Tomab Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I recently drained and filled my tub. I know the recommended amount of borates Nitro suggests is 50ppm. If I follow the instructions on the bottle of Gentle Spa which suggests 4 oz. of Gentle Spa to every 150 Gallons will this give me approximately 50 ppm? It doesn't specify on the bottle how many ppm's this will give. I'm just making sure. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Gentle Spa is mostly boric acid. 4 ounces weight of Boric Acid in 150 gallons would be 35 ppm. For a 350 gallon spa, to get to 50 ppm you would want to use about 13-14 ounces weight of Boric Acid (Gentle Spa). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomab Posted August 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 I checked the ProTeam website and found the MDS on Gentle Spa and the main ingredient is "tetraborate pentahydrate". I also wanted to confirm this with the company and they replied in an email that if used as directed on the bottle which is 4 oz. per 150 gallon would provide 30 ppm of Gentle Spa(borate). This is exactly in sync with what the pool calculator indicates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcw53 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I also wanted to confirm this with the company and they replied in an email that if used as directed on the bottle which is 4 oz. per 150 gallon would provide 30 ppm of Gentle Spa(borate). This is exactly in sync with what the pool calculator indicates. I think that is exactly correct. I had calculated 20 oz / 450 gallon to get 50 ppm when I added Gentle Spa to my hot tub. BTW, you can save money by using ProTeam's Supreme PLUS. Chemically identical to Gentle Spa, but in larger sizes (for pools). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomab Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 I also wanted to confirm this with the company and they replied in an email that if used as directed on the bottle which is 4 oz. per 150 gallon would provide 30 ppm of Gentle Spa(borate). This is exactly in sync with what the pool calculator indicates. I think that is exactly correct. I had calculated 20 oz / 450 gallon to get 50 ppm when I added Gentle Spa to my hot tub. BTW, you can save money by using ProTeam's Supreme PLUS. Chemically identical to Gentle Spa, but in larger sizes (for pools). I saw that on the website and wondered about that. I saw that the main ingredient was the same but wondered if there was anything different than what's in GentleSpa. Like no fragrance and that sort of thing...if thats important to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 The ProTeam Gentle Spa MSDS is here and it lists BOTH "sodium tetraborate pentahydrate" AND "boric acid" along with "fragrance". I can tell you with certainty that the main component cannot be the tetraborate in spite of it being listed first IF this product is pH balanced. tetraborate is very basic (high in pH) while boric acid is close to pH neutral -- at least when added to buffered spa water. They do not list the percentages and only say "proprietary" and may even have things out of order to intentionally make it harder for someone to copy, though it's not really that hard to figure out. As I had written, 4 ounces of Boric Acid per 150 gallons would yield 35 ppm. 4 ounces of sodium tetraborate pentahydrate per 150 gallons would yield 30 ppm. This is close enough for anyone to just call it "30 ppm" even if the former were true and it were 35. It's not a big deal, but I'm telling you it's mostly boric acid -- otherwise, it would raise the pH a lot, from 7.5 to 8.9, for example. Yes, there is some tetraborate in there, but only enough to compensate for the slight acidity of the boric acid. The reason I'm being picky about this is I don't want anyone thinking they can go out and buy sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, or even 20 Mule Team Borax which is sodium tetraborate decahydrate (the only difference being the amount of water it contains) since such products would require acid to be used in order to be pH balanced. If one wants to buy a nearly pH neutral source or borates, then they should get Boric Acid. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomab Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 The ProTeam Gentle Spa MSDS is here and it lists BOTH "sodium tetraborate pentahydrate" AND "boric acid" along with "fragrance". I can tell you with certainty that the main component cannot be the tetraborate in spite of it being listed first IF this product is pH balanced. tetraborate is very basic (high in pH) while boric acid is close to pH neutral -- at least when added to buffered spa water. They do not list the percentages and only say "proprietary" and may even have things out of order to intentionally make it harder for someone to copy, though it's not really that hard to figure out. As I had written, 4 ounces of Boric Acid per 150 gallons would yield 35 ppm. 4 ounces of sodium tetraborate pentahydrate per 150 gallons would yield 30 ppm. This is close enough for anyone to just call it "30 ppm" even if the former were true and it were 35. It's not a big deal, but I'm telling you it's mostly boric acid -- otherwise, it would raise the pH a lot, from 7.5 to 8.9, for example. Yes, there is some tetraborate in there, but only enough to compensate for the slight acidity of the boric acid. The reason I'm being picky about this is I don't want anyone thinking they can go out and buy sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, or even 20 Mule Team Borax which is sodium tetraborate decahydrate (the only difference being the amount of water it contains) since such products would require acid to be used in order to be pH balanced. If one wants to buy a nearly pH neutral source or borates, then they should get Boric Acid. Richard It seems we have two different MSDS out there. Here is the one I got from their website. The one I looked at only lists the sodium tetraborate decahydrate along with someother unlisted proprietary ingredient. Maybe fragrance or boric acid like chem geek mentioned? I don't know...nor do I pretend to. But I will say this, what Richard(chem geek) described would happen if you added sodium tetraborate decahydrate is exactly what happen to me. Meaning my ph shot up significantly. I mean off the charts! I then had to add acid to reduce the ph. By no means was the Gentle Spa I added even close to ph neutral. I'm definately not trying to be argumentative. Just letting everyone know what I experienced and trying to figure this out and understand a little bit what my family and I are soaking in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaSplash Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 Is Orthoboric acid 99% (roach killer) an acceptable compound to use in a spa as a borate ??? Lo Voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 Orthoboric acid is a synonym for boric acid so yes, it could be used in place of Proteam Gentle Spa, assuming it's fairly pure (as you indicated). It's only roach killer when in concentrated form as insects are unable to excrete boron, unlike humans who can (at least in smaller quantities). See this video for a nice explanation in a video presentation. More info on borates safety is in this thread (basically, don't drink pool or spa water in large quantities on a daily basis and don't have dogs drinking regularly from it either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaSplash Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 Thank you Chem Geek, I appreciate the thoroughness of your response. Best to you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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