Newbies In The Hot Tub Area Looking For Advice

[armtek]

My wife and I are going into the next phase of our home remodeling that involves a Hot Tub. Note that the previous phase included upgrading our electrical box (GE replacing an old FPE), so at least that side of things is already covered.

As stated in the title, we are newbies at this. We're nearing the end of the data gathering stage and will downselect and start wet testing later this week. Bottom line (pun intended) is how the tub feels and whether the placement of the jets is appropriate for us. All of this will be answered during wet tests, but my concern is the mechanical/structural side of things to bring a dose of reality and prevent us from getting carried away if something feels really good. Listening to the dealers the last several weeks has been a chore, each one trying to tout what makes their tubs different (and in reality, things break down into a couple of camps).

I do have an extensive technical background so I thought the one thing that I'm not getting is an unbiased answer to some questions. The last thing I want here is to create another 'project' for me to work on. Sorry if this may be repeated but I've searched through the forums and hadn't seen quite exactly what I wanted to find out in one place. Here's the questions I'd like an opinion on (I'll try and stay away from specific brands until later, but the questions may give you a hint of what direction we're presently leaning:

1) Natural vs Synthetic/Plastic surfaces - I'm a big fan of wood, but one dealer here in Colorado has a 'boneyard' of old spas that were traded in for their brand, and it's scary to see what failure mechanisms (cosmetic, structural, and functional) that are evident, but none is more obvious cosmetically than fading and breakdown of the wood surfaces. Also, here in CO we have an abundance of UV light that can expedite the breakdown of plastics, hence my concern about synthetics. What experiences have you folks had out there?

2) Efficiency of Full Foam vs 'hot box' - I'm a big fan of recycling the energy wasted with pumps, etc., and it's hard to take that heat and inject it back into the water via heat exchanges, but using the heat to keep the cavity around the tub warm makes sense, provided the 'box' itself is very well insulated. 'Unbiased' testing touted by one dealer shows that the 'hot box' approach is actually more efficient, not to mention the ability to maintain and detect leaks. Does anyone have data from the 'real' world, e.g. anyone upgrade from full foam to 'hot box' or vice versa? In our environment here in the Denver metro area, I doubt we'll get sufficiently hot to cause the thermal protection to kick in, but who knows? How well do the electronic components work in hot, humid environments?

3) Filtration - Some of the tubs we've seen have programmed systems that kick the main pumps into action periodically to circulate the water when the system is idle, others have a 'dedicated' pump that continuously circulates water. Other than the obvious annoyance of a pump kicking off in the middle of the night, does either method have an economic or functional advantage?

4) High-altitude specific questions - No offense intended to the low-altitude folks, but we at higher altitudes have issues with UV interaction with spa shells, covers, etc. Many of the dealers tout their warranties, but just like the insurance agents that gets to tell the client that floods aren't covered under regular insurance, I've heard (and seen) horror stories of shells that craze and pop off, only to have the dealer decline coverage because it was exposed to UV. So, is there any particular brand/construction that really works at higher altitudes? No sales crap, just real data.

Anyway, don't be shy if you don't have input to all four questions :-). We're going to be making a decision in a week or so,. Now that we've gone through the questions, here's the brands we've studied so far, and first cut at priority considering value, seating arrangement, jet number/placement, pump system, etc. Another point of reference is that we're looking at a 7' with at least one lounge, and as our student/athlete kids (17 yo daughter, 15 yo son) need someplace to unwind, and our price limit right now is appx $9K:

1) Clearwater

2) Wind River

3) Jacuzzi

4) Marquis/Everyday Hot Tubs

5) Arctic

6) Bullfrog

7) the rest...

Thanks in advance!

[Peteyboy]

First I would have had HotSpring near the top of your list. I AM BIASED TO HOTSPRING.

1. Definitely go with the synthetic exterior - just wipe it down.

2. I prefer full foam. I would rather my jet pumps expel hot air out of the spa. I want a cool running jet pump.

3. I would go for 24 hour circulation. HotSpring uses a pump that draws about .4 amps. Very energy efficient and it has it's own filter that in effect filters 24/7.

4. This may sound like sales crap but HotSpring has spas in Alaska and Saudi Arabia. I think they can hold up. You must take care of the cabinet and cover using protectants that inhibit UV.

Even the largest HotSpring shouldn't cost more than $20 in electrical costs per month to operate, and probably less.

Look hard into the warranties, some are misleading to be mild.

Like I said I am biased to HotSpring. I am a tech and shoot from the hip. I have been servicing them since 1987 and nothing can compare to the failure rate in my opinion.

Good Luck in your spa search - BE SURE WHAT YOU PICK IS COMFORTABLE FOR YOU.

[JerimiahR]

1) Wood requires constant maintenance. Period. Stain, sand, repeat. Synthetic requires a blast from the hose now and again to wash it off. The synthetic cabinets these days do very well to be honest. Most of the premature fading issues have been worked out. Personally, I'd just stay away from wood cabinets simply because they are a chore.

2) Full Foam vs "Hot Box": Look at it this way. You just remodeled your house. Let's say you were even building a brand new house. If the builder/contractor said, "Well, we can fill the walls with insulation, or we can re-route your furnace to heat the hollow space in the walls." Which would you do?

Here's the other problem with using your jet pump heat to actually "heat the dead space". Those pumps, as they admit, turn on and off intermittently. So you're not heating that space all the time in the first place.

As far as using the wasted heat to benefit your spa. Hot Spring actually has a patented "Heat Shroud" they use for their jet pumps. Basically, the same heat other companies claim heats the dead empty space, is actually pulled off the jet pump, and used to heat the air being injected into your jets. All hot tubs use air to allow you to adjust jet pressure feel. The difference is, where that heat comes from. Hot Spring has hot/warm air, others pull air from outside.

3) Jet Pump Cycles vs Circulation Pump: You can either have a very, very low power circulating pump that filters water 24/7, and never makes annoying noise. Or, you can use a large jet pump that turns on and off throughout the day and night, using more energy, and creating more wear and tear on the pump itself. Ultimately, that's the two camps. Hot Spring specifically, uses a circulation pump that's rated at using 39W per it's label. Jet pumps vary depending on size, but guaranteed you'll spend more on energy (and replacing the pump in a shorter time period).

4) I work with and sell Hot Spring Spas here in Bozeman, MT. We're about 5,000 feet elevation, and generally a colder/harsher climate than parts of Colorado. Synthetic cabinets and such used to fade pretty badly years ago. But in all honesty, I've seen 4 and 5 year old Hot Spring Spas that look as good as new on their external cabinets still.

As far as the hot tub shell goes, just don't leave it empty with the cover open in the sunlight. A spa as well insulated as Hot Spring, when left empty in the sunlight, will get very very hot. This can damage the shell. Under normal circumstances though, when it's full of water, I'm not worried about them at all.

To make a note on what Peteyboy said. I just had a customer order a spa from me two days ago, who told me part of the reason he bought a Hot Spring was due to his sister in Alaska having a Hot Spring. Apparently she told him, "Everyone in Alaska owns a Hot Spring." LOL I'm sure there's other spas up there, but those were her words.

[iflych52]

I will be very interested in your wet tests as you seem to have been very thoughtful in your research and questions. I have looked at Bullfrog, Sundance, and HotSpring and wet tested each. I can get a great deal on a 08 Sundance Optima but I just did not like the jets. Good on my lower back but not across my shoulders and neck which is what I am looking for. I tested a BF 682 because I liked the size and dealer said go with the bigger tub, however I tested a BF 462 at a different dealer and really liked it. I am 6'1" and it just seemed to fit so well. I could set my feet across a brace myself well. I also liked the placement of the foot jets as well as a few of the fixed jet for my hands and wrists. BF has two speed pumps with low just moving the water around (ie not much massage) and high being very nice for what I like. The Optima seemed stronger than the BR but I was getting pushed out of the seat or getting the itchy feeling a strong jet can give. I also liked the massage action of the different jet packs I tried. I like the size of the 682 because I have four small children but I am buying the tub for me. My wife wants warm bubblie water. I have wet tested a HS Envoy but did not like the lounger, I floated out of it. Really like the moto massage and the rotary jets. I am interested in the Vanguard but have not wet tested. The new 09 has lots of eye candy with the lights. Justs my two cents.

[Roger]

1) Wood requires constant maintenance. Period. Stain, sand, repeat. Synthetic requires a blast from the hose now and again to wash it off. The synthetic cabinets these days do very well to be honest. Most of the premature fading issues have been worked out. Personally, I'd just stay away from wood cabinets simply because they are a chore.

I'd just like to mention that a rag and a coat of tung oil once a year (takes about an hour) will produce a wood cabinet that will last for many, many years. No sanding just a wipe down with an oil soaked rag. Nothing beats the look of a easily maintained wood cabinet.

While I like some synthetic also, I would still opt for the hour a year it takes to maintain a quality wood cabinet for it's looks. But this is just me.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

1) Wood requires constant maintenance. Period. Stain, sand, repeat. Synthetic requires a blast from the hose now and again to wash it off. The synthetic cabinets these days do very well to be honest. Most of the premature fading issues have been worked out. Personally, I'd just stay away from wood cabinets simply because they are a chore.

I'd just like to mention that a rag and a coat of tung oil once a year (takes about an hour) will produce a wood cabinet that will last for many, many years. No sanding just a wipe down with an oil soaked rag. Nothing beats the look of a easily maintained wood cabinet.

While I like some synthetic also, I would still opt for the hour a year it takes to maintain a quality wood cabinet for it's looks. But this is just me.

Wood cabinets look great new. The problem is I see many spas that are only a couple years old looking very weathered not to mention the ones that are 5, 7, 10 years old that look twice their age. Sure, if someone looks after the upkeep of the wood it can look good for many years but that person seems to be the exception more than the rule in my experience so spa customers really have to be honest with themselves about whether they'll actually do it if there is a choice to be made.

The synthetic cabinets that first came out at the beginning of the decade were so-so but by mid decade some pretty nice wood alternatives arrived and now after 3 or 4 years you can see that they are holding up well (SOME that is). To each his own but for me, I'll take a good wood alternative if I had to choose.

[JerimiahR]

I'd just like to mention that a rag and a coat of tung oil once a year (takes about an hour) will produce a wood cabinet that will last for many, many years. No sanding just a wipe down with an oil soaked rag. Nothing beats the look of a easily maintained wood cabinet.

While I like some synthetic also, I would still opt for the hour a year it takes to maintain a quality wood cabinet for it's looks. But this is just me.

While I agree with your method, I disagree with it's application. Let's face it, we Americans are generally pretty lazy these days. Even if it does only take an hour's worth of work, it usually becomes a "I'll do it later." Eventually, you forget about it, and it never gets done. My experience has shown me that most of the wood sided hot tubs don't get taken care of, and therefore the climate beats them up pretty badly. The longer you wait, the more work it takes to make it look pretty again.

If you're a wood craftsman like my father in law, and retired, then do real wood.

Synthetic cabinets are all about low maintenance. If that's what you want, the synthetic cabinets these days are pretty decent.

Though even synthetic products have their limits. They used Trex (or similar) decking material at Old Faithful in Yellowstone National park. And it's starting to show some weathering. Course we're talking extreme climate (hot and cold) and lots of sulfur and other chemicals in the air, water, and soil.

[Water Boy]

If you decide to go with the Arctic Spa, you can go with either or. Arctic still offers the cedar cabinet option, or the eon cabinet option which would be maintenance free. For our customers that go with wood, we come out once a year and stain it for no charge as long as they buy their chems from us, and they are required to call and schedule. Customers love that, and it keeps them returning to the store. Plus it keeps their spas looking new for years to come!

[iflych52]

If you decide to go with the Arctic Spa, you can go with either or. Arctic still offers the cedar cabinet option, or the eon cabinet option which would be maintenance free. For our customers that go with wood, we come out once a year and stain it for no charge as long as they buy their chems from us, and they are required to call and schedule. Customers love that, and it keeps them returning to the store. Plus it keeps their spas looking new for years to come!

That is good customer service! In my office I like to do free recalls. It keeps me in touch and can some times take care of little problems before they become big ones.

[Water Boy]

If you decide to go with the Arctic Spa, you can go with either or. Arctic still offers the cedar cabinet option, or the eon cabinet option which would be maintenance free. For our customers that go with wood, we come out once a year and stain it for no charge as long as they buy their chems from us, and they are required to call and schedule. Customers love that, and it keeps them returning to the store. Plus it keeps their spas looking new for years to come!

That is good customer service! In my office I like to do free recalls. It keeps me in touch and can some times take care of little problems before they become big ones.

That is a good idea. Usually free recalls will lead to more business as well. Change of filter, chem refills, etc. Great idea!

[armtek]

Thanks to all the input. For the most part, all of our dealer experiences have been relatively positive (well versed on their specs, relatively knowledgeable of the competition, pointing out their advantages more than tearing down the competition, etc.), until we visited the local Hot Springs dealer. Very obnoxious, and was more than ready to tell me everything bad about the other products, but couldn't even tell us how many jets one of his own tubs had. Oh well, certainly not going to be buying from them.

Given the fact that everyone seems to have their own methods/tests for measuring energy usage, can someone point us to a good 'independent' evaluation of energy consumptions under the SAME conditions? Searches Can the reports from the California Energy Commission being obtained from the web? I've read articles that tell a number of models from each vendor passed the CEC, but no details. Also, can anyone tell us what the CEC guidelines for passing the energy test really means (other than allowing that model to be sold in CA)?

Thanks again for all your help!

[JerimiahR]

There's been some debate over how the CEC requires the testing to be performed. To the extent that, if I recall correctly, larger hot tubs (more gallons of water) actually have a statistical advantage over smaller (less gallons) hot tubs. However, you can view the details here:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/databa...ectric_Spas.zip

[Water Boy]

Thanks to all the input. For the most part, all of our dealer experiences have been relatively positive (well versed on their specs, relatively knowledgeable of the competition, pointing out their advantages more than tearing down the competition, etc.), until we visited the local Hot Springs dealer. Very obnoxious, and was more than ready to tell me everything bad about the other products, but couldn't even tell us how many jets one of his own tubs had. Oh well, certainly not going to be buying from them.

Given the fact that everyone seems to have their own methods/tests for measuring energy usage, can someone point us to a good 'independent' evaluation of energy consumptions under the SAME conditions? Searches Can the reports from the California Energy Commission being obtained from the web? I've read articles that tell a number of models from each vendor passed the CEC, but no details. Also, can anyone tell us what the CEC guidelines for passing the energy test really means (other than allowing that model to be sold in CA)?

Thanks again for all your help!

Armtek,

I personally would NOT use the CEC results as any sort of guideline. Do a search on here for California Energy Commission and you will see why. The results are self reported from each manufacturer, and if their self report meets the CEC standard, they make the list, which really make the R-ratings a joke. Also, not everyone measures the R value the same way either. Until they make it where there is third party testing done on the spas, its meaningless really. Just an FYI.