Mps And Dichlor?

[fms]

Can you use both dichlor and Mps in the same water? I am using nature 2 and have an ozonator. I have both chemicals and am only using Mps at present time with the dichlor just sitting around.

Thanks

[chem geek]

Yes, they can both be in the water at the same time. The Dichlor (chlorine) will be a faster disinfectant than the MPS though with N2 the silver ions make the MPS more effective than it otherwise would be, especially at high hot tub temperatures.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Can you use both dichlor and Mps in the same water? I am using nature 2 and have an ozonator. I have both chemicals and am only using Mps at present time with the dichlor just sitting around.

Thanks

Dichlor is needed to jump start the Nature 2 and should be used at least weekly to shock the tub. Their recomendations are to keep a .5 risdual od chlorine in the tub, so how much you use depends on spa use. You also use it if the spa has a funny oder of any sort or is cloudy at all. In the Nature 2 box there is a low chlorine recipe that somewhat explains the system for you.

[chem geek]

The owner's manual is here where you can see that in the low-chlorine recipe you use Dichlor for an initial "superoxidation" that "is required to burn off contaminants and activate cartridge." Then, you use MPS before and after each use to maintain an MPS level. "As needed" you shock with Dichlor. As noted, you can use Dichlor instead of MPS at any time.

[limulus]

We use an N2 cart and a copper ionizer along with dichlor. Per the N2 manual you can use dichlor as an alternative to MPS. I add 2tsp dichlor per person after each use. I shock about once every two weeks under light use and weekly if we use it a lot.

[JerimiahR]

We use an N2 cart and a copper ionizer along with dichlor. Per the N2 manual you can use dichlor as an alternative to MPS. I add 2tsp dichlor per person after each use. I shock about once every two weeks under light use and weekly if we use it a lot.

We have most of our customers use Dichlor & Nature 2. We used to have folks use MPS, Dichlor, and Nature 2.

However, we've found that most customers actually have better results (and save money) using only Nature 2 and Dichlor (assuming they've got Ozone).

We recommend customers add about 2 TBS of Dichlor (Spa Chlorine) each week to "Shock" the spa. The ozone then depletes this chlorine level. Then we have customers add about 1 tsp per person after they get out of the spa each time. This seems quite effective for our customers, and costs less money compared to using MPS each soak (since you have to add larger doses to get equal results).

Keep in mind these dosages are for the average "medium" sized spa. Larger or smaller spas may need larger or smaller dosages.

[cofive]

We have most of our customers use Dichlor & Nature 2. We used to have folks use MPS, Dichlor, and Nature 2.

However, we've found that most customers actually have better results (and save money) using only Nature 2 and Dichlor (assuming they've got Ozone).

We recommend customers add about 2 TBS of Dichlor (Spa Chlorine) each week to "Shock" the spa. The ozone then depletes this chlorine level. Then we have customers add about 1 tsp per person after they get out of the spa each time. This seems quite effective for our customers, and costs less money compared to using MPS each soak (since you have to add larger doses to get equal results).

Keep in mind these dosages are for the average "medium" sized spa. Larger or smaller spas may need larger or smaller dosages.

I was given similar advice for my Tiger River Bengal spa using the Hot Springs Ag+ (now using the Nature 2) with ozonator. Although the dealer recommended the use of Spaguard Enhanced Shock, 2 teaspoons before/after a soak and 2 tsp diclor weekly as a shock. I'm thinking the Enhanced Shock seems to satisfy two needs; one, chlorine to supplement N2 and, the shock component as the need for MPS as called for by the N2.

I do have a question after reading all this. How significant is the affect of Ozone on the chlorine? This was news to me and can explain why I'm having a hard time trying to maintain some chlorine residual.

If your advice to your customers is as you say, what do you recommend they test for and at what levels? It would seem that it may be diffucult to keep a chlorine residual.

[BlueSpa]

We recommend customers add about 2 TBS of Dichlor (Spa Chlorine) each week to "Shock" the spa. The ozone then depletes this chlorine level. Then we have customers add about 1 tsp per person after they get out of the spa each time. This seems quite effective for our customers, and costs less money compared to using MPS each soak (since you have to add larger doses to get equal results).

Keep in mind these dosages are for the average "medium" sized spa. Larger or smaller spas may need larger or smaller dosages.

I just purchased a Nature2 cartridge to try with the next refill but am wondering how one keeps the CYA levels in the 30ppm region when adding so much Dichlor?

Thought I'd read someone post here that once you've added about 6 TBS of Dichlor you're reaching the 30ppm CYA level. So after superoxidation of the N2 cartridge and a couple weeks of use with 2TBS shocking and daily Dichlor additions, it appears the CYA levels would require refilling, what am I missing??? (I'd even thought about superoxidizing the cartridge to the levels required in another container before putting in the spa).

[chem geek]

I just purchased a Nature2 cartridge to try with the next refill but am wondering how one keeps the CYA levels in the 30ppm region when adding so much Dichlor?

Thought I'd read someone post here that once you've added about 6 TBS of Dichlor you're reaching the 30ppm CYA level. So after superoxidation of the N2 cartridge and a couple weeks of use with 2TBS shocking and daily Dichlor additions, it appears the CYA levels would require refilling, what am I missing??? (I'd even thought about superoxidizing the cartridge to the levels required in another container before putting in the spa).

You either don't worry about the rising CYA level and continue to use Dichlor or you switch to unstabilized chlorine, usually 6% unscented bleach, to stop the rise in CYA but then need to manage the pH usually via having a lower TA level and possibly adding acid regularly. This latter approach may not be manageable if you have an ozonator since it can aerate the water a lot if its on most of the time and the aeration will tend to drive the pH up (though lowering the TA reduces that effect). If you don't watch your pH and it rises too much, then you can get scaling.

The chemical fact is that for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor this also increases CYA by 9 ppm. 6 tablespoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons is around 36 ppm FC cumulatively and 32 ppm CYA, but in larger or smaller tubs it will take more or less Dichlor to get that same FC and CYA result.

Richard

[BlueSpa]

You either don't worry about the rising CYA level and continue to use Dichlor or you switch to unstabilized chlorine, usually 6% unscented bleach, to stop the rise in CYA but then need to manage the pH usually via having a lower TA level and possibly adding acid regularly. This latter approach may not be manageable if you have an ozonator since it can aerate the water a lot if its on most of the time and the aeration will tend to drive the pH up (though lowering the TA reduces that effect). If you don't watch your pH and it rises too much, then you can get scaling.

The chemical fact is that for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor this also increases CYA by 9 ppm. 6 tablespoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons is around 36 ppm FC cumulatively and 32 ppm CYA, but in larger or smaller tubs it will take more or less Dichlor to get that same FC and CYA result.

Richard

With the ozonator and lots of aeration we do see the pH rise which seems to be moderated by the addition of unbuffered MPS and keeping the TA around 80. But I continue testing with the Taylor kit and checking the SI. Have used the CalHypo for some shocking but this does tend to raise our pH too as you had previously advised.

Any thoughts on putting the N2 cartridge in another container for the superoxidation step?? The N2 instructions say this step is required to "burn off contaminants and activate cartridge". Are we superoxidating to burn off contaminants in the spa or just for preparing the cartridge to release the metal ions?? Or can we use CalHypo for this superoxidation even though the instructions specify Dichlor?? (After a refill our water has virtually no Calcium so we end up adding Calcium anyway.)

We usually add some Dichlor to sanitize the fresh water but not to the superoxidation levels required for the cartridge. I guess I've been SLOWLY getting our CYA levels up to the 30ppm levels but from various posts it seems that most folks run them up fairly quickly after a refill. Other than stabilizing for sunlight exposure (we usually use the tub at night) I'm wondering if there's some reason I should be getting the CYA levels up faster?? I've tended to use more of the MPS which helps with the pH rise and saving the Cl for shocking and maintaining about a 1ppm Cl level.

Barb

[chem geek]

With the ozonator and lots of aeration we do see the pH rise which seems to be moderated by the addition of unbuffered MPS and keeping the TA around 80. But I continue testing with the Taylor kit and checking the SI. Have used the CalHypo for some shocking but this does tend to raise our pH too as you had previously advised.

Any thoughts on putting the N2 cartridge in another container for the superoxidation step?? The N2 instructions say this step is required to "burn off contaminants and activate cartridge". Are we superoxidating to burn off contaminants in the spa or just for preparing the cartridge to release the metal ions?? Or can we use CalHypo for this superoxidation even though the instructions specify Dichlor?? (After a refill our water has virtually no Calcium so we end up adding Calcium anyway.)

We usually add some Dichlor to sanitize the fresh water but not to the superoxidation levels required for the cartridge. I guess I've been SLOWLY getting our CYA levels up to the 30ppm levels but from various posts it seems that most folks run them up fairly quickly after a refill. Other than stabilizing for sunlight exposure (we usually use the tub at night) I'm wondering if there's some reason I should be getting the CYA levels up faster?? I've tended to use more of the MPS which helps with the pH rise and saving the Cl for shocking and maintaining about a 1ppm Cl level.

Barb

Barb,

Yes, unbuffered MPS is somewhat acidic so would help keep the pH from rising as quickly -- you are basically doing the same thing as adding some acid (plus getting the oxidizing benefit of MPS). Any hypochlorite source of chlorine (bleach, chlorinating liquid, Cal-Hypo, Lithium Hypochlorite) is going to have the same effect on pH though some inexpensive bleach brands will raise the pH more since they have more "excess lye". Clorox Regular has minimal excess lye so is close to pH neutral when accounting for chlorine consumption (that is, the pH rise is almost all from the outgassing of carbon dioxide from higher TA and aeration).

You'd have to check with Nature2 to see if the initial superoxidation does anything specifically to their N2 cartridge system. I suspect that the superoxidation is primarily for eliminating organics and ammonia in the initial fill water that might interfere with the metal ions and/or to ensure that a chlorine residual can be initially created, but their language does seem to imply that it does something directly to the cartridge to "activate cartridge" though I have no idea what that would be. As for using Cal-Hypo instead of Dichlor, it would certainly work to provide the needed higher FC and would increase your CH at the same time, but it will also initially raise the pH and the active chlorine concentration will be higher compared to using Dichlor. For example, if I start out with water at pH 7.5 and TA 100 and no CYA, then 1.5 tablespoons of Dichlor in 250 gallons (the N2 recommendation for superoxidation) would raise the FC to 12.5 ppm, the pH would drop to 7.39, and the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) concentration would be 1.9 ppm. If you were to use the equivalent amount of Cal-Hypo of about 3-1/2 teaspoons of 65% Cal-Hypo in 250 gallons, then the FC is raised the same, but the pH would rise to 7.82 and the active chlorine concentration would be 3.3 ppm, but you would also increase CH by 9 ppm. The difference in pH and active chlorine concentration does not appear to be large enough to be a problem, especially for a short time, but the amount of CH increase is so small that I don't think it's worth it since you want to have some initial CYA anyway. I'd just start out with Dichlor to get the CYA up and use a direct calcium chloride product to raise the CH if it's very low.

The main reason to use more Dichlor initially and get the CYA up faster would be to get to the lower active chlorine concentrations sooner. Your hot tub is exposed to the highest active chlorine levels in those first days and week of using chlorine. As noted above, the superoxidation produces an active chlorine concentration of 1.9 ppm. After you get your CYA up to 30 ppm, then an FC level of 4 ppm would result in an active chlorine concentration of around 0.06 ppm (a temperature dependent model that I'm not sure is right would have 2.3 ppm in the Dichlor case and 0.2 ppm in the post-CYA case). In other words, you are exposing your spa to 10-30 times the active chlorine concentration during that first superoxidation. It's a brief exposure, but if you don't get the CYA up faster then your spa is exposed to higher chlorine levels for a longer period of time and that will likely wear on the hot tub cover faster. A post from a hot tub professional on this forum ranked hot tub cover wear vs. type of sanitizer used and it correlated very well with expected sanitizer levels so higher average active chlorine concentration will reduce hot tub cover life. This is one reason why one never ever wants to use bleach-only and always wants to get some CYA into the water reasonably quickly by starting out with Dichlor.

Richard

[BlueSpa]

A post from a hot tub professional on this forum ranked hot tub cover wear vs. type of sanitizer used and it correlated very well with expected sanitizer levels so higher average active chlorine concentration will reduce hot tub cover life. This is one reason why one never ever wants to use bleach-only and always wants to get some CYA into the water reasonably quickly by starting out with Dichlor.

Thanks Richard! I'll go ahead and use the Dichlor to get the initial CYA levels up when we do our refill and will leave the cover open while superoxidating. The air temps will probably be warmer than our well water anyway!

I had seen that post about the use of sanitizers and cover damage in one of my searches regarding cover care. Seems I can spend hours searching this forum (of course saving a few hours for tubbing ) and always find lots of good information, but what I haven't found is if the underside of the cover should be treated with protectant, like the 303 aerospace stuff?? I treat the outside of the cover every 3 weeks when we change the filter, but didn't think I'd want this stuff potentially dripping into the spa so hadn't treated the underside.

If we ever get some warmer, dry weather should I be drying off and treating the UNDERSIDE of my cover??

Barb

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I would not use 303, although some people do. Cover componies sometimes suggest saddle soap, which I also would not to get into my spa water. My best investment along with many of my customers has been a simple "spa blanket". We use the inexspensive bubble wrap type ($15.00) and leave it big for the spa, hanging over the side. It is easy to flip open with the cover and we have had no issues. They last me about 1 1/2 to 2 years, then a new one. No damage from ozone or chemicals to our cover, plus keeps water from saturating the foam.

Good Luck!

[BlueSpa]

I would not use 303, although some people do. Cover componies sometimes suggest saddle soap, which I also would not to get into my spa water. My best investment along with many of my customers has been a simple "spa blanket". We use the inexspensive bubble wrap type ($15.00) and leave it big for the spa, hanging over the side. It is easy to flip open with the cover and we have had no issues. They last me about 1 1/2 to 2 years, then a new one. No damage from ozone or chemicals to our cover, plus keeps water from saturating the foam.

Good Luck!

I had been looking at those blankets but didn't know if they'd be too much hassle to remove each time and the blanket leash for the heavier one looked like it required punching small holes in the cover so I wasn't too keen on doing that just yet. The bubble blanket sounds like a great starting point!!

When you say "leave it big for the spa, hanging over the side" you actually have it hanging out one, or both sides of the spa, or just have it larger than the water surface so it sits up on the inside walls??

[fms]

I would not use 303, although some people do. Cover componies sometimes suggest saddle soap, which I also would not to get into my spa water. My best investment along with many of my customers has been a simple "spa blanket". We use the inexspensive bubble wrap type ($15.00) and leave it big for the spa, hanging over the side. It is easy to flip open with the cover and we have had no issues. They last me about 1 1/2 to 2 years, then a new one. No damage from ozone or chemicals to our cover, plus keeps water from saturating the foam.

Good Luck!

I had been looking at those blankets but didn't know if they'd be too much hassle to remove each time and the blanket leash for the heavier one looked like it required punching small holes in the cover so I wasn't too keen on doing that just yet. The bubble blanket sounds like a great starting point!!

When you say "leave it big for the spa, hanging over the side" you actually have it hanging out one, or both sides of the spa, or just have it larger than the water surface so it sits up on the inside walls??

In the past I have had the bubble blankets and now I have the foam blanket. I never cut either to fit the tubs. I have always draped them over the sides. At the present time my tub is 88" square and I have an 8' blanket. The center rest on the water and the rest extends approx. 2" past the edge of the tub. I have the blanket attached to the back of the outside of the tub so when I remove the cover the blanket just lays on top of it. It is so easy to roll the blanket back onto the tub when it time to close it up. When closed the entire water surface is blocked from the cover. I do not have to be concerned about the waterfall or filter area leaking steam and saturating the cover. The underside of the cover and the top of the blanket are always dry. The cover makes a tight seal to the top of the blanket. Sometimes when I remove the cover there seems to be a vacuum holding it down to the tub. There is definitely no leaking around the edge.

Others have said that it is best to cut the blanket to fit the tub but I really see no practical reason for this.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I also never cut. With waterfalls in many tubs, if the blanket sits down inside the tub it gets covered with water and ruins the reason for having. I do the same thing as FMS and have had great luck.

[BlueSpa]

Thanks Hillbilly and FMS! I'll give the bubble cover a try and leave it uncut and over the edges. (Wasn't sure if the cover would sit down on the bubble cover tightly enough with it extending out of the tub but should certainly keep it from moving around as the filtration cycles run).

[kube001]

We recommend customers add about 2 TBS of Dichlor (Spa Chlorine) each week to "Shock" the spa. The ozone then depletes this chlorine level. Then we have customers add about 1 tsp per person after they get out of the spa each time. This seems quite effective for our customers, and costs less money compared to using MPS each soak (since you have to add larger doses to get equal results).

Keep in mind these dosages are for the average "medium" sized spa. Larger or smaller spas may need larger or smaller dosages.

I just purchased a Nature2 cartridge to try with the next refill but am wondering how one keeps the CYA levels in the 30ppm region when adding so much Dichlor?

Thought I'd read someone post here that once you've added about 6 TBS of Dichlor you're reaching the 30ppm CYA level. So after superoxidation of the N2 cartridge and a couple weeks of use with 2TBS shocking and daily Dichlor additions, it appears the CYA levels would require refilling, what am I missing??? (I'd even thought about superoxidizing the cartridge to the levels required in another container before putting in the spa).

I use N2 with lithium based chlorine... no CYA as it is un-stablized form.

I also have an ozonator and use Micro Pure filters and water is perfect!

[chem geek]

I use N2 with lithium based chlorine... no CYA as it is un-stablized form.

I also have an ozonator and use Micro Pure filters and water is perfect!

I presume you start off using Dichlor for a short time to build up some CYA before switching to Lithium Hypochlorite, correct?