Difference In Clarifiers

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

There seems to be some discussion on clarifiers clogging filters. I am typing below a pro tip on the importance of clarifiers copied from my water chemistry training manual...

"In addition to a good sanitizer program, clarifiers should be used to help remove all contaminants. However, most clarifiers in the market are petroleum based; that is, they use an oil based product to remove small organic maaterials in the water. (these materials are not only from soaps and lotions, each person sweats a pint of sweat per 20 minute spa use. 2 people 1, 20 minute use 5 days a week = 10 pints of sweat! 40 pints in a month! and so on) When oil-based clarifiers combine with contaminants they form oily, sticky goo that clogs the filters and creates an unsightly scum on the waterline. This makes the owners job harder as it leads to more scubbing of the waterline and more work on the filter.

To make the job easier, a natural, non oil based clarifier should be used to effectivly reove oils and other contaminants from the water. Natural clarifiers use a patented process that coagulates and flocculates without clogging filters or leaving a scum line.

[tony]

There seems to be some discussion on clarifiers clogging filters. I am typing below a pro tip on the importance of clarifiers copied from my water chemistry training manual...

"In addition to a good sanitizer program, clarifiers should be used to help remove all contaminants. However, most clarifiers in the market are petroleum based; that is, they use an oil based product to remove small organic maaterials in the water. (these materials are not only from soaps and lotions, each person sweats a pint of sweat per 20 minute spa use. 2 people 1, 20 minute use 5 days a week = 10 pints of sweat! 40 pints in a month! and so on) When oil-based clarifiers combine with contaminants they form oily, sticky goo that clogs the filters and creates an unsightly scum on the waterline. This makes the owners job harder as it leads to more scubbing of the waterline and more work on the filter.

To make the job easier, a natural, non oil based clarifier should be used to effectivly reove oils and other contaminants from the water. Natural clarifiers use a patented process that coagulates and flocculates without clogging filters or leaving a scum line.

I find I do not need to use a clarifier on a regular basis. In my six years of ownership I have used slightly more than one 32 oz bottle of clarifier. Once in a while, my water will get a slight haze to it...not cloudy but just not crystal clear like it usually is...this is when 2 oz of clarifier works for me. Cloudy water generally needs a shock dose of sanitizer and extended filtering.

I do like to use an enzyme product on a regular basis. Enzymes will "eat" the oils and soaps, keep your filters clean and smells nice. Enzymes are good preventative maintenance products while clarifiers will fix a problem.

I believe the Sea Klear product is a combination of both...I have been using the Leisure Time products.

[Whoneedsavacation]

I have used both the Leisure Time clarifier and the Leslie's store brand one, without getting any gunk or goo, so YMMV. I don't use them regularly, just on an as-needed basis.

Note that sweat doesn't contain a lot of organics. You'll get some bacteria and skin oils coming off with it, but the sweat itself is mostly water and salts, so it's the first bit of sweat that carries most of the organic material, the rest will be relatively "pure".

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I have used both the Leisure Time clarifier and the Leslie's store brand one, without getting any gunk or goo, so YMMV. I don't use them regularly, just on an as-needed basis.

Note that sweat doesn't contain a lot of organics. You'll get some bacteria and skin oils coming off with it, but the sweat itself is mostly water and salts, so it's the first bit of sweat that carries most of the organic material, the rest will be relatively "pure".

Your body contains the most organics possible, it is the most dirty thing you put in your tub! dead skin, urea, fecal matter and on and on. When you sweat, your body releases all kinds of impurities and toxins with it (why saunas are great) which are going into your water. Sweat has a bad smell because of the little beasties in it are producing wastes. Salt water does not stink.

A typical paper filter picks up stuff down to 10 microns at best, as it gets older it lets larger particles pass. I like the idea of using a clarifier to collect these small particles, making them larger so they are filtered out, not put back into the water or blended into the mist we are breathing in, and on top of this it keeps the water clear and lasting longer before it starts getting that "thick" feeling. I like the enzyme products also, they do work will breaking up the gunk, but where does all that gunk go when broken up. If its big enough the filter traps it, if not it passes right through and is still in the water.

To each their own on what they find that works for them, I was just origionally replying to the post that said clarifiers gunk your filters. Not all do and as you stated, the ones you use didnt either...my origional response the the other post!

[Whoneedsavacation]

Well, I think we are mostly in violent agreement.

"Clean" sweat is odorless, the odor comes from bacteria growing in the moist environment on the skin, and yes, humans do deposit bacteria into water. If you take a very hot shower you come out sweaty but smelling like a rose. The quantity of sweat isn't so much what's relevant, it's the fact of the body being immersed in the water and "washing off" the bacteria and waste products. The first bit of sweat facilitates this, but the rest is just salt and water and maybe a few stray proteins. Showering before you get in won't reduce the amount of sweat, it will somewhat reduce the amount of contaminants you introduce, modulo any soap residue you have added to yourself. I generally don't bother, but if one is twitchy about such things, a shower is worthwhile.

My point in posting the clarifiers I have used was just to point out that there isn't only one choice, and it doesn't have to be labeled "natural" to work well and not cause "gunk".

[chem geek]

Table 4.1 on document page 62 (PDF page 85) of this WHO document shows that beyond water and salt (9000 ppm) in sweat and urine, the most significant components are urea and ammonia plus lesser amounts of amino acids, creatinine and other compounds. It is these nitrogen containing compounds (mostly urea and ammonia) that account for the incremental chlorine consumption attributable to bathers. I'm fairly certain that even the smelliest of bathers doesn't have enough volume of bacteria to appreciably lower the amount of chlorine -- it's the urea and ammonia that are primarily responsible for that. The slough off of skin mostly leads to particles that get trapped in the filter and would only affect chlorine demand if significantly accumulated.

[cplarsen]

Umm, there's no way for a filter to trap particles without becoming clogged.

Now, a natural clarifier may be easier to clean off the filter later than a oil based one, but it fills those little 10 micron holes just the same.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Umm, there's no way for a filter to trap particles without becoming clogged.

Now, a natural clarifier may be easier to clean off the filter later than a oil based one, but it fills those little 10 micron holes just the same.

Clogged to the point that it retricts the water because there is goo that is like vasoline is not good.

[chem geek]

A typical paper filter picks up stuff down to 10 microns at best, as it gets older it lets larger particles pass. I like the idea of using a clarifier to collect these small particles, making them larger so they are filtered out, not put back into the water or blended into the mist we are breathing in, and on top of this it keeps the water clear and lasting longer before it starts getting that "thick" feeling. I like the enzyme products also, they do work will breaking up the gunk, but where does all that gunk go when broken up. If its big enough the filter traps it, if not it passes right through and is still in the water.

As for what happens when enzymes catalyze (speed up) the oxidation of organic matter (from MPS, chlorine or dissolved oxygen), they are converted into gaseous compounds such as carbon dioxide or nitrogen and into smaller polar molecules that are soluble in water (acetic acid, acetonitrile, and chlorinated derivatives). Though the latter are still in the water, so long as they are soluble they are not usually a problem (think of most dissolved substances such as sugar and salt in water). In fact, MPS and chlorine don't typically fully oxidize most organic molecules -- especially with MPS it just makes these organics more soluble in water (chlorine more selectively reacts with compounds containing nitrogen). Ammonia and urea do get fully oxidized though the latter takes longer and possibly has more byproducts (including nitrate and more nitrogen trichloride).

Richard