days to attempt to dissolve the scale back into your water. Cleaning the surfaces only will miss the pipes, heater elements, etc. Once the scale has been eliminated or significantly reduced, perform Nitro's decontamination procedure.

Ongoing, I would use Nitro's dichlor-then-bleach method and keep your CSI in the -0.10 to -0.30 range.

What are your current pH, TA and CH levels?

[Superdad]

I also suspect you're dealing with calcium carbonate scale. But I would attempt to descale with your existing water, before dumping. You should probably take your pH down to 6.8 to 7.0 for a few days to attempt to dissolve the scale back into your water. Cleaning the surfaces only will miss the pipes, heater elements, etc. Once the scale has been eliminated or significantly reduced, perform Nitro's decontamination procedure.

Ongoing, I would use Nitro's dichlor-then-bleach method and keep your CSI in the -0.10 to -0.30 range.

What are your current pH, TA and CH levels?

Thanks to all for your quick and knowledgeable replies! Boy, I guess I'd better get with the program--fast!

I will go for the full decon procedure, but I also like mcw53's idea about first trying to drop the pH to dissolve the scale in the pipes back into the water.

I have a couple more questions to get this right.

First, I should tell you all that my pH has always seemed high. I am in a rural location and use delicious water from my own well, so my water starts pretty clean except for modest hardness (about 100 ppm--tested by local water guy who wanted to sell me a softener). All I have right now are LeisureTime test strips, and my pH shows 7.8--8.0 from the tap. But whenever I fill the tub and let it heat up, the next day I am generally measuring 8.2--8.4. Last year I bought a 7 lb. container of pH Down (the granulated kind for swimming pools) and tried dissolving in a bucket of water and then adding to tub. Seemed like I had to add an awful lot that way to even get the spa's pH to budge--so after that I gave up and stopped trying.

Right now the tub is empty (except for water puddles at each seat and some on the floor) and I scrubbed off all the scale. Still, the flakes are there and of course in the plumbing. Since I have to go buy or mail order stuff this week (Spa Flush, Clorox 6%, MPS, and a decent test set), and since I do have the tub of pH Down, I thought I would go ahead and fill the spa back up and add a bunch of pH Down.

a) Is there an easy way to dissolve the granular pH Down, or should I use something else? I do have a 1/2 gal. of muriatic acid (which I use diluted for filter soaking). Would that be useful and safe for temporary (non-bather) pH pull-down?

b ) During the few days of lowered pH to let scale dissolve in pipes, should I let the water heat up?

c) During this time do I need to put ANY chlorine in for oxidizing/sanitization. What should I use? And to what level?

d) Do I let the spa run its regular (20 min. 3x/day) filter cycles during this "lowered pH descale" process?

Remember, this is just a temporary batch of water for before I do the full Nitro Decontamination routine.

After the few days at lower pH, can I then go directly into Nitro's Decon routine, adding the Spa Flush to this batch of water?

I may have a couple of last questions later (I need to read through the full water maintenance routine post), but for now the above Q's about your recommended descaling are what I need answers to so I can get started.

THANKS!!

[quantumchromodynamics]

For descaling, I would suggest that you use about 4 ounces of 31.45 % muriatic acid and let the tub circulate continuously for about 6 to 12 hours. No heat. No chlorine. Drain and refill before doing the decontamination procedure.

I think that it would be safer for your tub and equipment to just fill the tub with softened water (calcium kept at about 50 ppm) and maintain a low CSI to allow the scale to dissolve slowly. Keep the pH in the 7.3 to 7.5 range.

I don't think that the scale is going to have too much adverse effect other than the risk to the heating element, which you can check and clean anyway. You can clean the filters, and that only leaves the pipes. Minor scale in the pipes is not going to hurt anything. I think that the descaling procedure is more risky to your tub.

Note: Lowering your pH and alkalinity low enough to quickly remove scale might damage your tub or equipment.

[Superdad]

For descaling, I would suggest that you use about 4 ounces of 31.45 % muriatic acid and let the tub circulate continuously for about 6 to 12 hours. No heat. No chlorine. Drain and refill before doing the decontamination procedure.

I think that it would be safer for your tub and equipment to just fill the tub with softened water (calcium kept at about 50 ppm) and maintain a low CSI to allow the scale to dissolve slowly. Keep the pH in the 7.3 to 7.5 range.

I don't think that the scale is going to have too much adverse effect other than the risk to the heating element, which you can check and clean anyway. You can clean the filters, and that only leaves the pipes. Minor scale in the pipes is not going to hurt anything. I think that the descaling procedure is more risky to your tub.

Note: Lowering your pH and alkalinity low enough to quickly remove scale might damage your tub or equipment.

Thanks again for the detailed reply. So for descaling you suggest the muriatic acid. When you say to let the tub circulate continuously for 6-12 hours, do you just mean via the normal 24/7 circ pump, or are you suggesting I keep turning on the jet pumps (the electronic controller on my D-1 limits duty cycle of the big jet pumps)?

But then it appears you go on to recommend that I NOT do the muriatic acid descale (even though 4 ozs. in 370 gal. of water does not seem too risky). Is that correct? Should I just skip that and move on to the decontamination?

The bigger question I have concerns your recommendation to fill the tub with "softened" water. How? I get what I get from my well water, and I do not have a water softener machine at my house. So whatever I do, I have to do to fresh water that I put in the tub. I am familiar with chems for raising or lowering pH, and for raising CH, but what does one put in to lower CH (e.g. "soften"), or is that just the same thing as lowering pH? Please forgive my ignorance.

Also I still would like to know if there is a pH lowering product out there which is easier to use than the granular stuff I have and which is difficult to get to dissolve. Any liquid types? (Some generics that I could buy a gallon of since I know that getting my pH to stay low is a regular task for the long term?)

I am anxious to go buy or order some chems online today so I can get cracking on this (want the spa to be back up before family arrives for Thanksgiving). THANKS AGAIN!

[Nitro]

Thanks again for the detailed reply. So for descaling you suggest the muriatic acid. When you say to let the tub circulate continuously for 6-12 hours, do you just mean via the normal 24/7 circ pump, or are you suggesting I keep turning on the jet pumps (the electronic controller on my D-1 limits duty cycle of the big jet pumps)?

But then it appears you go on to recommend that I NOT do the muriatic acid descale (even though 4 ozs. in 370 gal. of water does not seem too risky). Is that correct? Should I just skip that and move on to the decontamination?

The bigger question I have concerns your recommendation to fill the tub with "softened" water. How? I get what I get from my well water, and I do not have a water softener machine at my house. So whatever I do, I have to do to fresh water that I put in the tub. I am familiar with chems for raising or lowering pH, and for raising CH, but what does one put in to lower CH (e.g. "soften"), or is that just the same thing as lowering pH? Please forgive my ignorance.

Also I still would like to know if there is a pH lowering product out there which is easier to use than the granular stuff I have and which is difficult to get to dissolve. Any liquid types? (Some generics that I could buy a gallon of since I know that getting my pH to stay low is a regular task for the long term?)

I am anxious to go buy or order some chems online today so I can get cracking on this (want the spa to be back up before family arrives for Thanksgiving). THANKS AGAIN!

I agree with Quant about letting the Calcium desolve slowly over time, by keeping pH low 7.2-7.4 and TA low around 30-40ppm. But opinions may vary on this.

The only way you're going to get soft water (Calcium removed) is to get a water sofener. Something you may consider anyway if you have really bad water. The other option is to truck it in.

However, I would not do anything until you get a Drop Test kit (Taylor K-2006). If you cannot measure your water properly, you may end up adding more scale to the tub. You need to Balance the water immediately after filling. You can use either Dry Acid (granular) or Muratic (liquid) to lower TA/pH. Read me "Lowering TA" link below.

Do a decontamination after balancing your water. See below. Drain and refill (perferably with softened water). Follow the Dichor/Bleach method. See link below. However, keep your TA around 30-40 ppm, and pH 7.2-7.4. The Calcium should desolve over time. I would suggest leaving some of the scale on the tub surface you can check to see if/when it works.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I am trying to give you what I think your options are and the risks involved. This is one of the reasons that it is so important to maintain good chemical balance from the beginning.

One option is to try to descale by lowering the pH using muriatic acid. I wanted to make sure that you knew the risks involved so that you could make an informed choice.

The other option is to clean and decontaminate everything as well as you can and then refill and let the scale dissolve over time. It is my opinion that this would be the preferred option. If the scale doesn't dissolve in a reasonable time, you can always try the more aggressive descaling procedure.

You are going to have to decide which way you think is best.

Softened water would help the scale dissolve. If that's not a realistic possibility, then we will just have to work around it. Just keep your CSI low until the scale dissolves.

You should be able to clean most of the scale from the surface, filters and heater element. That only leaves scale in the pipes. My primary concern about scale in the pipes is that it could possibly give bacteria a place to adhere to.

You can use muriatic acid for routine lowering of your pH as needed.

[Superdad]

Thank you both again. Things are starting to make a bit more sense (especially since I have now studied Nitro's long Water Maint. guide and am digesting the counterintuitive interplay between TA/pH/CH).

As far as filling the tub with soft water for the purpose of helping the scale to dissolve: Not going to happen. I live in a rural area and the water from local tankers is any but soft--and it is loaded with metals! (Years ago our 3,500 gal storage tank ran out due to a well pump problem and I had an emergency delivery to fill the tank before a holiday weekend; we hated every ounce of that water!) And I do not feel the need for a house softener, especially with our old pipes.

Besides the above, our well water hardness would seem to be pretty ideal (or low if anything) for a spa. From our tap it is 100-115 ppm grain hardness. I guess I am confused by Nitro's recommendation to fill with soft water even after the decon (i.e. the water we will bath in).

Also, my TA and pH from the tap seems about right (with an small Aquachem drop kit I found I still had, and with some Leisuretime test strips). Today I show TA at 90 and pH at 7.6 (from a glass of water, not a running heated tub).

So I am hoping that once I fully decontaminate the spa I can resume a simple Diclor and MPS routine without too much trouble. I have some calcium booster which I now understand may help me in balancing TA/pH, and I am glad to know that Muriatic acid (in small amounts) is a safe liquid form to pull down pH.

By the way, with the final fresh water in the tub, should I balance first before adding any Diclor? In my case, for the final water after decon I intend to shock to 10 ppm and check overnight just to gauge demand and to verify that the decon killed everything. So knowing when to spend time balancing is important to me (I did not note any order in the Guide).

The calcium carbonate that formed everywhere came off the surface pretty easily, and over time should dissolve out of the pipes.

I want to nail down a workable procedure based on all your advice before I start (and to avoid multiple drain/fill cycles). Knowing my source water readings, and that my tub is empty now (2 days) but still contaminated (but surface deposits scrubbed off), please comment/approve the following combo plan:

(Filters are already out and soaking in 20:1 water/muriatic acid bath; I have fresh filters to use afterwards too)

1) Fill tub with fresh water.

2) Rinse and install filters that I had soaking.

3) Pour in Swirl Away or Spa Flush and run the jets for 30 min.

4) Let sit overnight with just the circ pump running.

5) Drain and clean off the scum line with some leftover enzyme; maybe buff the whole spa dry and use some Spa Gloss.

6) Remove and pressure rinse fliters; maybe dunk again in my bucket of 20:1 water/muriatic acid bath and then rinse.

7) Fill tub extra high with fresh water.

8) Run the jets and add enough muriatic acid to lower the TA/pH to around 40ppm TA / 7.0 pH (Since this is again temp water for decon, I thought I'd combine your suggestions and run some low pH to help dissolve calcium from pipes/heater; is this okay here?)

9) Dump in about 34 oz. of 6% bleach; Run the jets for an hour.

10) Drain and rinse tub; Replace the filters with my clean/dry set.

11) Fill the spa with fresh water.

12) Shock with Diclor to 10 ppm FC and run jets.

13) Cover and check the next morning.

14) Balance the water (if needed) to 80 TA, pH 7.4, CH above 100.

15) Keep the FC at about 5 ppm and try to enjoy the @#$@# tub!

Please comment and correct. I'll be using about 1200 gallons of water to the above 3 fills, so I want to get it right!

Lastly, while I read your Diclor/Bleach system routine, my life (w/3 kids, work, etc.) is just too busy to be able to commit to such a rigorous system (especially trying to keep track of total PPM of diclor added over the weeks before starting to add bleach). We don't use the tub that much each week (probably 5-8 bather entries total for a week) and I'd like to find a reasonable Diclor/MPS groove that I can remember. How about if I do that for two months and then use bleach during the final month before changing the water (which I most always do between 3-4 months)?

I'm sure you are getting tired of me and my many questions by now so I'll sign off before I get redundant. Thanks many times more!

ALEX

[Nitro]

The reason I recommend using a softener is not just to have low calcium, but it also removes metals and other sediment.

Regarding the decon. I would just say put the decontaminated filter in the tub while you supershock with bleach. Better yet just buy a new filter. Soaking in acid is not a good idea if there are oils in it.

Regarding the Dichlor/Bleach method. To be honest with you it's not any more difficult than using only Dichlor. The CYA doesn't have to be exact (20-50 is fine). Just use Dichlor for a week, and switch to Bleach. HOWEVER, it is MUCH safer, and your water will last TWICE as long. Using Dichlor alone is not recommend. Here is a link explaining in more detail.

Bottom line is: if you're not willing to use the Dichlor/Bleach method, I recommend you forget about Chlorine, and go with Bromine (3 step method). There is a learning curve with it also, but it's a little more forgiving if you neglect it. However, if you go back to what you were doing, you will problaby wind up with issues again. Just my humble opinion. Good luck!

[PaulR]

By the way, with the final fresh water in the tub, should I balance first before adding any Diclor? In my case, for the final water after decon I intend to shock to 10 ppm and check overnight just to gauge demand and to verify that the decon killed everything. So knowing when to spend time balancing is important to me (I did not note any order in the Guide).

Normally you'd check pH first, then raise TA and/or CH if they are low, then start the chlorine. But your numbers out of the tap all look good, I'd just double check after the fill to make sure they are still in line.

Lastly, while I read your Diclor/Bleach system routine, my life (w/3 kids, work, etc.) is just too busy to be able to commit to such a rigorous system (especially trying to keep track of total PPM of diclor added over the weeks before starting to add bleach). We don't use the tub that much each week (probably 5-8 bather entries total for a week) and I'd like to find a reasonable Diclor/MPS groove that I can remember. How about if I do that for two months and then use bleach during the final month before changing the water (which I most always do between 3-4 months)?

Okay, so you have a 370 gallon tub, and you're shooting for 20ppm CYA, which means you want about 25ppm FC from dichlor (cumulative). According to the Pool Calculator this will take a smidge more than 2 oz dichlor (over time!). So, you measure out a rounded quarter cup of dichlor into some handy container, use that as your chlorine source (by the spoonful, as needed) until it runs out, then switch to bleach. How hard is that? (My guess is it will take only 2-3 weeks.)

--paulr

[quantumchromodynamics]

I have some calcium booster which I now understand may help me in balancing TA/pH

I haven't had time to read and evaluate your whole plan. However, I wanted to note that you should not plan to add any calcium booster until all scale is gone, and then only if it is needed, which it probably won't be.

Calcium booster will not help in balancing TA or pH.

[Nitro]

I have some calcium booster which I now understand may help me in balancing TA/pH

I haven't had time to read and evaluate your whole plan. However, I wanted to note that you should not plan to add any calcium booster until all scale is gone, and then only if it is needed, which it probably won't be.

Calcium booster will not help in balancing TA or pH.

Yeah, I missed that. No need to add Calcium, even after the scale is gone. The fill water is 100 ppm CH.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

How about using a pre filter rather than softened water. These remove much of the "junk" that is in your well water and much less exspensive than trucking in. If you have an issue with PH being high on dichlor, you need to be real careful with the bleach method. It is going to take work from your side, you cant skip days without checking your balance unless you want to damage the tub more. Swirl away will also halp remove some of the scale from the lines and heater.

[Superdad]

Thanks very much to all. My chems arrive via UPS on Friday (Spa System Flush, new test kit, etc.) and I'll spend the weekend doing the big cleaning decontamination routine. I wish I had thought about the pre-filter sooner. I think I have seen some that just go in-line with the hose. Can anyone point me to a particularly effective one that does not cost too much? My well water is pretty good (we never see rust stains in the toilets and the washing machine hose screens don't collect granules), but perhaps there are some metals in suspension. Given that we don't have very hard water (100 ppm) and that spas are supposed to have at least 100 ppm CH, I feel okay there.

I'll keep an eye on CYA levels before I do anything with bleach. I know my son would not like smelling bleach when he opens the spa in the evening (and its location makes it unlikely that we will open it for 5-10 min. just before each use).

All the best,

AJC

[chem geek]

Dichlor and bleach (and Trichlor and lithium hypochlorite and Cal-Hypo) produce identical chlorine in the water so any smell is going to be the same with both, but it will smell more until you build up some CYA in the water. So the smell will be the strongest in the first days after a fresh fill and will be less after your week of Dichlor. After that when using bleach, it should smell fairly consistent. If you start your soak with a relatively low chlorine level, say an FC of 1 ppm, then you probably won't notice anything during your soak.