Bonding Grid Vs. Spa Mat

[fourrunner72]

Hello all,

I have been very indecisive on this topic.

All of you who have a spa on paver patio or concrete, did you decide to get the required spa mat or go with the bonding grid, or did you somehow avoid the requirement?

From what I have read the grid, or the mat, would be required around the tub (3ft wide) wherever there is paved access > 6 inches. (at least for my town)

Mats are expensive, and the copper grid is even more expensive.

I know it could be dangerous in an extreme situation, but I would feel safe without the mats around the spa.

Anyone know where to buy the cheapest mats that would pass inspection?

Or...does anyone know where/how to get the bonding grid at discounted price (leftover from a pool job or something)?

Opinions on this topic welcomed, as I am a newbie.

Thanks,

Jeff

[ps558]

Hello all,

I have been very indecisive on this topic.

All of you who have a spa on paver patio or concrete, did you decide to get the required spa mat or go with the bonding grid, or did you somehow avoid the requirement?

From what I have read the grid, or the mat, would be required around the tub (3ft wide) wherever there is paved access > 6 inches. (at least for my town)

Mats are expensive, and the copper grid is even more expensive.

I know it could be dangerous in an extreme situation, but I would feel safe without the mats around the spa.

Anyone know where to buy the cheapest mats that would pass inspection?

Or...does anyone know where/how to get the bonding grid at discounted price (leftover from a pool job or something)?

Opinions on this topic welcomed, as I am a newbie.

Thanks,

Jeff

What mats are you talking about? I have never heard this. Most spas the pumps, heater all have bonding wire that goes to the same lug were the bare ground wire get connected that runs back the the earth ground for the breaker panel.

Can you give more info were or who is telling you this? What good would a mat or bonding grid do with a spa with a wooden or plastic base. I would check with your local codes, if it not required by them then forget about it

[fourrunner72]

Hello all,

I have been very indecisive on this topic.

All of you who have a spa on paver patio or concrete, did you decide to get the required spa mat or go with the bonding grid, or did you somehow avoid the requirement?

From what I have read the grid, or the mat, would be required around the tub (3ft wide) wherever there is paved access > 6 inches. (at least for my town)

Mats are expensive, and the copper grid is even more expensive.

I know it could be dangerous in an extreme situation, but I would feel safe without the mats around the spa.

Anyone know where to buy the cheapest mats that would pass inspection?

Or...does anyone know where/how to get the bonding grid at discounted price (leftover from a pool job or something)?

Opinions on this topic welcomed, as I am a newbie.

Thanks,

Jeff

What mats are you talking about? I have never heard this. Most spas the pumps, heater all have bonding wire that goes to the same lug were the bare ground wire get connected that runs back the the earth ground for the breaker panel.

Can you give more info were or who is telling you this? What good would a mat or bonding grid do with a spa with a wooden or plastic base. I would check with your local codes, if it not required by them then forget about it

This is from my town:

"Bonding grid required under all paved surfaces around pool, to include concrete walkways and pavers. This requirement is for all pools and hot tubs."

It is also in the electrical code.

Using a nonconductive mat would avoid the requirement.

The concern is about voltage gradients (?) between the spa and the surrounding area. I think there was an accident where the pool got charged up and a lifeguard was injured because her metal chair was only bonded on one side.

I should just cut plywood pieces and see if that gets me around the inspector...

The concern is apparently related to stepping out of the pool onto pavers or concrete.

[ps558]

Hello all,

I have been very indecisive on this topic.

All of you who have a spa on paver patio or concrete, did you decide to get the required spa mat or go with the bonding grid, or did you somehow avoid the requirement?

From what I have read the grid, or the mat, would be required around the tub (3ft wide) wherever there is paved access > 6 inches. (at least for my town)

Mats are expensive, and the copper grid is even more expensive.

I know it could be dangerous in an extreme situation, but I would feel safe without the mats around the spa.

Anyone know where to buy the cheapest mats that would pass inspection?

Or...does anyone know where/how to get the bonding grid at discounted price (leftover from a pool job or something)?

Opinions on this topic welcomed, as I am a newbie.

Thanks,

Jeff

What mats are you talking about? I have never heard this. Most spas the pumps, heater all have bonding wire that goes to the same lug were the bare ground wire get connected that runs back the the earth ground for the breaker panel.

Can you give more info were or who is telling you this? What good would a mat or bonding grid do with a spa with a wooden or plastic base. I would check with your local codes, if it not required by them then forget about it

This is from my town:

"Bonding grid required under all paved surfaces around pool, to include concrete walkways and pavers. This requirement is for all pools and hot tubs."

It is also in the electrical code.

Using a nonconductive mat would avoid the requirement.

The concern is about voltage gradients (?) between the spa and the surrounding area. I think there was an accident where the pool got charged up and a lifeguard was injured because her metal chair was only bonded on one side.

I should just cut plywood pieces and see if that gets me around the inspector...

The concern is apparently related to stepping out of the pool onto pavers or concrete.

That's interesting. Somebody has to sell bulk rubber that can be custom cut to size. like these guys http://www.rubbermats.com/automat.html

[wylekioti]

I am currious, the bonding grid according to your code quote is "under" the pavement, so if you are placing the tub on exsisting concrete that is not an option.. right? I know there are commercial supply dealers with large selection of various rubber mat products. Wet wood is also a good conductor so doubt that wood would pass. And if you are getting out of the tub and water flows across whatever you are standing on to ground, you could get a shock so a 3' mat will not absolutely protect you. Guess I don't understand, if the tub is grounded, exposed parts of the tub are not conductive, the only way to recieve a shock would be from the water to the pad, but the water is grounded in the pump at least via motor shaft. The tub runs on AC current which can not "Build up" a shock hazard, only DC or static electricity can do that. The minimal voltages in a spa of DC used in the control system would not be a health threat anymore than handling a flashlight battery unless a huge amount of amperage could be stored up which would mean the spa is acting like a capacitor. So if somehow the DC form the contol could get to the water and it could "build up", maybe get a shock. Faulty underwater lighting would seem to be the best source. But that is why there is ground fault breaker to the tub. Maybe we should all have a big LED display Voltmeter mounted showing voltage in the water vs. ground so we know if it is safe to get in or out of the water? Am I crazy? I realize water shock hazard is real, but I dont understand how bonding grid or matting is going to make it Safe if there is a problem. I am currious.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

This is a law for commercial applications. I would ask the inspector why it is for private portable hot tubs that are all ready all grounded as stated. It is crazy! Good Luck.

[fourrunner72]

I am currious, the bonding grid according to your code quote is "under" the pavement, so if you are placing the tub on exsisting concrete that is not an option.. right? I know there are commercial supply dealers with large selection of various rubber mat products. Wet wood is also a good conductor so doubt that wood would pass. And if you are getting out of the tub and water flows across whatever you are standing on to ground, you could get a shock so a 3' mat will not absolutely protect you. Guess I don't understand, if the tub is grounded, exposed parts of the tub are not conductive, the only way to recieve a shock would be from the water to the pad, but the water is grounded in the pump at least via motor shaft. The tub runs on AC current which can not "Build up" a shock hazard, only DC or static electricity can do that. The minimal voltages in a spa of DC used in the control system would not be a health threat anymore than handling a flashlight battery unless a huge amount of amperage could be stored up which would mean the spa is acting like a capacitor. So if somehow the DC form the contol could get to the water and it could "build up", maybe get a shock. Faulty underwater lighting would seem to be the best source. But that is why there is ground fault breaker to the tub. Maybe we should all have a big LED display Voltmeter mounted showing voltage in the water vs. ground so we know if it is safe to get in or out of the water? Am I crazy? I realize water shock hazard is real, but I dont understand how bonding grid or matting is going to make it Safe if there is a problem. I am currious.

-----------------------------------

Your comment about the voltage in the water vs. voltage of the ground/pavers is exactly the concern/reason for the "national" electrical code change.

here is an article about what prompted it:

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02..._02f_herzig.htm

the bonding grid would be under the pavers, but everything metal above the pavers, including the spa, and mini-life guard stands (lol) would be bonded to it....it ensures the same voltage potential, so that if the ground gets charged up by some freak occurence, and the water gets charged up, you step out onto the same voltage i guess (i'm no expert)....same voltage, means nowhere for current to flow (?).

NJ seems to be up on the changes and our governer put out a letter stating the paved walkways around hot tubs were still to be taken care of in regards to this...

based on the lack of replies to this post, it seems the rest of the country is pretty lenient on it.

enjoy the article!

[fourrunner72]

This is a law for commercial applications. I would ask the inspector why it is for private portable hot tubs that are all ready all grounded as stated. It is crazy! Good Luck.

--------------

not according to this:

http://www.hopewelltwp.org/dca%20equipoten...ding%20grid.pdf

thanks for the well wishes...p.s. I noticed you were a Clearwater expert...when is Clearwater going to come out with more paneling options? My wife hated the gray or brown options and nixed my spa..lol...She wants mahogany...We could go with a Sundance Hawthorne....but has Sundance gotten past it's leak issues I read about? And the horsepower of their pumps are 40% that of Clearwater....Is 2hp enough?! Sorry, probably shouldn't have mixed topics...you can reply to me in private if you want...thanks, jeff

[Dnepr Dave]

It appears that all you have to do to meet the code is to put some wooden (non-conductive) duckboards around the spa. They would certainly look nicer than plywood.

Dave

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

This is a law for commercial applications. I would ask the inspector why it is for private portable hot tubs that are all ready all grounded as stated. It is crazy! Good Luck.

--------------

not according to this:

http://www.hopewelltwp.org/dca%20equipoten...ding%20grid.pdf

thanks for the well wishes...p.s. I noticed you were a Clearwater expert...when is Clearwater going to come out with more paneling options? My wife hated the gray or brown options and nixed my spa..lol...She wants mahogany...We could go with a Sundance Hawthorne....but has Sundance gotten past it's leak issues I read about? And the horsepower of their pumps are 40% that of Clearwater....Is 2hp enough?! Sorry, probably shouldn't have mixed topics...you can reply to me in private if you want...thanks, jeff

Clearwaters new RIM system cabinet can be painted any color. It is also very different looking than the previous endura cabinet or most other spa manufactures synthetic.

There are very few spas that still use Mahogany, my first tub, a Waters Edge had 1/2 inch thick Mahogany for the cabinet. I miss it. I did not mind staing it yearly at all for the beauty. In Clearwaters defense, the coastal cedar they use is nice, as is Arctic's. It can be stained with Penofin(brand name) in a mahogany color and it is pretty sharp!

Sundance is a nice tub also, I won't get into the pump issue, but ask any Clearwater owner about how great the therapy is. Last year I had the Pebble Beach for my personal tub, this year I have an Orlando. They both had their pros, each with a little different therapy. I love our Clearwater line. If I can help you further I will be glad to.