Foam, High Cya, Dropping Ph..... O My!

[CountThis]

Sooo..... I'm having a new problem with my hot tub. About 1 week ago I started noticing that the hot tub started foaming significantly. Usually I use a de-foamer but this was just crazy! Lots of foam if I turned the jets on but then it would dissipate once they were off. My wife and I don't wash our bathing suits so I don't think it is a detergent issue. A few days later I checked the Ph and found that it was very low, about 7.1. I used spa up to increase the Ph to about 7.5ish. I've been checking the Ph for the last week and it has continued to drop since I raised it. Foaming has diminished quite a bit though, although it still happens moderately. I did a full set of tests with my Taylor K2006 kit today and this is what I found:

FC = 2.8

CC = 1.2

Ph = 7.2

TA = 90

CH = 230-300 (I have problems with this test. It seems to go towards purple for quite a few drops then eventually a very light blue. Starting color is really pink as well)

CYA = 140ish (I know this is super high. I was planning on dumping quite a bit of my water this weekend)

Tub size = 350 gallons

Water Temp = 101 deg F

So it lowering my CYA going to do it for me, or is something else amiss here? I plan on switching to the Nitro bleach method this time around. Why do they exclusively sell buffered chlorine if it is going to pump your CYA way up? I don't think I really add too much. My wife and I use the tub almost every night for about 1 hour and I usually add .25 - .5 ounces of Chlorine per use.

Thanks in advance!

[CountThis]

Sooo..... I'm having a new problem with my hot tub. About 1 week ago I started noticing that the hot tub started foaming significantly. Usually I use a de-foamer but this was just crazy! Lots of foam if I turned the jets on but then it would dissipate once they were off. My wife and I don't wash our bathing suits so I don't think it is a detergent issue. A few days later I checked the Ph and found that it was very low, about 7.1. I used spa up to increase the Ph to about 7.5ish. I've been checking the Ph for the last week and it has continued to drop since I raised it. Foaming has diminished quite a bit though, although it still happens moderately. I did a full set of tests with my Taylor K2006 kit today and this is what I found:

FC = 2.8

CC = 1.2

Ph = 7.2

TA = 90

CH = 230-300 (I have problems with this test. It seems to go towards purple for quite a few drops then eventually a very light blue. Starting color is really pink as well)

CYA = 140ish (I know this is super high. I was planning on dumping quite a bit of my water this weekend)

Tub size = 350 gallons

Water Temp = 101 deg F

So it lowering my CYA going to do it for me, or is something else amiss here? I plan on switching to the Nitro bleach method this time around. Why do they exclusively sell buffered chlorine if it is going to pump your CYA way up? I don't think I really add too much. My wife and I use the tub almost every night for about 1 hour and I usually add .25 - .5 ounces of Chlorine per use.

Thanks in advance!

O yeah, the water in the tub is only about 6 weeks old.

[CountThis]

O yeah, one last additon... I've never shocked the tub. I have a pack of renew but never used it.

[Nitro]

Sooo..... I'm having a new problem with my hot tub. About 1 week ago I started noticing that the hot tub started foaming significantly. Usually I use a de-foamer but this was just crazy! Lots of foam if I turned the jets on but then it would dissipate once they were off. My wife and I don't wash our bathing suits so I don't think it is a detergent issue. A few days later I checked the Ph and found that it was very low, about 7.1. I used spa up to increase the Ph to about 7.5ish. I've been checking the Ph for the last week and it has continued to drop since I raised it. Foaming has diminished quite a bit though, although it still happens moderately. I did a full set of tests with my Taylor K2006 kit today and this is what I found:

FC = 2.8

CC = 1.2

Ph = 7.2

TA = 90

CH = 230-300 (I have problems with this test. It seems to go towards purple for quite a few drops then eventually a very light blue. Starting color is really pink as well)

CYA = 140ish (I know this is super high. I was planning on dumping quite a bit of my water this weekend)

Tub size = 350 gallons

Water Temp = 101 deg F

So it lowering my CYA going to do it for me, or is something else amiss here? I plan on switching to the Nitro bleach method this time around. Why do they exclusively sell buffered chlorine if it is going to pump your CYA way up? I don't think I really add too much. My wife and I use the tub almost every night for about 1 hour and I usually add .25 - .5 ounces of Chlorine per use.

Thanks in advance!

Is this a new tub? If so, new tubs need their water changed after a month or so. Oil from the plastic plumbing leaches out etc.

Do you use anything else besides Dichlor, such as MPS? If you use anything that's acidic it will lower your pH/TA.

It's interesting that your pH is dropping that much with a TA of 90, but that's an easy fix by raising your TA to 100 or more using Baking Soda.

The CYA being high can cause problems, but I think the foaming is something else. i.e. Low pH, dirty filter, lotions, soaps, oils etc.

I would just drain the tub and start over. You can try a Spa Flush that will clean the pipes out, before draining. Make sure you remove the filter before using the flush, clean it real good and install it when you refill.

If you use the Dichlor/Bleach method, just use Dichlor for the first week or two to build up CYA to 20-30ppm, then switch to bleach. You need to have some CYA in the tub, or the bleach will be too strong.

Hope that helps you to get started. Let us know how it goes, or if you have more questions.

[CountThis]

No, this is a used tub. I'm the guy who was having the chlorine lvl problem and ended up doing a full decontamination in a previous post. Can I just empty 80% of the water like the pool calculator suggests to get the CYA down or should I empty the whole thing?

No, I have not used anything other than Dichlor. But I do use some of that gental spa stuff.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

What brand tub is this? Does it have a filter bypass valve at the bottom of the filter housing? I am asking because we have seen many people with issue with water and have found that the filter bypass is broken. What this by pass is a door that shuts when the tub is filtering on low, and opens on hgih allowing water to by pass the filter so it does not collapse. If it is broken, it is allowing water to bypass the filter even in a filtration cycle. Also, what is your filtration cycle set for, or is it a 24 hour circ pump?

If you are not filtering right, it would cause all the issues you describe. Shocking is also important with heavy use, be it with MPS or chlorine.

[CountThis]

What brand tub is this? Does it have a filter bypass valve at the bottom of the filter housing? I am asking because we have seen many people with issue with water and have found that the filter bypass is broken. What this by pass is a door that shuts when the tub is filtering on low, and opens on hgih allowing water to by pass the filter so it does not collapse. If it is broken, it is allowing water to bypass the filter even in a filtration cycle. Also, what is your filtration cycle set for, or is it a 24 hour circ pump?

If you are not filtering right, it would cause all the issues you describe. Shocking is also important with heavy use, be it with MPS or chlorine.

I have a 2004 Marquis 530Z Sierra hot tub. I'm not sure if I have a filter bypass valve. You can find a copy of the user manual with the equipment diagram on doc pg 25 at this link: http://www.marquisspas.com/pressroom/docum...omplete_EHT.pdf I did not see any indication of a filter bypass though. How would I know that I had one or that it was broken? I believe I have my filter cycle set to 2 times a day for 1 hour. It also filters for 1 hour after each use as well. One other observation that could honestly be in my head: It kind of feals/ looks like the water is being aerated alot more than it used to. As in when I turn off the jets there is a ton of little bubbles in the water which eventually disipate leaving the water clear looking. But untill they disipate the water is completly opaque. Like I said this could really just be my imagination. Maybe it has always been like that. My spa does not have any controls for adjusting the air to water ratio of the jets.

[Nitro]

No, this is a used tub. I'm the guy who was having the chlorine lvl problem and ended up doing a full decontamination in a previous post. Can I just empty 80% of the water like the pool calculator suggests to get the CYA down or should I empty the whole thing?

No, I have not used anything other than Dichlor. But I do use some of that gental spa stuff.

You can empty the water to lower your CYA, but if you continue to use Dichlor it will just raise back up. Have you considered the Dichlor/Bleach method?

It could be something such as unbalanced water, filter problem (as HHT mentioned). But it's also possible you're not using enough sanitizer (having a high CYA could make that more likely to happen). How did that Decon work out? Have you checked your CD lately?

I would first balance your water by raising your TA to 100-110, and aerate. That should raise your pH up to 7.8 ish. Then increase your filter cycle to 2 hours, 3 times a day. Check your CD by giving it a good shock to 12 ppm FC, wait 24 hr, and check FC again. If your FC is less than 6 ppm the next day, yoy still have excess demand. That's when you need to make a decision of whether you want to keep a high CYA (which will only get higher), or drain some water to lower it. Either way you'll need to shock. If the cloudiness goes away after shocking, you know it's the sanitation.

I'm curious to know what your CD is, and if shocking will solve the coudy water. Let us know what happens.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

First, 1 hour 2 times per day is not enough filtration for most people for a hot tub. If you use it once a week this may be fine. I will have to see what the filter system is in this tub. The bubbles you see when you turn the jets off that stay for a little while making the water look cloudy are usually because of the TDS build up in the tub. You water is "thick" with dissolved solids making it take longer for the bubbles to come to the surface.

I would empty the whole thing. You are not saving anything to keep a 1/4 or 1/3 of the dirty water. They do it on pools because of the shear amount of water there is in a pool.

How often is the tub used?

[CountThis]

Nitro, The decontamination went well. No longer had the issue of chlorine lasting only a few hours. I can easily not add chlorine for 2 days or so if we don't use the tub and be well above 1ppm once I go to add some. It looks like I am headed for a complete water change. I'll let you know the CD once I get the tub up and running again. (my wife's going to pitch a fit about the hot tub being out of comission again!)

Hillbilly, My wife and I use the hot tub almost every night. If you get a chance to check out the filter system I thank you in advance! If I up the filter cycles per day or length of each cycle and switch to the dichlor/ bleach method are my problems probably going to be a thing of the past?

Question for all: Why don't they (as in the product makers and every hot tub dealer I have ever talked to in person) tell you you're going to blow your CYA level way up using dichlor?

[chem geek]

Question for all: Why don't they (as in the product makers and every hot tub dealer I have ever talked to in person) tell you you're going to blow your CYA level way up using dichlor?

Answer: Because the chlorinated cyanurate (stabilized chlorine) manufacturers believe there is nothing wrong with high CYA levels in "real" pools and spas, or at least that's what they say. So they don't disclose basic chemical facts such as for every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Dichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 9 ppm.

By the way, in case it wasn't clear, the foaming had nothing to do with the CYA level. Higher CYA levels will make the chlorine less effective so it will kill pathogens more slowly and will oxidize bather waste more slowly. The main practical effect one will see is that after 2-3 months the water isn't as clean and you'll notice that a water change improves it significantly. With Dichlor-then-bleach, the water stays fresh longer. This most likely has to do with the more consistent rate of getting rid of bather waste; with high CYA such oxidation could take too long so some organics could build up.

Dichlor-then-bleach requires a little more care and diligence since you have to 1) be sure and start of using Dichlor since bleach alone is too strong until at least some CYA builds up, 2) the pH will tend to rise unless you get your TA lower and use 50 ppm Borates so if you don't handle this you can get scaling. So a big reason Dichlor-only is promoted is that it is very easy just to tell people to use ONE chemical to add after every soak. Also, with Dichlor being net acidic (after accounting for chlorine usage/consumption) it helps keep the pH stable in spite of aeration of the water so only a little baking soda needs to be added to maintain the TA level (so it's less likely to get scale with Dichlor-only because the pH won't be as likely to rise).

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Some of those types of filters have a bypass, some do not, they may have put a plug in. If you take your filter out, look in the bottom of the filter housing, there is a slot next to where the filter sets. That slot has a door or plug. If it does not, the water will bypass the filter and go right under it, the plug or door stops that from happening. This way if the filter is plugged, or a lot of water is going through such as on high speed, it can bypass the filter so it does not crush it or starve the pumps.

I hope this is a good definition, very hard to describe with words!

[CountThis]

Hillbilly, I looked down at the bottom of the filter houseing and there is the main hole which the filter screws into and then there are holes lower down at the base of the housing which I assume are the pass throughs you are talking about. While I can't tell if they are sucking down water while the filter is on low I can tell you that the center hole is sucking like mad!

Nitro, I checked my CD. I was only able to get my hands on the tub for 21 hours before my wife insisted she needed to get in it, so this is what I found:

Hour Zero: I added chlorine and immediatly checked the FC (which was 9) and the CC (which was about 1.75).

After 23 Hours I checked again and FC was 4.5 and the CC was still about 1.75. So CD is 50%.

I'm still having a crazy foaming problem though. Actually it has gotten way worse. And the cause I think is this stuff called "Enzyme" from Leisure Times. I had added some of their "Bright & Clear" and it said to add some enzyme a few days later to get rid of the ring created around the spa wall. While I did not see any ring I added some Enzyme anyways. Well fast forward 1 day and holly smokes is there alot of foam..... great... so I added some de-foamer.... stupid enzyme crap.

[Nitro]

I don't have experience with Leisure Time Enzyme, but sounds like it's supposed to break down oils, lotions etc. I dont know how well it works, if at all. There is a prodcut called Spa Klear that does work at getting rid of foam. It clumps oils, lotions, soaps together and deposits them on your filter. You just have to make sure you clean your filter a day or two after using it, or it it will all end up back in the tub. Could that be your problem with Enzyme?

However, you could add Spa Klear to clear it up. Then shock to get your CD down. But you'll still have high CYA. To me that's a waste of time and money. I would just drain the thing and start over. Go with the Dichlor/Bleach method to keep your CYA down (20-30). Make sure you use plenty of Chlorine to keep your CD down. You can also your MPS to help the Chlorine out. MPS works good as a shock once a week, or as needed. And if you have foam problems because of soaps, oils, lotions, use Spa Klear. Lastly, make sure your filter Cycle Time is at least 2 hours, 3 times per day, and that your filter is clean and working properly. That's all you really need to do to sanitize your tub, and your water should last for months without issues.

[tony]

I don't have experience with Leisure Time Enzyme, but sounds like it's supposed to break down oils, lotions etc. I dont know how well it works, if at all. There is a prodcut called Spa Klear that does work at getting rid of foam. It clumps oils, lotions, soaps together and deposits them on your filter. You just have to make sure you clean your filter a day or two after using it, or it it will all end up back in the tub. Could that be your problem with Enzyme?

However, you could add Spa Klear to clear it up. Then shock to get your CD down. But you'll still have high CYA. To me that's a waste of time and money. I would just drain the thing and start over. Go with the Dichlor/Bleach method to keep your CYA down (20-30). Make sure you use plenty of Chlorine to keep your CD down. You can also your MPS to help the Chlorine out. MPS works good as a shock once a week, or as needed. And if you have foam problems because of soaps, oils, lotions, use Spa Klear. Lastly, make sure your filter Cycle Time is at least 2 hours, 3 times per day, and that your filter is clean and working properly. That's all you really need to do to sanitize your tub, and your water should last for months without issues.

LeisureTime Enzyme will not cause foaming and should help, though I find it is better as a weekly maintenance product than a problem fixer. It does break down oils, soaps, etc. Bright and Clear is a clarifier that will clump particles too small for a filter to catch and thus help the filtering process. Overuse of a clarifier will contribute to foaming. Clairifers are, IMO, a better problem solver and not needed as a regular maintenance product. In seven years, I've used maybe a bottle and a half of Bright and Clear. I works great when your water has a slight haze that just won't go away.

I've found the best way to get rid of foam is to run all the jets on high with air applied. This should create a lot of foam. Scoop out the foam with a net, clean dust pan, anything that you have that will work. Do this until the foam no longer appears, then shock.