Trying To Raise Ph

[Bugman1400]

Since opening the pool, I've added 30 lbs of Soda Ash. My pH went to 7.8, but has since dropped down to 7.0 after a few weeks. I tried Borax, but I added it to the pool directly and it seemed not to mix well. However, I can't tell if it was the Borax or extra DE from the DE filter. How should Borax be added to a liner pool?

Also, I played around with The Pool Calculator and it shows that you need less Soda Ash than Borax. Is this because Soda Ash is more alkaline? Is it possible to use lye?

Also, are there any products that add just Cl without adding CYA? My CYA level is 80-ish.

[chem geek]

You are probably using Trichlor pucks which are very acidic so could explain why your pH dropped. Since Trichlor is acidic and lowers both pH and TA, using Soda Ash can be OK to bring both up. If you use Borax, it raises the pH, but only raises the TA by half as much as soda ash. You use twice as much Borax as Soda Ash by weight, but in $ it still works out to be less expensive to use the Borax. Though lye is more concentrated, there is no need to use that in your pool.

30 pounds of Soda Ash is an awful lot -- what is the size of your pool and how many Trichlor pucks have you used in that time?

Since your CYA has risen, you should use unstabilized chlorine -- chlorinating liquid or bleach. You could use Cal-Hypo, but that will increase the Calcium Hardness (CH). Lithium hypochlorite is your only other choice for unstabilized chlorine, but it's very expensive.

[Bugman1400]

You are probably using Trichlor pucks which are very acidic so could explain why your pH dropped. Since Trichlor is acidic and lowers both pH and TA, using Soda Ash can be OK to bring both up. If you use Borax, it raises the pH, but only raises the TA by half as much as soda ash. You use twice as much Borax as Soda Ash by weight, but in $ it still works out to be less expensive to use the Borax. Though lye is more concentrated, there is no need to use that in your pool.

30 pounds of Soda Ash is an awful lot -- what is the size of your pool and how many Trichlor pucks have you used in that time?

Since your CYA has risen, you should use unstabilized chlorine -- chlorinating liquid or bleach. You could use Cal-Hypo, but that will increase the Calcium Hardness (CH). Lithium hypochlorite is your only other choice for unstabilized chlorine, but it's very expensive.

My pool is 26K gallons. I have a Hayward Chlorine feeder and usually just fill the thing to the top with pucks. All in all, I've used about 20 pucks.

Should I quit using the pucks and use just liquid bleach instead?

[chem geek]

My pool is 26K gallons. I have a Hayward Chlorine feeder and usually just fill the thing to the top with pucks. All in all, I've used about 20 pucks.

Should I quit using the pucks and use just liquid bleach instead?

That's up to you, but if you decide to keep using pucks, then you'll need to use a weekly algaecide (PolyQuat 60) or a phosphate remover to prevent algae growth, both at extra cost. It's a cost/convenience tradeoff though there are automated dosing systems for chlorinating liquid or bleach (e.g. The Liquidator).

I suggest you read at the Pool School for more info.

[Bugman1400]

My pool is 26K gallons. I have a Hayward Chlorine feeder and usually just fill the thing to the top with pucks. All in all, I've used about 20 pucks.

Should I quit using the pucks and use just liquid bleach instead?

That's up to you, but if you decide to keep using pucks, then you'll need to use a weekly algaecide (PolyQuat 60) or a phosphate remover to prevent algae growth, both at extra cost. It's a cost/convenience tradeoff though there are automated dosing systems for chlorinating liquid or bleach (e.g. The Liquidator).

I suggest you read at the Pool School for more info.

After reading The Pool School, I will not be using pucks unless I have low CYA. I have been reading posts to try and figure out a SWG. I'm not sure if Pentair or AutoChlor is better. Which do you prefer? Meanwhile, I will start using plain bleach.

[chem geek]

I don't know SWG brands so can't make a recommendation there. Others may have experience or opinions about the best SWG brands.

[txpoolguy]

When considering electronic chlorine generators (SWG), I strongly recommend the Goldine AquaRite system. Goldline is an industry leader in electronic chlorine generators. Most other brands can't claim the longevity and innovation that Goldline owns. Goldline developed much of the technology that other brands use today.

[imnay]

I can only speak from our 20 plus years of managing our own pool (and our test kit instructions back the following up)

To raise PH you add bicarb of soda - NOT soda ash.

To raise Alkalinity you add soda ash - NOT bicarb of soda.

The two compounds are entirely different in chemical make up. I can't be wrong cause this has worked always and perfectly all these years, our pool installer said so and he was right and our pool test kit says the same thing.

bicarb of soda to raise PH

soda ash to raise Alkalinity

GoodLuck

[chem geek]

I can only speak from our 20 plus years of managing our own pool (and our test kit instructions back the following up)

To raise PH you add bicarb of soda - NOT soda ash.

To raise Alkalinity you add soda ash - NOT bicarb of soda.

The two compounds are entirely different in chemical make up. I can't be wrong cause this has worked always and perfectly all these years, our pool installer said so and he was right and our pool test kit says the same thing.

bicarb of soda to raise PH

soda ash to raise Alkalinity

GoodLuck

You have this backwards. Baking Soda, sodium bicarbonate, will raise the TA much more than it raises the pH. Soda Ash, sodium carbonate, will raise both the pH and the TA.

Take a look at BioGuard Balance Pak 100 here used to maintain Total Alkalinity (TA). This product is sodium bicarbonate (same as baking soda) (see MSDS here) and you can see the related product Balance Pak 200 which is sodium carbonate (see MSDS here) which is used to raise pH.

The compounds are related. In fact, pH Up, sodium carbonate, Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda are all identical, but are also exactly the same as mixing together sodium bicarbonate, Arm & Hammer Baking Soda with Lye/Caustic Soda/Sodium Hydroxide. That is, pH Up or sodium carbonate is the same as adding a pure base along with baking soda which is why the net effect is an increase in BOTH pH and TA.

I only have 6 years of experience with my own pool, but in my experience the baking soda raises TA quite a lot and only changes the pH somewhat while pH Up raises both the pH and the TA. I will say that the pH rises from baking soda more than perfect "theory" would predict if perfectly mixed, but that's most likely because some carbon dioxide outgasses right away on the surface when you add the baking soda since it makes the TA very high until it gets more thoroughly mixed.

Richard

[Wobbly]

You are probably using Trichlor pucks which are very acidic so could explain why your pH dropped. Since Trichlor is acidic and lowers both pH and TA, using Soda Ash can be OK to bring both up. If you use Borax, it raises the pH, but only raises the TA by half as much as soda ash. You use twice as much Borax as Soda Ash by weight, but in $ it still works out to be less expensive to use the Borax. Though lye is more concentrated, there is no need to use that in your pool.

Checking with a local agricultural concentrate dealer's price list: 50# of soda ash is $17.

50# of Ten-Lo Borax is $46. How could borax dosing be cheaper?

In any case, thanks for your educating efforts here.

[chem geek]

You are probably using Trichlor pucks which are very acidic so could explain why your pH dropped. Since Trichlor is acidic and lowers both pH and TA, using Soda Ash can be OK to bring both up. If you use Borax, it raises the pH, but only raises the TA by half as much as soda ash. You use twice as much Borax as Soda Ash by weight, but in $ it still works out to be less expensive to use the Borax. Though lye is more concentrated, there is no need to use that in your pool.

Checking with a local agricultural concentrate dealer's price list: 50# of soda ash is $17.

50# of Ten-Lo Borax is $46. How could borax dosing be cheaper?

In any case, thanks for your educating efforts here.

Borax isn't cheaper unless you are comparing pool store prices vs. grocery store in which case they are closer though pH Up can be less expensive for the amount you need to raise the pH. The Borax raises the TA half as much as the pH Up for the same pH rise.

20 Mule Team Borax sold here is $5 for 76 ounces or about $1.05 per pound which is roughly your bulk price for it. Typical pH Up pricing is here at around $10 for 6 pounds or $1.67. It seems that your price for soda ash is a great bargain. Remember that you need to use twice the weight of Borax compared to pH Up for the same pH rise so the Borax is somewhat more expensive than pH Up (a lot more, if you get your soda ash cheaply as you do).

[waterbear]

I can only speak from our 20 plus years of managing our own pool (and our test kit instructions back the following up)

To raise PH you add bicarb of soda - NOT soda ash.

To raise Alkalinity you add soda ash - NOT bicarb of soda.

The two compounds are entirely different in chemical make up. I can't be wrong cause this has worked always and perfectly all these years, our pool installer said so and he was right and our pool test kit says the same thing.

bicarb of soda to raise PH

soda ash to raise Alkalinity

GoodLuck

Since you got these two mixed up (Soda ash rasies pH AND TA, baking soda raises TA) I guess owning a pool for 20 years as you keep bragging about has not taught you too much about pool care so your advice is not very good to follow.

[kellyhayes]

What ? 30 pounds of Soda Ash is an awful lot -- In this size you need to use a weekly algaecide (PolyQuat 60) or a phosphate remover to prevent algae growth, both at extra cost.

regards,

kelly

_______________

Simulation pret

[chem geek]

In this size you need to use a weekly algaecide (PolyQuat 60) or a phosphate remover to prevent algae growth, both at extra cost.

You do not need an algaecide or phosphate remover to prevent algae growth and can instead use chlorine alone IF one maintains the appropriate FC/CYA ratio. In the situation described in this thread, it seems that Trichlor pucks/tabs are being used so yes an algaecide or phopshate remover would buy some time but it won't work forever as the CYA level likely will keep climbing unless there is significant dilution of the water. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm. Even with a low 1 ppm FC per day chlorine usage, this is over 100 ppm CYA added in 6 months. The amount of active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) that does most of the oxidiation and sanitation and algae prevention is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio so as the CYA climbs without a proportional increase in FC, then algae can grow faster than chlorine can kill it.

The chlorine/CYA relationship has been known definitively since at least 1974 as described in this paper. Ben Powell first determined the FC/CYA amounts needed to prevent algae growth as far back as 2003 or perhaps even as far back as 1997 -- his Best Guess CYA chart has since been modified to include mustard/yellow algae prevention levels and conformance with chemical theory here though a simplified version of this chart is here. There are over 20,000 members at The PoolForum and over 10,000 members at Trouble Free Pool who maintain their pools at minimal cost and chemical usage by just using chlorine alone to control algae and provide sanitation and oxidation of bather waste.

My 16,000 gallon pool shown here costs only around $17 per month in chlorine at roughly 1 ppm FC per day (I have an opaque pool cover that cuts down chlorine loss from sunlight though the pool is used every day for 1-2 hours and more on weekends). I use 12.5% chlorinating liquid from my local pool store (they reuse the bottles so that's even better than recyling). The pH is fairly stable and I add a small amount of acid every 1-2 months. No algaecides, no phosphate removers, no clarifiers, no metal ions, nothing extra. My fill water has 300-500 ppb phosphates (that the water utility adds for corrosion control) and the pool has had 2000-3000 ppb phosphates yet algae is controlled by chlorine alone where I don't let the FC get below 7.5% of the CYA level (except one time as a mistake during startup this year).

Richard

[floater]

enough people have already posted that 30lbs of soda ash is alot, but i'll put my two cents in too. you prolly added baking soda, not soda ash. they a simular name, and kinda almost simular chararistics, (apperiantly after 20 years tho, the chararistics switch. lol) but the amount needed for the job are very different. also your pool at 26k would have looked like milk after 30lbs of soda ash. easy mistake tho.

with the trichlor tabs just keeping your alkalinty in check with baking soda will keep your PH rite. assuming your water is balanced to begin with.

After owning a jetted bath tub for 22 years i've found that even with trichlor tabs i rarley have to add soda ash, as long as i keep my alkalinaty at about 110-120, no less than 100, with bakin soda.