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Superdad

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  1. Thank you all again. Have now switched over to bleach, and I'll do a bit of MPS this coming week. Will order some boric acid and see how it all turns out. Cheers, ALEX
  2. I have had much more luck lowering my TA with muriatic acid. And my source water starts off at TA 300 ppm! In my 370 gal spa it takes 13 oz. of muriatic acid to get to 80 ppm. But don't do it all at once. Start with half, then half the rest, then again--over 8 hours. Thus I added first 8 oz, then 3 ozs, then 2 oz.
  3. I put in 30ppm borates and pH is much more stable. I need acid maybe once a month. --paulr Is that just borates from "20 Mule Team" laundry additive? Or is 20 Mule Team boric acid? (Which of course would not be what I want). If 20 Mule Team is not correct or ideal, then a link to an on-line source of borates at reasonable price would be appreciated. Thanks!
  4. Richard and Mike: Thank you both very much. Your last couple of replies have really brought things into focus for me! (I've also been following with interest the concurrent thread about Nature2 & MPS.) Right now (with my fresh and balanced water) I am just trying to keep my FC level up to 2 ppm as tested each morning. I've been adding 3/4 oz. of Dichlor each evening after a couple of kids bathing. I have a feeling that I am not being aggressive enough just yet with the Dichlor. Mike, your chart is VERy helpful (I printed it out). You mentioned that you have a spreadsheeet (with some formulas I assume) into which you log in chems, bather usage, measurements, etc. Any chance you could post the Excel sheet (either blank your numbers or leave in for example) so that I and others can use it? I do not know if the forum s/w permits posting of files (as opposed to just images), so I could always give you my private e-mail. Enjoy your turkey everyone--and your hot tubs! ALEX
  5. MANY THANKS to all three of you who replied in such detail above! First off, I want to be VERY clear with quantumchromodynamics about something: I truly meant no offense to you in stating that chemistry lessons are not what I am looking for. The fact is, having read (and worked my brain hard to follow the chem logic--which I have not had to do since high school 30+ years ago) so many of your posts over the last month, I already trust you far more than any pool store dweeb. Sorry, I know that's not saying much. Let me rephrase: I view you as not just a knowledgeable authority on the subject, but also as the resident sanity check against the many subjective claims and viewpoints that float around and often obscure the truth. You are a treasured asset to this forum! So like I said, I already trust you. And while I am of a moderately technical bend by nature (i.e. I enjoy learning and understanding as opposed to just accepting "received wisdom"), I do admit that at this point I am mostly looking for a straightforward recommendation on a routine recipe that will keep my water both balanced and sanitized. And if I have not been clear, this forum is currently my ONLY resource for good advice on spa maintenance (once I settle on what I need, then I just go elsewhere online to order it). Thanks also to both Mike & Mikey above. Your guidelines and experiences are helpful. I'll try to extrapolate it all into a plan that works for me. It is interesting to know that MPS will depress TA/pH levels over time. That could work to my advantage as so far I have had to fight upward drift of those levels. Since MPS affects true FC and TC readings (unless I get the Taylor kit to compensate for that), I guess I ought to get some of the Nature2 MPS test strips if I plan to use MPS. I suppose my last confusion or frustration is that use of MPS seems like a subjective thing. That is, there does not seem to be a consensus on what levels to maintain MPS at while also maintaining chlorine levels. Not that you all have not offered various recommendations and examples of MPS usage. It is just that I was just starting to get comfortable with the objective, measurable regime of keeping FC at a constant 1-2 ppm (w/ozonator & Vison silver cart.), and switching over to bleach once I measure CYA (with the Taylor no registering CYA until 35 ppm, I can just use 35 as the point at which I switch over). Seems simple enough. Knowing when to add or alternate in MPS seems more complicated and subjective. So I'll end with one question: Is there anything wrong with never using any MPS in a Dichlor/bleach program? Happy Thanksgiving all!
  6. Gents: Just started over again with my 370 gal. D-1 Nautilus (has ozonator and fresh Vision silver cartridge) after sanitization/water balance neglect. Spa Flushed, decontaminated, scrubbed, and with this 3rd fresh fill I have nicely balanced my water at last. At 103F: CH approx. 240 TA 80 (took 13 oz. of muriatic to get here) pH 7.6 FC 3.0 I'm keeping track of Dichlor additions to add up CYA, and then I'll switch to bleach. My Taylor kit comes next week so I'll even be able to measure CYA and get a more accurate read on CH (right now I just estimate it at 2/3rds of Total Hardness with hard to read strips). The questions are: Should I introduce MPS into my program? If yes, then when? Just as shock once at regular intervals (once a week? every other week?), or should I do as many spa makers (D-1 included) and dealers say and use a little MPS after each use of the tub? And if so, then how to decide how much to use? I know MPS is an oxidizer and that chlorine is still needed for killing of bacteria. But if using MPS, then what residual chlorine levels should I maintain? It is easy to measure FC, but I don't think the Taylor K-2006 kit measures MPS levels (heard there are strips for that, but I hate reading strips). Besides, what MPS readings would one even shoot for? Does MPS help reduce chlorine demand/burn off? Does MPS affect (change or help stabilize) TA or pH? Lastly, given that I using the Vision silver cartridge (similar to a Nature2?), is it true that I could/should idle FC levels as low as 1 ppm? I almost hate to because I am so afraid of having them drop to zero overnight sometime. So many questions. I am sure we can have a lively long thread on many of the above (I'll enjoy it), but I would ask also for some focused and understandable answers. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for the real technical folks here (and especially for their patience and generosity with knowledge), but another in-depth chemistry lesson from quantumchromodynamics might send me overboard! Thanks, AJC
  7. quantumchromodynamics: Thanks again. Guess I just have to look closer next time before I complain about the PoolCalculator; that thing does everything! Your (over my head) explanation of Leisure Time "pH Balance" was interesting. And its effect with hard water jives with my one experience with it over a year ago. Actually, Leisure Time makes a product called "pH Balance Plus" which is specifically for use with hard water. Unfortunately, Leisure Time does not seem to post MSD sheets for its products (and even Robert's where you posted the link to the other MSDS does not have one for the "Plus" version for hard water). I wonder what is in that stuff. No matter really, since I won't be using the bottle of "pH Balance" I have, I can order whatever. Please remind me again of what you think is the best, easiest to use, and most cost effective product for "anchoring" TA/pH once I get the water balanced. (I'll be using Dichlor/Bleach in a tub with an ozonator.) If you recommend borax for TA/pH stabilizing/buffering, then I will be puzzled once again because I see (on the calculator) that borates raise TA & pH quite a bit. Maybe I am missing something or perhaps the borax is for something else. All the best, AJC
  8. Thanks Mike. Guess I missed the section on dry acid qty. on the calculator. Still, I wish it would calc for desired TA movement, as opposed to just pH goal. My source water's pH starts out at about 8.0, but it is TA needs to move a ton. The calculator says just under 3 oz. of acid to go from 8.0 to 7.2 pH, but as stated, I needed about a pint of acid to do the job with TA. I will get some borates to help stabilize. In the meantime I do have a bottle of Leaisuretime "pH Balance" that is supposed to help anchor the pH once I hit it. I assume that it has some borates in it. One important question I have is this: Since I now know how much total muriatic acid it takes to get a full fresh tub of my source water to my target TA, do I still need to do it in stages--or can I go ahead and do it in one shot? (Maybe I'll use just a little under, say 12 oz.; check and then do the final movement.) What does do you experts think? Thanks again. ALEX
  9. Folks: My 370 gal spa takes a LOT of acid to get from TA 300 down to TA 80. Took 14 oz. today (a combo of some Robard's liquid sodium bisulfate, and 6 oz. of muriatic acid). Both types do the same thing, but the muriatic is much cheaper. (I know that dry sodium bisulfate is cheap too, but I hate having to stand there trying to get it to dissolve in a bucket; it never fully does and then I still have to add it to the spa). So my question is: Aside from hazardous handling issues of muriatic acid, is there any advantage to using sodium bisulfate (dry or liquid)? Given that it takes a lot for my balancing, is there any danger to my spa shell/plumbling (or my skin when using spa) to using just muriatic acid? Does it affect TA/pH or any other parameters in a different way than sodium bisulfate? Also, is dosing any different between the two? Poolcalculator.com only shows dosing for muriatic acid. (BTW, I do wish the PoolCalc would add calculation for how much acid it takes to move TA, based on CH, temp, etc.). Thanks, AJC
  10. Thanks everyone! Yeah, I got the chems this afternoon and the Spa Flush bottle says to run it without any filters in the tub. Hopefully my D-1 electronic brain will allow that. I have a clean and dry set of filters from before the contamination. That's what I'll use when I put the final water in. But I may put the old (but muriatic acid bathed and rinsed) set in during the mega-chlorination 2nd-fill for the decon step. And maybe I'll run the stored dry set in that high chlorine water (with the jets on high) for a while too. I don't think it could hurt and would be a good way to insure that the filters (which I have always taken good care of with soaks and rinses) don't have any living nasties. With filters at $70/set, and having just dropped a bunch on test kit and new chems, etc., I'm going to hold off on new filters for a little while. After I have some practice at the Dichlor/Bleach system, then I'll order new filters--and new neck pillows! Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone. I'll post again after the weekend once I see how my newly educated attempt at water balancing goes. ALEX
  11. This weekend, on my empty but contaminated tub (see Help: Living organism coating spa?) I am going to do a system flush (Swirl Away or Spa Flush), drain, then decontamination and drain, and then on third fill super-clorinate swim water for verification. My question is (On my D-1 Nautilus with 2 each 75 sq./ft. filters), do I keep any filters in the spa during the first step with the Spa Flush? If yes, then I guess I'll need to clean those (I usually soak my filters in diluted muriatic acid and pressure rinse) really well afterwards. But my instinct tells me that I do want any filters in during flush. (I am trying rid my tub of some unknown combination of biofilm and a lot of granulated calcium carbonate scale.) Please advise ASAP as I want to start the process Saturday morning (assuming UPS delivers my chems this afternoon). Thanks, ALEX
  12. Thanks very much to all. My chems arrive via UPS on Friday (Spa System Flush, new test kit, etc.) and I'll spend the weekend doing the big cleaning decontamination routine. I wish I had thought about the pre-filter sooner. I think I have seen some that just go in-line with the hose. Can anyone point me to a particularly effective one that does not cost too much? My well water is pretty good (we never see rust stains in the toilets and the washing machine hose screens don't collect granules), but perhaps there are some metals in suspension. Given that we don't have very hard water (100 ppm) and that spas are supposed to have at least 100 ppm CH, I feel okay there. I'll keep an eye on CYA levels before I do anything with bleach. I know my son would not like smelling bleach when he opens the spa in the evening (and its location makes it unlikely that we will open it for 5-10 min. just before each use). All the best, AJC
  13. Thank you both again. Things are starting to make a bit more sense (especially since I have now studied Nitro's long Water Maint. guide and am digesting the counterintuitive interplay between TA/pH/CH). As far as filling the tub with soft water for the purpose of helping the scale to dissolve: Not going to happen. I live in a rural area and the water from local tankers is any but soft--and it is loaded with metals! (Years ago our 3,500 gal storage tank ran out due to a well pump problem and I had an emergency delivery to fill the tank before a holiday weekend; we hated every ounce of that water!) And I do not feel the need for a house softener, especially with our old pipes. Besides the above, our well water hardness would seem to be pretty ideal (or low if anything) for a spa. From our tap it is 100-115 ppm grain hardness. I guess I am confused by Nitro's recommendation to fill with soft water even after the decon (i.e. the water we will bath in). Also, my TA and pH from the tap seems about right (with an small Aquachem drop kit I found I still had, and with some Leisuretime test strips). Today I show TA at 90 and pH at 7.6 (from a glass of water, not a running heated tub). So I am hoping that once I fully decontaminate the spa I can resume a simple Diclor and MPS routine without too much trouble. I have some calcium booster which I now understand may help me in balancing TA/pH, and I am glad to know that Muriatic acid (in small amounts) is a safe liquid form to pull down pH. By the way, with the final fresh water in the tub, should I balance first before adding any Diclor? In my case, for the final water after decon I intend to shock to 10 ppm and check overnight just to gauge demand and to verify that the decon killed everything. So knowing when to spend time balancing is important to me (I did not note any order in the Guide). The calcium carbonate that formed everywhere came off the surface pretty easily, and over time should dissolve out of the pipes. I want to nail down a workable procedure based on all your advice before I start (and to avoid multiple drain/fill cycles). Knowing my source water readings, and that my tub is empty now (2 days) but still contaminated (but surface deposits scrubbed off), please comment/approve the following combo plan: (Filters are already out and soaking in 20:1 water/muriatic acid bath; I have fresh filters to use afterwards too) 1) Fill tub with fresh water. 2) Rinse and install filters that I had soaking. 3) Pour in Swirl Away or Spa Flush and run the jets for 30 min. 4) Let sit overnight with just the circ pump running. 5) Drain and clean off the scum line with some leftover enzyme; maybe buff the whole spa dry and use some Spa Gloss. 6) Remove and pressure rinse fliters; maybe dunk again in my bucket of 20:1 water/muriatic acid bath and then rinse. 7) Fill tub extra high with fresh water. 8) Run the jets and add enough muriatic acid to lower the TA/pH to around 40ppm TA / 7.0 pH (Since this is again temp water for decon, I thought I'd combine your suggestions and run some low pH to help dissolve calcium from pipes/heater; is this okay here?) 9) Dump in about 34 oz. of 6% bleach; Run the jets for an hour. 10) Drain and rinse tub; Replace the filters with my clean/dry set. 11) Fill the spa with fresh water. 12) Shock with Diclor to 10 ppm FC and run jets. 13) Cover and check the next morning. 14) Balance the water (if needed) to 80 TA, pH 7.4, CH above 100. 15) Keep the FC at about 5 ppm and try to enjoy the @#$@# tub! Please comment and correct. I'll be using about 1200 gallons of water to the above 3 fills, so I want to get it right! Lastly, while I read your Diclor/Bleach system routine, my life (w/3 kids, work, etc.) is just too busy to be able to commit to such a rigorous system (especially trying to keep track of total PPM of diclor added over the weeks before starting to add bleach). We don't use the tub that much each week (probably 5-8 bather entries total for a week) and I'd like to find a reasonable Diclor/MPS groove that I can remember. How about if I do that for two months and then use bleach during the final month before changing the water (which I most always do between 3-4 months)? I'm sure you are getting tired of me and my many questions by now so I'll sign off before I get redundant. Thanks many times more! ALEX
  14. Thanks again for the detailed reply. So for descaling you suggest the muriatic acid. When you say to let the tub circulate continuously for 6-12 hours, do you just mean via the normal 24/7 circ pump, or are you suggesting I keep turning on the jet pumps (the electronic controller on my D-1 limits duty cycle of the big jet pumps)? But then it appears you go on to recommend that I NOT do the muriatic acid descale (even though 4 ozs. in 370 gal. of water does not seem too risky). Is that correct? Should I just skip that and move on to the decontamination? The bigger question I have concerns your recommendation to fill the tub with "softened" water. How? I get what I get from my well water, and I do not have a water softener machine at my house. So whatever I do, I have to do to fresh water that I put in the tub. I am familiar with chems for raising or lowering pH, and for raising CH, but what does one put in to lower CH (e.g. "soften"), or is that just the same thing as lowering pH? Please forgive my ignorance. Also I still would like to know if there is a pH lowering product out there which is easier to use than the granular stuff I have and which is difficult to get to dissolve. Any liquid types? (Some generics that I could buy a gallon of since I know that getting my pH to stay low is a regular task for the long term?) I am anxious to go buy or order some chems online today so I can get cracking on this (want the spa to be back up before family arrives for Thanksgiving). THANKS AGAIN!
  15. Thanks to all for your quick and knowledgeable replies! Boy, I guess I'd better get with the program--fast! I will go for the full decon procedure, but I also like mcw53's idea about first trying to drop the pH to dissolve the scale in the pipes back into the water. I have a couple more questions to get this right. First, I should tell you all that my pH has always seemed high. I am in a rural location and use delicious water from my own well, so my water starts pretty clean except for modest hardness (about 100 ppm--tested by local water guy who wanted to sell me a softener). All I have right now are LeisureTime test strips, and my pH shows 7.8--8.0 from the tap. But whenever I fill the tub and let it heat up, the next day I am generally measuring 8.2--8.4. Last year I bought a 7 lb. container of pH Down (the granulated kind for swimming pools) and tried dissolving in a bucket of water and then adding to tub. Seemed like I had to add an awful lot that way to even get the spa's pH to budge--so after that I gave up and stopped trying. Right now the tub is empty (except for water puddles at each seat and some on the floor) and I scrubbed off all the scale. Still, the flakes are there and of course in the plumbing. Since I have to go buy or mail order stuff this week (Spa Flush, Clorox 6%, MPS, and a decent test set), and since I do have the tub of pH Down, I thought I would go ahead and fill the spa back up and add a bunch of pH Down. a) Is there an easy way to dissolve the granular pH Down, or should I use something else? I do have a 1/2 gal. of muriatic acid (which I use diluted for filter soaking). Would that be useful and safe for temporary (non-bather) pH pull-down? b ) During the few days of lowered pH to let scale dissolve in pipes, should I let the water heat up? c) During this time do I need to put ANY chlorine in for oxidizing/sanitization. What should I use? And to what level? d) Do I let the spa run its regular (20 min. 3x/day) filter cycles during this "lowered pH descale" process? Remember, this is just a temporary batch of water for before I do the full Nitro Decontamination routine. After the few days at lower pH, can I then go directly into Nitro's Decon routine, adding the Spa Flush to this batch of water? I may have a couple of last questions later (I need to read through the full water maintenance routine post), but for now the above Q's about your recommended descaling are what I need answers to so I can get started. THANKS!!
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