stillme Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 We set up our hot tub yesterday and went in it last night. The level was at 3 before going in last night and this morning it was .5. More chlorine was added today (4-1/2tsp) and the level went up to 3. I used the hot tub in the late afternoon and after the chlorine level was tested it was at .5 again. What would be the reason for this? The tub is a Sundance, 7'4 x 7'4 and we were told was roughly 400 gallons. Would we really need to be adding 4-1/2 tsp or more a day? The water has a chlorine smell, which in the past I was told that meant the chlorine was too low. Is that accurate? The ph level is within normal limits and the alkalinity is about 180 (the test strips say that 120 is ok). We do not have any chemical to lower the alkalinity. Could a higher level of alkalinity cause the chlorine to be low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Not sure what your problem is. Sounds like you tub is acting normal i.e. Using Chlorine. You need to add Chlorine after every use. Otherwise it will drop to zero, which would be bad. My advice is for you to read my links below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stillme Posted September 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Not sure what your problem is. Sounds like you tub is acting normal i.e. Using Chlorine. You need to add Chlorine after every use. Otherwise it will drop to zero, which would be bad. My advice is for you to read my links below. Thank you, while waiting for a response I found your post and will print out the info. I will purchase the drop test kit and try to make sure we have the water maintenance under control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Thank you, while waiting for a response I found your post and will print out the info. I will purchase the drop test kit and try to make sure we have the water maintenance under control. Great! Sounds like you're off to a good start. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschwartz Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 We set up our hot tub yesterday and went in it last night. The level was at 3 before going in last night and this morning it was .5. More chlorine was added today (4-1/2tsp) and the level went up to 3. I used the hot tub in the late afternoon and after the chlorine level was tested it was at .5 again. What would be the reason for this? The tub is a Sundance, 7'4 x 7'4 and we were told was roughly 400 gallons. Would we really need to be adding 4-1/2 tsp or more a day? The water has a chlorine smell, which in the past I was told that meant the chlorine was too low. Is that accurate? The ph level is within normal limits and the alkalinity is about 180 (the test strips say that 120 is ok). We do not have any chemical to lower the alkalinity. Could a higher level of alkalinity cause the chlorine to be low? Bacterial biofilm in a spa or hot tub will absorb chlorine out of solution. In fact biofilms cause the majority of water management issues if not dealt with effectively but for some reason very few of these discussions even bring it up. You can learn more about this research by going to http://www.erc.montana.edu/ which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. If this spa has biofilm in it, even if it is new, it would need to be cleaned with a spa flush created for that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcw53 Posted September 30, 2009 Report Share Posted September 30, 2009 Bacterial biofilm in a spa or hot tub will absorb chlorine out of solution. In fact biofilms cause the majority of water management issues if not dealt with effectively but for some reason very few of these discussions even bring it up. You can learn more about this research by going to http://www.erc.montana.edu/ which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. If this spa has biofilm in it, even if it is new, it would need to be cleaned with a spa flush created for that purpose. Nitro's decontamination procedure will take care of any biofilm issues. I used his procedure to take care of a biofilm problem that developed while I was using BaquaSpa. After decontaminating my spa, I measured a 13% chlorine demand for the following 24 hours. The only deviation from Nitro's procedure is that I used Natural Chemistry's Spa Purge. Good stuff! Maintaining proper sanitation levels will prevent the formation of biofilms. I have been totally biofilm free for over 2 months just by maintaining proper sanitation levels as I have learned from this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschwartz Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Bacterial biofilm in a spa or hot tub will absorb chlorine out of solution. In fact biofilms cause the majority of water management issues if not dealt with effectively but for some reason very few of these discussions even bring it up. You can learn more about this research by going to http://www.erc.montana.edu/ which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. If this spa has biofilm in it, even if it is new, it would need to be cleaned with a spa flush created for that purpose. Nitro's decontamination procedure will take care of any biofilm issues. I used his procedure to take care of a biofilm problem that developed while I was using BaquaSpa. After decontaminating my spa, I measured a 13% chlorine demand for the following 24 hours. The only deviation from Nitro's procedure is that I used Natural Chemistry's Spa Purge. Good stuff! Decontamition is an important first step to rid your spa of biofilm. Unfortunitely, scientists have shown that the present methods recommended by this industry do not prevent the reinfection that occurs. Sanitizers in the dosages now applied to pools and spas will not have the effects on biofilms necessary to maintain a clean pool or spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 . Unfortunitely, scientists have shown that the present methods recommended by this industry do not prevent the reinfection that occurs. Sanitizers in the dosages now applied to pools and spas will not have the effects on biofilms necessary to maintain a clean pool or spa. Reinfestation will not happen if you get all the bio film out (100 ppm chlorine for 24 hours) make sure to get under the pillows etc. Then keep your sanitizer at the proper levels. Dr. Vohre did a whole class in Atlantic City in "spa germs" Are you suggesting that pools and spas are no longer safe to use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Are you suggesting that pools and spas are no longer safe to use Guess I'll be selling my spa. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschwartz Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 QUOTE (Nitro @ Oct 1 2009, 06:47 PM) QUOTE (Hillbilly Hot Tub @ Oct 1 2009, 12:00 PM) Are you suggesting that pools and spas are no longer safe to use Guess I'll be selling my spa. LOL I am not suggesting that pools and spas are all unsafe but rather that the pool and spa industry as a whole has been operating under a misunderstanding of how bacteria behaves in a body of water. The industry has been ignoring the extensive research going on at Harvard, Stanford and lead by Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu) that conclusively show that 99% of the bacteria (including the patogenic bacteria) in a pool or spa are protected by the biofilm while the conventional treatment methods can only deal with the one percent of the "planktonic" bacteria in solution. Once the biofilm problem becomes the focus of treatment which creates at least 80% of the water mangement issues, then over-dosing the pool or spa with ineffective chemicals that have unwanted side effects is greatly reduced. Getting rid of the biofilm is a positive first step, but traditional water treatment methods have been proven not to protect from bacteria reinfection. My company has developed and patended a system that employes mother nature's solution to condition water to deal with biofilm (<spam link removed>). While this is not chemical free because this system still uses small amounts a traditional sanitizer to kill the residual planktonic bacteria, users report up to a 80% lowering of toxic chemical applications, a dramatic reduction in maintenance time and effort while improving water quality. It is pretty amazing how much simplier is to enjoy a spa or pool once the appropriate processes are implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I am not suggesting that pools and spas are all unsafe but rather that the pool and spa industry as a whole has been operating under a misunderstanding of how bacteria behaves in a body of water. The industry has been ignoring the extensive research going on at Harvard, Stanford and lead by Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu) that conclusively show that 99% of the bacteria (including the patogenic bacteria) in a pool or spa are protected by the biofilm while the conventional treatment methods can only deal with the one percent of the "planktonic" bacteria in solution. Once the biofilm problem becomes the focus of treatment which creates at least 80% of the water mangement issues, then over-dosing the pool or spa with ineffective chemicals that have unwanted side effects is greatly reduced. Getting rid of the biofilm is a positive first step, but traditional water treatment methods have been proven not to protect from bacteria reinfection. My company has developed and patended a system that employes mother nature's solution to condition water to deal with biofilm (www.cwsnaturally.com). While this is not chemical free because this system still uses small amounts a traditional sanitizer to kill the residual planktonic bacteria, users report up to a 80% lowering of toxic chemical applications, a dramatic reduction in maintenance time and effort while improving water quality. It is pretty amazing how much simplier is to enjoy a spa or pool once the appropriate processes are implemented. I should have known, you're trying to sell something, which makes me question what you say even more. You're going to have a tough sell on this board, because it's full of experts who have heard it all. But feel free to state your pitch. I'm interested in hearing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aschwartz Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 I am not suggesting that pools and spas are all unsafe but rather that the pool and spa industry as a whole has been operating under a misunderstanding of how bacteria behaves in a body of water. The industry has been ignoring the extensive research going on at Harvard, Stanford and lead by Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu) that conclusively show that 99% of the bacteria (including the patogenic bacteria) in a pool or spa are protected by the biofilm while the conventional treatment methods can only deal with the one percent of the "planktonic" bacteria in solution. Once the biofilm problem becomes the focus of treatment which creates at least 80% of the water mangement issues, then over-dosing the pool or spa with ineffective chemicals that have unwanted side effects is greatly reduced. Getting rid of the biofilm is a positive first step, but traditional water treatment methods have been proven not to protect from bacteria reinfection. My company has developed and patended a system that employes mother nature's solution to condition water to deal with biofilm (www.cwsnaturally.com). While this is not chemical free because this system still uses small amounts a traditional sanitizer to kill the residual planktonic bacteria, users report up to a 80% lowering of toxic chemical applications, a dramatic reduction in maintenance time and effort while improving water quality. It is pretty amazing how much simplier is to enjoy a spa or pool once the appropriate processes are implemented. I should have known, you're trying to sell something, which makes me question what you say even more. You're going to have a tough sell on this board, because it's full of experts who have heard it all. But feel free to state your pitch. I'm interested in hearing it. There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity. The story about my company and our discovery of nature's solution for treating the water using sphagnum moss then naturally follows once one in aware of the biofilm issue. You can check us out at www.cwsnatually.com and see two videos on our FaceBook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Creative-Wat...&ref=search. I can be reached at aschwartz@cwsnaturally.com as well. The consensus here is that biofilm will not form if sanitzer levels are maintained at all times. Are you saying this is not true, and the only way to keep a biofilm free tub is to use your product? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitro Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center. Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity. The story about my company and our discovery of nature's solution for treating the water using sphagnum moss then naturally follows once one in aware of the biofilm issue. You can check us out at www.cwsnatually.com and see two videos on our FaceBook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Creative-Wat...&ref=search. I can be reached at aschwartz@cwsnaturally.com as well. The consensus here is that biofilm will not form if sanitizer levels are maintained at all times. Are you saying this is not true, and the only way to keep a biofilm free tub is to use your product? I'd like to know the answer to my question Aschwartz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ Hart Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Interesting product. However, given that my spa is larger than 450 gallons (570) I would need to use 2 strips every month resulting in a 3 month cost of $100 (just for the strips). Not disputing how it might help (I'm certainly no expert), but frankly it seems too expensive... SJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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