Richs100 Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Just took delivery on a new HS Envoy (2nd tub). I used to use a bromine floater, but now they tell me to use chlorine/MPS with HS Freshwater AG+ cartridge. (the cartridge is discretely stamped as Nature2 and I assume its the same as Nature2). The tub also has an ozonator. I have some iron and copper in my well water. The tech at my dealer stated to NEVER use MetalGon or Stain and Scale with Nature2 as he says it will coat the silver nodules in the cartridge and prevent it from working. However, my salesman says I should use MetalGon on startup and keep the Nature2 cartridge out of the spa for a few days until the MetalGon has sequestered the metals and filtered them out. He also says routine use of Stain&Scale will not hurt the Nature2. I am so confused! Oh how I wish for my old bromine floater, but I like having a warranty again! Will MetalGon and/or Stain&Scale hurt a Nature2 cartridge? I checked the Nature2 website, but it really doesn't talk about this issue. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Your salesman is correct. Just took delivery on a new HS Envoy (2nd tub). I used to use a bromine floater, but now they tell me to use chlorine/MPS with HS Freshwater AG+ cartridge. (the cartridge is discretely stamped as Nature2 and I assume its the same as Nature2). The tub also has an ozonator. I have some iron and copper in my well water. The tech at my dealer stated to NEVER use MetalGon or Stain and Scale with Nature2 as he says it will coat the silver nodules in the cartridge and prevent it from working. However, my salesman says I should use MetalGon on startup and keep the Nature2 cartridge out of the spa for a few days until the MetalGon has sequestered the metals and filtered them out. He also says routine use of Stain&Scale will not hurt the Nature2. I am so confused! Oh how I wish for my old bromine floater, but I like having a warranty again! Will MetalGon and/or Stain&Scale hurt a Nature2 cartridge? I checked the Nature2 website, but it really doesn't talk about this issue. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richs100 Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Your salesman is correct. Thanks, Dr. Spa. Your answer is quick, short and to the point! Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between a product like MetalGon and Stain&Scale. I have been told MetalGon causes the metals to clump together so they can be filtered out. Stain&Scale works more like a coating on the spa and equipment to prevent the metals (and calcium) from doing their destructive work. Is this basically correct? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Metal Gon removes metals from the water, stain and scale prevents calcium and other dissolved minerals from depositing on the spa. Metals are different than minerals. Thanks, Dr. Spa. Your answer is quick, short and to the point! Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between a product like MetalGon and Stain&Scale. I have been told MetalGon causes the metals to clump together so they can be filtered out. Stain&Scale works more like a coating on the spa and equipment to prevent the metals (and calcium) from doing their destructive work. Is this basically correct? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richs100 Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Metal Gon removes metals from the water, stain and scale prevents calcium and other dissolved minerals from depositing on the spa. Metals are different than minerals. I understand. Thanks, Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted November 27, 2006 Report Share Posted November 27, 2006 Metal Gon removes metals from the water, stain and scale prevents calcium and other dissolved minerals from depositing on the spa. Metals are different than minerals. Last time I checked calcium (and magnesium, the other 'mineral' that makes our water 'hard") were metals. Also the 'minerals' put into water by Nature 2, spafrog, and ionzers are copper and silver (or silver and zinc for the frog). Last time I checked they were metals also.In the pool and spa industry metals and minerals are one and the same! Metal Gon (Advantis) is HEDP, a phosphonic acid derived seqesterant with a high chelation index for copper and iron. Stain and Scale (BioLab) is a different phosphonate (2-phosphono-1,2,4-butanetricarboxylic acid) with a high chelation index for calcium. However, all of the phosphonic acid derivatives (and the EDTA based products such as NaturalChemistry's MetalFree) all work in the same way. None of them remove metals from the water nor allow them to be filtered out, they react with the active sites on the metal ions and 'deactivate' them so they don't deposit as stain or scale nor oxidize and color the water. In effect the seqesterant makes them non reactive. If you are putting metals (copper and silver) in your water with a N2 or ionizer to act as a sanitizer it is NOT a good idea to use a seqesterant or chelator. This will deactivate them and destroy what little sanitizing power they actually have! These products work by putting metal ions in the water (call them minerals if you must). If you seqester them they have no activity and won't sanitize. It is the metals these product put into the water that have the slight and very slow sanitizing effect! HEDP is the most commen seqesterant used in the pool and spa industry, btw. It is found in the majority of 'metal remover' products such as Metal Gon, Jack's Magic, Metal Magic, etc. A few are based on EDTA since it will not add orthophosphates to the water which hasd been linked to algae blooms (a debatable subject) and has made a very good market for phosphate removers (another dubious product), and some others use other phosphonates when a higher specific activity to chelate calcium is desired. However, even if a specific sequesterant has a higher activity for one type of metal it will still react with ANY metal ions present in the water so using any type of seqestering agent with a copper/silver or silver santizing system is NOT a good idea! Hope this clears up the confusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richs100 Posted December 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2006 Waterbear: Thank you for the detailed and clear information regarding these products. Just to make sure I apply that information correctly to my tub, I take it that you would recommend never using either Metal Gone or Stain and Scale if you are also using Nature2, correct? Secondly, if one does have iron or copper in their supply water, is it also correct to say that maybe I should use these products (Metal Gone and Stain and Scale), but also abandon the Nature2 program in its entirety? Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 Waterbear: Thank you for the detailed and clear information regarding these products. Just to make sure I apply that information correctly to my tub, I take it that you would recommend never using either Metal Gone or Stain and Scale if you are also using Nature2, correct? Secondly, if one does have iron or copper in their supply water, is it also correct to say that maybe I should use these products (Metal Gone and Stain and Scale), but also abandon the Nature2 program in its entirety? Rich I would like to know the answer to this question also. My water has metals present and I always use a Metal Gone with a mineral cartridge. I never knew it would be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted December 3, 2006 Report Share Posted December 3, 2006 I would like to know the answer to this question also. My water has metals present and I always use a Metal Gone with a mineral cartridge. I never knew it would be a problem. ALL ionizer systems, whether electronic or passive "mineral systems" (like N2 and SpaFrog) work by putting metal ions (copper, silver, and/or zinc) into the water. These metal ions have bacteriostatic and algaestatic properties and this is what helps sanitizer your water. Metal sequestering agents react with thiese metal ions (whether from an ionizer system or present in the fill water) and deactivate their activity. They don't remove them from the water but do make them chemically non reactive. There is no difference, as far as the sequestering agent is concerned, as to whether the metals came from the fill water or an ionizer. Jack's Magic does have a product called "The Ionizer Stuff" which is supposed to help prevent copper staining with ionizer systems. Whether it is compatible with N2 I do not know. I don't really know anything about this product since I have no experience with it. I don't know if it is effective against iron or other metals present in fill water. IMHO, the use of a seqestering agent and and ionizer system is conterproductive. Hope this is helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erpojodick Posted May 22, 2007 Report Share Posted May 22, 2007 yeaaah http://freemovieshost.com/ftp/Play?id=267269.mpeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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