hot_water Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I actually do respect a person having years of experience. But unfortunately in this particular case, your'e not citing anything that is objective or concrete. You're just saying the quality of one make is good and another is poor, and when asked exactly what is better, it comes down to "Ihave experience and you are a lowly consumer".. Ok fine. On the other hand, you turn the discussion personal by trivializing my conclusions. You have no idea what I did or what I know. It is not even relevant. My point is that you have to have some real information before you can proclaim something is either junk or high quality. What is the problem with that? Once again, have you ever even seem the innards of a Hydrospa Legend? I have seen the innards of all the major manufacturer's spas. I am not in the spa business. I do however have 29 years experience as a mechanical engineer. I like to think I know a bit about machinery. And, a spa isn't exactly the space shuttle, you know. You can reduce that to insignificance by characterizing me as having kicked tires for a few weeks. Ok, whatever. I think my point is made. Balboa is good stuff. CCA acrylic shells are good (I think they're a way better choice than ABS) GE is a good motor (it IS). The jets pretty much ALL come from two manufacturers. and on and on. Again, all I'm saying is that if you are going to say something is good or not good, in my lowly consumer opinion it needs to be backed up by what exactly is good or not good. There are many thousands of dollars between a Hydro and a Sundance or HotSprings. If they cost the same I personally would STILL choose the Hydro over the HotSprings, hands down, just because of (my opinion on) the full foam. I would probably also choose the Hydro over the Sundance, based on the total picture of quality and feature set, but it would be a much tougher call. In case of a tie, Costco full lifetime refund has some real weight, no? All that aside, look at this question logically. If you are a little spa manufacturer and you want to sell through Costco, part of the deal is that Costco will make you agree to take back Customer returns NO MATTER WHAT. Costco doesn't absorb the returns. Now, that being the case, are you going to put a poor quality tub in Costco and risk lots of returns? I don't think so, at least not if you have any business sense at all. You're going to put the best thing you can into Costco because otherwise you will buy back a lot of product. It's a pretty good strategy on Costco's part. Is it a guarantee of high quality? Nope. But neither is a fancy showroom and a slick sales guy on a commission. You're right about that... the sales pitches aren't very useful. They're a lot like some of the forum opinions on quality, come to think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 All that aside, look at this question logically. If you are a little spa manufacturer and you want to sell through Costco, part of the deal is that Costco will make you agree to take back Customer returns NO MATTER WHAT. Costco doesn't absorb the returns. Now, that being the case, are you going to put a poor quality tub in Costco and risk lots of returns? I don't think so, at least not if you have any business sense at all. You're going to put the best thing you can into Costco because otherwise you will buy back a lot of product. It's a pretty good strategy on Costco's part. Is it a guarantee of high quality? Nope. Saying you'd take a Hydro over a Hot Spring or Sundace if the prices was so illogical to me I just skipped ahead to this part of your post. Recent history saw Hydrospas send poor quality to Costco and partly because Costco had the return policy so many of those crappy spas went back that they went bankrupt. Keys Backyard sent thousands of low quality spas to big box retailers who ended up shipping enough back that they went belly up (then Infinity bobbled them up to then build spas for Costco through that Keys Texas plant and I'm waiting to see if there will be any change though I'm skeptical). I know there is this underlying thought that Costco sells quality and therefore these spas must be good but that logic doesn't hold and the results don't support it. Costco is looking for three things 1) low price, 2) you take it back under any circumstances, 3) enough bling so people think they're getting a full packaged spa. Quality doesn't make their top 3 requirements from what I see. Hydro and Keys wanted sales bad enough that they concentrated on #1 and #2 without making sure that #3 wouldn't be their downfall and I'm not so sure that Infinity will be any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I will back Spa Tech here also....... We have had several trainings by several different companies which include Balboa and Gecko. It was asked in the trainings about their systems that go into the mass merchant spas, problems with them ect. Both those companies said that they make a low shelf control system to meet the price points that need to be met by these manufactures. Value systems....lower quality components are contained in these systems. Infinity can not even purchase the higher end system to put in their tubs to support some of the compnents they are putting in, so they add this "nice" little jumper board. TO MEET THE PRICE POINT THEY HAVE TO CUT QUALITY SOMEWHERE. Thin acrylic is another thing, you cant tell now, but over time it will show. As with spa tech, after being in the field, working on different tubs and seeing how each is doing, we see and learn much more than a consumer. There is a reason they cost much less. If you are willing to take a chance then thats your choice. Sometimes you may luck out and have one with no issues. If it is really that easy to return to Costco, then thats great. I would like to see someone have the tub for a few years and try this and see what their experiences are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Again, personal attack rather than some reasonable discussion. I will stand by my comments on full foam construction. I have a good reason for that viewpoint. You don't seem to be willing to cite yours. BTW, Costco offered a Hotsprings model for a while. I do appreciate that you in particular offer lots of constructive tech advice in this forum.... I just disagree with your approach to this particular topic. I don't think I am going to convince you of anything, nor do i particularly want to. I am more interested in convincing consumers that might be reading this that they should try to make their decisions based on objective information and not rely on irrational Costco (or Home Depot, or Brand X) bashing. Please notice that I'm not commenting on the LaZboy or whatever it is, since I haven't researched that one. I still bet you have never actually laid eyes on a HydroSpa Legend. I would suggest that you might benefit from understanding Costco's business philosophy a little better. They really do try to offer good stuff. They also take care of their members. They even have a reputation for being a good employer. I like Costco because they are, in my view, able to to do well for themselves without screwing anyone. Classic "win-win". I don't hold the same opinion of all mass merchandisers. If someone else out there in forum-land were to decide to buy from Costco (based on some solid reasons, I hope) I might suggest that they take the difference between what they paid and what they might have paid at an expensive dealer and buy some Costco stock. Might just end up paying for the spa that way.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 I will stand by my comments on full foam construction. I have a good reason for that viewpoint. You don't seem to be willing to cite yours. My opinion is based on what I've seen. If you see spas that are 12, 15, 20 years old they are the full foam spas you seem unimpressed with and not the budget thermo pane types. We can talk all we want about what we like but the proof is in people's backyards. If you take 100 Hot Springs, 100 Sundance ... and 100 budget thermo pane spas and put them in people's yards in Michigan and Arizona and other parts in between and see how long they last you'll see the same thing. Quality rises to the occasion over time and the budget brand thermopane spas just don't last as long. Now that doesn't mean every one of them will end up in the landfill before year 10 but % wise it won't be close IMO and yes, if you're a TRUE DIYer then you can help keep brands like yours going and make your purchase work for you. You could argue that there isn't a problem because at $3k or $4k you may not be getting a quality product but you are getting value. That is something I can't totally disagree with; I'm not going to tell someone they're stupid for buying hamburger instead of buying a steak. I only take issue when someone thinks they saved $5k over what they could have gotten from Sundance, Hot Spring Marquis, Arctic, etc. I would suggest that you might benefit from understanding Costco's business philosophy a little better. They really do try to offer good stuff. They also take care of their members. They even have a reputation for being a good employer. I like Costco because they are, in my view, able to to do well for themselves without screwing anyone. Classic "win-win". I don't hold the same opinion of all mass merchandisers. If someone else out there in forum-land were to decide to buy from Costco (based on some solid reasons, I hope) I might suggest that they take the difference between what they paid and what they might have paid at an expensive dealer and buy some Costco stock. Might just end up paying for the spa that way.... I would suggest that I do understand the Costco business plan. The problem is Costco doesn't know spas, they just sell merchandise and while they know how to do that very well that's not at issue, the quality of the merchandise is what I'm talking about. They've sold many spa brands but when one supplier falls short they move on to another but hold to the same plan which works well in some areas but it doesn't involve assuring quality. I just wish that rather than switching around when the supplier fails to deliver quality spas that they look into the problem and switch to another supplier that can deliver the goods. The problem is that won't happen at the price point they want. They do well to insulate their customers with the return policy (returning it is a pain but its better than being stuck with it) but they'd be better by making sure the product was quality in the first place but were back to the fact that Costco doesn't know spas and price is the key agenda. Other than the spas they sell I like Costco as well and I've heard they are great to work for also but I'm not sure when I ever gave the impression I had an issue with Costco overall. I am not a Costco basher; I just wish that quality was a key component of their spas but that would make them sell a better and more expensive type spa and that isn't going to happen in their business model. It's like the Hyundai. There was a time when those were crap cars. Nowadays Hyundais aren't so bad. Costco just keeps selling budget spas hoping that the suppliers will turn it around like Hyundai did. The problem is so far all the spas they're selling still equate to the old Hyundais. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 HillBilly, my Balboa seems to work fine. I push the buttons and it turns stuff off and on for 17 months now. Do you know for a fact that my tub has one of the controllers you're talking about? Do you know which tubs in particular do? It might be useful to push that list out so that people considering a tub would know. I think that would be good useful information that a consumer could follow up an and ask about. I believe that my tub has a Balboa VS - not the top of the line, but has a good reputation and seems to be working fine. I agree that thin acrylic might give a problem. In my view, consumers should carefully look at this. My Legend has a nice thick shell. If I have in fact misjudged, I will get 100 percent of my money back, including sales tax. Or if ANYTHING happens that I don't like, for that matter. If a HotSpring or Sundance or whatever name brand spa shell cracks or blisters or delaminates, or just plain fails in ten years, will the buyer get a full refund? I have not returned a spa. I have returned other stuff. It's never a problem. Costco's policy is posted on the wall of their store. I did ask about returning something that I've had for about 7 years that I coudn't get parts for, and they said, "Yup, we'll take it back". I made a part for it and decided to keep it. Can't speak to Home Depot or Walmart price points. Costco has a good price for a couple reasons, as I've said. Very, very low markup is a huge part of it - and it's a big reason that ALL the stuff in their stores is cheap. You don't see many ads for Costco, do you? Think about it.... they don't pay for radio, TV or newspaper ads, no commissioned sales people, and they run a warehouse full of toilet paper and laundry detergent and other commodities that fly out of there rather than a dedicated store moving a few expensive spas per month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Spatech, I have no doubt that there are crummy spas out there. No issue with that comment at all. I also have no doubt that Costco has sold some of them. But not all spas sold by Costco are crummy. Seems to me that generalizations based on vague and imprecise notions of quality don't really mean much. Now, on the other hand, if you want to say something like, "That particular spa uses copper plated framus connectors and those corrode badly", well that's some real good information. A buyer could go and say, "damn... a copper plated framus connector, I better stay away from that one". Now that's would be useful. But I'm not getting that, and I didn't get it when I was shopping. Instead, I read that "Costco stuff is cheap junk and will fall apart" with no explanation as to what will fall apart or what exactly is better about the alleged high-quality spa. Sorry, but "trust me, the spas at Costco are crap" doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. That view may in fact prove to be right. But I can't determine anything from what is written (_no_objective_information). If you've seen a Legend, then I would be interested in hearing exactly what you like and don't like about it. At this point I've bought one, but I could upgrade, redesign or repair if we could point to something that was poor quality. I imagine that the guy that started this thread would like to hear some real information about the LaZboy he was looking at, rather than, "it's a price point spa I have never seen, but it must be junk". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Can't speak to Home Depot or Walmart price points. Costco has a good price for a couple reasons, as I've said. Very, very low markup is a huge part of it - and it's a big reason that ALL the stuff in their stores is cheap. You don't see many ads for Costco, do you? Think about it.... they don't pay for radio, TV or newspaper ads, no commissioned sales people, and they run a warehouse full of toilet paper and laundry detergent and other commodities that fly out of there rather than a dedicated store moving a few expensive spas per month. I can tell we have another person who will have to learn for himself. 17 months and no problems, I think that is the second oldest Hydro unit that has been on this board. I fixed a 14 year old Hot Springs last week. But it is a Legend and Hot Water is right, I have never seen a Legend other than those photos of the insides of about ten brands that is listed on this forom about 6 months back. That was enough for me to see it's equipment bay (but I have seen plenty of hydrospa units over the 8-10 years I have been around these very simple pieces of plumbing) And if you compare the equipment bay (which is where I work 99.9 percent of my repairs) to say, the equipment bay on an 8000 dollar D1.....and you don't see the difference, you must be blind. I work with a whole bunch of mechanical engineers and while some are great guys and good diyers, others...well I don't want to insult anyone. Lets just say they need us builders to make what they put on paper work. Good luck with your tub Hot Water stick around for a few years please and keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveofakind Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hot Water - absolutely agree 100% with all your posts here on this thread...... I went down this same road with each one of these guys when I purchased my even cheaper Infinity Sun Peak for $3k from Costco......I am very satified with my purchase at this point....but like these guys say: You & I are DIY'er & these tubs may very well work out for you & I...........time will tell........ Hillbilly, Spatech & Roger, as biased as they are, do offer constructive help with problematic spas.... But they really are opinionated about "low end big box store spas..... Sorry everyone, could not help but read every post on this thread......... Interesting how the conversation digresses from the original first post....... Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Roger, you're making my point for me better than I ever could. I'm not saying that the Legend is the greatest tub ever. I bought it based on an objective assessment and I'm satisfied. I use it as an example because I have first-hand experience with it, and I don't like to talk out of my derriere about things I haven't even seen. All you've said is that I must be blind if I can't see the quality in the spas you favor compared to the Hydro. Ok. That's a valid opinion, but it's just an opinion. You could be 110% correct. But no one will be able to judge the validity of your argument if that's all you can offer up. I guess we could wait 10 years and see how my Hydro does or how the LaZboy does... not really a very helpful approach, is it? I kinda think people don't really want to wait that long -- they're looking for some reasonable information to support near-term purchases, no? By the way, a D1, which has an abs shell AND full foam, is even lower on my list than a HotSprings. My reasons are: First - The full foam is a unquestionably a more difficult leak repair than an open spa. Second - ABS is a soft plastic with extremely poor mechanical properties, and is easily marred and stained. I've used a lot of abs. It's claim to fame is, it's one of the cheapest plastics there is. Many flavors of ABS also do not do well under UV exposure (sunlight). However, I will acknowledge that there are formulations of ABS that do better nowadays. Maybe D1 uses a better formulation - I do not know, it bears looking into if you like a D1. The only advantage ABS has in my book is, it's cheaper. Sadly, in my judgement, it looks cheaper. Third - I very strongly suspect that the D1 NEEDS the full foam for structural support because the ABS shell doesn't have sufficient stiffness on its own. Let me also qualify that by saying that is an opinion, but an educated one. I didn't verify that statement because I ruled out D1 before I needed to look into that. But if my supposition is right, we should know that foam is not a good structural material, you should not be using the foam as structural support. On the other hand, I believe CCA as a surface with fiberglass on the backside is an ideal shell material. It is stiffer, stronger, harder and to my eye, much better looking. Lots of your upper crust spas seem to agree with this. Those are my reasons. See how easy that was? Now, YOU don't have to agree, I don't even care if you agree. But I think I've given a shopper something to consider and maybe look into further before he lays down his benjamins. And if HE disagrees, well, that's fine, at least he goes in with eyes open and not trying to look through smoke and mirrors. BTW, I know lots of guys on drafting boards and shop floors that thought they knew more than the engineers. Some engineers aren't too good, it's true. Some doctors, lawyers, and United States Presidents aren't too good, either Some spa techs might not be too good. Personally I wouldn't get in an airliner if it was built by someone that thought he knew more than the engineers. He doesn't, and is arrogant to think he knows more than the team of engineers that worry about engineering 50 hours a week. In my world, people with good ideas are encouraged but they have to submit them to engineering for review. By the engineers. Who worry about a lot of details, second and third order effects and obscure behaviors that many folks might not be aware of at all. Inspectors are there to make sure that stuff is built like the drawings.... with all due respect, there are pretty obvious reasons for all that. But I wouldn't want to insult anyone.... As fiveofakind says, I really do appreciate a lot of what you offer people here. It's really good stuff. But in my opinion you are off the mark on this topic. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveofakind Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hot Water, Very well said........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Roger, you're making my point for me better than I ever could. I'm not saying that the Legend is the greatest tub ever. I bought it based on an objective assessment and I'm satisfied. I use it as an example because I have first-hand experience with it, and I don't like to talk out of my derriere about things I haven't even seen. All you've said is that I must be blind if I can't see the quality in the spas you favor compared to the Hydro. Ok. That's a valid opinion, but it's just an opinion. You could be 110% correct. But no one will be able to judge the validity of your argument if that's all you can offer up. I guess we could wait 10 years and see how my Hydro does or how the LaZboy does... not really a very helpful approach, is it? I kinda think people don't really want to wait that long -- they're looking for some reasonable information to support near-term purchases, no? By the way, a D1, which has an abs shell AND full foam, is even lower on my list than a HotSprings. My reasons are: First - The full foam is a unquestionably a more difficult leak repair than an open spa. Second - ABS is a soft plastic with extremely poor mechanical properties, and is easily marred and stained. I've used a lot of abs. It's claim to fame is, it's one of the cheapest plastics there is. Many flavors of ABS also do not do well under UV exposure (sunlight). However, I will acknowledge that there are formulations of ABS that do better nowadays. Maybe D1 uses a better formulation - I do not know, it bears looking into if you like a D1. The only advantage ABS has in my book is, it's cheaper. Sadly, in my judgement, it looks cheaper. Third - I very strongly suspect that the D1 NEEDS the full foam for structural support because the ABS shell doesn't have sufficient stiffness on its own. Let me also qualify that by saying that is an opinion, but an educated one. I didn't verify that statement because I ruled out D1 before I needed to look into that. But if my supposition is right, we should know that foam is not a good structural material, you should not be using the foam as structural support. On the other hand, I believe CCA as a surface with fiberglass on the backside is an ideal shell material. It is stiffer, stronger, harder and to my eye, much better looking. Lots of your upper crust spas seem to agree with this. Those are my reasons. See how easy that was? Now, YOU don't have to agree, I don't even care if you agree. But I think I've given a shopper something to consider and maybe look into further before he lays down his benjamins. And if HE disagrees, well, that's fine, at least he goes in with eyes open and not trying to look through smoke and mirrors. BTW, I know lots of guys on drafting boards and shop floors that thought they knew more than the engineers. Some engineers aren't too good, it's true. Some doctors, lawyers, and United States Presidents aren't too good, either Some spa techs might not be too good. Personally I wouldn't get in an airliner if it was built by someone that thought he knew more than the engineers. He doesn't, and is arrogant to think he knows more than the team of engineers that worry about engineering 50 hours a week. In my world, people with good ideas are encouraged but they have to submit them to engineering for review. By the engineers. Who worry about a lot of details, second and third order effects and obscure behaviors that many folks might not be aware of at all. Inspectors are there to make sure that stuff is built like the drawings.... with all due respect, there are pretty obvious reasons for all that. But I wouldn't want to insult anyone.... As fiveofakind says, I really do appreciate a lot of what you offer people here. It's really good stuff. But in my opinion you are off the mark on this topic. Peace. OK hot, on your first point regarding waiting ten years. Consumers don't have to do that!! There are several manufacturers out there and we have mentioned a bunch of them that have a proven record for longevity and reliability, so why wait. Hydrospa or Infinity are not one of them. Second point. And you ruled out D1 because it's warranty on the shell was lessor than the Hydro? Or the leaks they spring are so prevelent? Speaking of non valid points!!!! In this state your Hydrospa would cost triple or more to operate during the winter months that the D1, yes I have seen it. And FYI I have done, part time 31 repairs on hot tubs to date in 2008. Every single one was in the equipment bay, not in foam. It makes a great structural component and also makes a very energy effiecient tub. And it cost 13 times more to spray foam a shell the way D1 does it versus the way Hydro did it. No one has asked you to change your opinion, just don't ask for facts and then spin retoric yourself. Peace Third....50 hours a week...I wish, I need some time off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 ... Ok. That's a valid opinion, but it's just an opinion. You could be 110% correct. But no one will be able to judge the validity of your argument if that's all you can offer up nice way to discount an experinced poster's comments. Yea, it's all opinons, but some opinons are more valide than others. anyhow.... By the way, a D1, which has an abs shell AND full foam, is even lower on my list than a HotSprings. My reasons are: First - The full foam is a unquestionably a more difficult leak repair than an open spa. Hmmmm. That sounds like an opinion. One of the faults of your argument thru out this whole thread is that you've automaticly discounted all full foam spas on flawed information/opinon and then quickly continue to move on to validate your opinion of your own purchase. The fact is, - and it's backed up by empircal data,- that some of the most relaible tubs on the market are indeed full foam. Now, I don't want to open up the old chestnut of FF vs TP, you can, as a newbie to this forum research that on your own, but your base assumption of quality is wrong. Yup, there are good TP tubs out there, but to disallow FF is a flawed position to take and skews your entire argument. Anyhow, have fun with your tub, but take a step back and understand your postings are simple opinons based on your own experinces, and from a very limited data set, and it reflects poorly on you when you discount others for thier viewpoitns, when you yourself are even more guilty of what you accuse others of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 FYI, I am not biased due to the fact I sell a different tub (which happens not to be full foam, its high quality TP that has passed the CEC) it is based on experience. When we first opened the store we carried Infinity, since that had bought the molds from the manufacture we used to work for that went out of buisness, and we carried Keys Backyard. At the time these were 2 different companies. We took on these lines because we thought we would sell many tubs because of the price point. We were at the time unaware of the difference in the Gecko/Balboa systems, pumps and how they were made to lower specs. In less than a year, we dumped both lines and took on a quality tub line. We were losing money and had pissed off customers. ALL but 1 Keys backyard that we sold had to be worked on, 4 of them were non repairable, acrylic cracks. It was very difficult to get a new tub for the customer(s) and it cost the customer $$ because of freight and prorated warrenties (read them closely) It also took a substantial amount of time to get the tubs. Getting parts was a nightmare....wait,wait, wait....backorder etc. Every Infinity we sold had to be worked on. Every tub that came in was not finished, missing something......cabinets were crap, plumbing not finished underneath, ozone not their and so on. We also had to wait for months to get paid for our warrenty work. Thats it, we dumped the lines. Although we still do warrenty works for them, we have the customer pay us and they put in the paperwork to be payed back,(except the ones we sold to, we continue to back them although most of them are beyond warrenty now) now they get to wait and fight on the phone. If this is considered bias, so be it, but I am bias due to what we have seen. I think it is just what all of us are trying to say. Buyer beware.... Don't slam on us for trying to inform people, some of these people that are giving their statements/opinions dont even sell tubs. They just service them. They are most likly the best people to ask what tubs are good and which are not, they see it everyday and have for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 If this is considered bias, so be it, but I am bias due to what we have seen. I think it is just what all of us are trying to say. Buyer beware.... Don't slam on us for trying to inform people, some of these people that are giving their statements/opinions dont even sell tubs. They just service them. They are most likly the best people to ask what tubs are good and which are not, they see it everyday and have for many years. Sadly, your opinion is influenced by your experience. Just be glad that you didn't carry them for long and didn't sell too many that you have to try to keep in service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hi Roger, I never said a thing about warranty on the D1. You did. I don't even remember what their warranty is. My only comments about warranty in this thread have been with respect to the little bit I've gotten on the Hydro (from Infinity, and quite good) and the Costco full refund warranty. Both these are... hmmm.... facts. The reasons I don't like the D1 shell is clearly stated in my post - abs is a weaker plastic with a softer surface. It stains easier (is that why there's a row of tiles at the water line?). It is a fact that D1 has abs. It is a fact that abs has lesser mechanical properties. It is a fact that it has a softer surface than CCA acrylic. It is a fact that it is a less expensive material. It is a fact that "most" of the other manufacturers, biggies or cheapies, agree that CCA is a better choice. If you think all these facts are not important, that is your OPINION and I have no issue with it - honestly it doesn't matter to me what kind of spa you like. My opinion is that I bought something else. But that is not the point, you don't seem to be understanding my position here too well. The point is, if I assert that something isn't as good, I'll tell you EXACTLY my reasons for my opinion. Once again, for the umpteenth time.... you_don't_have_to_agree. I am not here to convice you of ANYTHING, it isn't important to me and I clearly couldn't succeed even if I wanted to. I'm just pointing out that if you want to say something isn't as good, it's helpful to state your reasoning so people can say "Oh yeah, that makes sense" or "What a bunch of baloney". You like abs and foam structures? Great, go write the check and enjoy the heck out of it. If YOU want a structure that supports 3000-plus pound of water in a flexible abs shell supported by expanded plastic foam, WONDERFUL, knock yourself out. I prefer other ways of doing things. At least you can make the judgement.... if I just said, "Don't get a D1 they are crap".... well, would that be as useful? But you guys do exactly that with lots of spas that you haven't ever seen. And then you tell someone that calls you on it to come back in ten years. Sheesh. Trigger, I'm not discounting anyone's opinion. My point is that Roger and others are discounting THEIR OWN comments because they don't give their reasons, or when they do, the reasons aren't something that can be checked out. A good example - "Costco spas are cheap junk. Get a (insert poster's favorite brand) for twice as much money and you'll be fine". Does that seem credible to you? This is the internet. No one knows anyone here from Adam. If you say "that Costco spa is junk" I don't know if it's really junk or if you're just selling Hotsprings. Yet some seem to get offended because I'm suggesting that no one should just accept their opinions at face value without a little backup info. As to the diffculty of leak repair on a full foam spa not being a fact... you're not serious are you? On an open spa, you find the leak and fix it. On a foam spa, there is an added little problem of having to dig through the foam. How can that not be more difficult? If you read my posts, you'll see that I believe serviceability is important and foam is harder to deal with. When I was looking at spas, that seemed intuitive to me when I saw HotSprings. But, I understand that people sometimes work out ways to make difficult things much easier. So I asked around. At a dealer that sold D1 and some open spas (I have forgetten the brand, didn't like them). The answer was, "Oh, we can repair them, It is a pain, though. The open ones are easier". If you're actually suggesting that FF is just as easy to repair as an open spa, well, ok, at least you've given your rationale. I don't buy it at all, but at least you've given it. . Again, though, you prove my point. If you think that leaks are easy to fix on a FF tub or that the benefits outweight the problems, I think that's wonderful. It's your money, not mine. But I've told you exactly why I hold my opinion. Heck of a lot more useful discourse than, "I wouldn't buy that Costco thing becasue it's a value line spa and sucks --oh by the way I never saw it and can't point to anything that's not good but I have a jillion years experience so get a HotSpring or D1". My final comment to you is that you really can't say that my "base assumption of quality is wrong". One (very good) definition of quality is that it is a measure of how well a product meets its requirements. Each consumer has his/her own set of requirements, they are not right or wrong. These are the selection criteria by which one decides to buy or not buy, in this case. These could include things like style, performance, energy efficiency, reputation, serviceability, engineering, dealer support, etc. Each of us will naturally weight the factors differently according to our own personal sense of priority. That is why some people drive Toyotas and some drive Hondas and some drive Chevrolets. Some like blondes and some like brunettes (some of us like both). You get to decide if you like FF construction. I don't really care, it's your money. But if the question is, what do you prefer, well, I am going to say, "I don't like FF and here is why". If the question is, what do you think about D1, well, I will say, "it is not what I liked and here is why". Now YOU get to say, "ok, I like his rationale" or "Nope, that's nonsense" or "I think I'll look into that". And you then get to decide if the D1 meets YOUR requirements. YOU however cannot say that MY "base assumptions of quality are wrong". You have no bloody idea what is important to me. I live in CA, it's warm here. I MIGHT have a different priority if I lived in the frozen north. The best any of us can do is state our rationale and give the reader due respect by letting him map the information against his personal selection criteria. It is a little presumptuous to assume that what is important to you is "right" and my "assumptions of quality" are wrong and I must be full of beans if I disagree. It also seems a little presumptuous to say "this thing is crap, and you should agree because I am SpaGod and you are just a consumer and I know best". I do not want to trash D1 of HotSpring, I'm sure they give much pleasure to their owners. Those brands were not my choice, though. I offer my comments only as an example of a rationale that is useful as back up an opinion. I'm not saying it's a good rationale for anyone else -- but it was my rationale. People should be able to review the merit of the argument and make their own decision, that's all. By the way I like redheads, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Trigger, I'm not discounting anyone's opinion. My point is that Roger and others are discounting THEIR OWN comments because they don't give their reasons, or when they do, the reasons aren't something that can be checked out. A good example - "Costco spas are cheap junk. Get a (insert poster's favorite brand) for twice as much money and you'll be fine". Does that seem credible to you? I couldn't find the post were someone said "Costco spas are cheap junk." If you say "that Costco spa is junk" I don't know if it's really junk or if you're just selling Hotsprings. Once again, I searched this thread. Who said that? Did they give you the impression they were selling hotsprings? Your posts are littered with statements that people are saying Costco sells junk! and the like, and to be honest, I don't see that being said in this thread. I do see folks making valid points about Coscto's price points, they're history of dealing with other tub makers, and where the quaility cuts are made. These folks are being polite and providing you with legitimate points, yet you take it that they are some phoney "Spa God" (your words) and you hear them saying "junk" when they are not. They saying you get what you pay for. You're taking that as being derogatory and as an attatck. As to the diffculty of leak repair on a full foam spa not being a fact... you're not serious are you? I said some of the most realibale hot tubs on the market are full foam. Your concerns of fixing a devasting leak buried in the foam on a quality hot tub are virtually a non issue. If I were to take an educated look at hot tub problems, I'd be much more concerend with pumps, heaters and controls. My final comment to you is that you really can't say that my "base assumption of quality is wrong". One (very good) definition of quality is that it is a measure of how well a product meets its requirements. Each consumer has his/her own set of requirements, they are not right or wrong. Yes they are. If you make false assumptions about the structual intgrity of a tub then your conclusions will not be accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiveofakind Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hot Water.....I wouldnt waste another word on these guys......your position is well taken...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Hi Roger, I never said a thing about warranty on the D1. You did. I don't even remember what their warranty is. My only comments about warranty in this thread have been with respect to the little bit I've gotten on the Hydro (from Infinity, and quite good) and the Costco full refund warranty. Both these are... hmmm.... facts. The reasons I don't like the D1 shell is clearly stated in my post - abs is a weaker plastic with a softer surface. It stains easier (is that why there's a row of tiles at the water line?). It is a fact that D1 has abs. It is a fact that abs has lesser mechanical properties. It is a fact that it has a softer surface than CCA acrylic. It is a fact that it is a less expensive material. It is a fact that "most" of the other manufacturers, biggies or cheapies, agree that CCA is a better choice. If you think all these facts are not important, that is your OPINION and I have no issue with it - honestly it doesn't matter to me what kind of spa you like. My opinion is that I bought something else. But that is not the point, you don't seem to be understanding my position here too well. The point is, if I assert that something isn't as good, I'll tell you EXACTLY my reasons for my opinion. Once again, for the umpteenth time.... you_don't_have_to_agree. I am not here to convice you of ANYTHING, it isn't important to me and I clearly couldn't succeed even if I wanted to. I'm just pointing out that if you want to say something isn't as good, it's helpful to state your reasoning so people can say "Oh yeah, that makes sense" or "What a bunch of baloney". You like abs and foam structures? Great, go write the check and enjoy the heck out of it. If YOU want a structure that supports 3000-plus pound of water in a flexible abs shell supported by expanded plastic foam, WONDERFUL, knock yourself out. I prefer other ways of doing things. At least you can make the judgement.... if I just said, "Don't get a D1 they are crap".... well, would that be as useful? But you guys do exactly that with lots of spas that you haven't ever seen. And then you tell someone that calls you on it to come back in ten years. Sheesh. Trigger, I'm not discounting anyone's opinion. My point is that Roger and others are discounting THEIR OWN comments because they don't give their reasons, or when they do, the reasons aren't something that can be checked out. A good example - "Costco spas are cheap junk. Get a (insert poster's favorite brand) for twice as much money and you'll be fine". Does that seem credible to you? This is the internet. No one knows anyone here from Adam. If you say "that Costco spa is junk" I don't know if it's really junk or if you're just selling Hotsprings. Yet some seem to get offended because I'm suggesting that no one should just accept their opinions at face value without a little backup info. As to the diffculty of leak repair on a full foam spa not being a fact... you're not serious are you? On an open spa, you find the leak and fix it. On a foam spa, there is an added little problem of having to dig through the foam. How can that not be more difficult? If you read my posts, you'll see that I believe serviceability is important and foam is harder to deal with. When I was looking at spas, that seemed intuitive to me when I saw HotSprings. But, I understand that people sometimes work out ways to make difficult things much easier. So I asked around. At a dealer that sold D1 and some open spas (I have forgetten the brand, didn't like them). The answer was, "Oh, we can repair them, It is a pain, though. The open ones are easier". If you're actually suggesting that FF is just as easy to repair as an open spa, well, ok, at least you've given your rationale. I don't buy it at all, but at least you've given it. . Again, though, you prove my point. If you think that leaks are easy to fix on a FF tub or that the benefits outweight the problems, I think that's wonderful. It's your money, not mine. But I've told you exactly why I hold my opinion. Heck of a lot more useful discourse than, "I wouldn't buy that Costco thing becasue it's a value line spa and sucks --oh by the way I never saw it and can't point to anything that's not good but I have a jillion years experience so get a HotSpring or D1". My final comment to you is that you really can't say that my "base assumption of quality is wrong". One (very good) definition of quality is that it is a measure of how well a product meets its requirements. Each consumer has his/her own set of requirements, they are not right or wrong. These are the selection criteria by which one decides to buy or not buy, in this case. These could include things like style, performance, energy efficiency, reputation, serviceability, engineering, dealer support, etc. Each of us will naturally weight the factors differently according to our own personal sense of priority. That is why some people drive Toyotas and some drive Hondas and some drive Chevrolets. Some like blondes and some like brunettes (some of us like both). You get to decide if you like FF construction. I don't really care, it's your money. But if the question is, what do you prefer, well, I am going to say, "I don't like FF and here is why". If the question is, what do you think about D1, well, I will say, "it is not what I liked and here is why". Now YOU get to say, "ok, I like his rationale" or "Nope, that's nonsense" or "I think I'll look into that". And you then get to decide if the D1 meets YOUR requirements. YOU however cannot say that MY "base assumptions of quality are wrong". You have no bloody idea what is important to me. I live in CA, it's warm here. I MIGHT have a different priority if I lived in the frozen north. The best any of us can do is state our rationale and give the reader due respect by letting him map the information against his personal selection criteria. It is a little presumptuous to assume that what is important to you is "right" and my "assumptions of quality" are wrong and I must be full of beans if I disagree. It also seems a little presumptuous to say "this thing is crap, and you should agree because I am SpaGod and you are just a consumer and I know best". I do not want to trash D1 of HotSpring, I'm sure they give much pleasure to their owners. Those brands were not my choice, though. I offer my comments only as an example of a rationale that is useful as back up an opinion. I'm not saying it's a good rationale for anyone else -- but it was my rationale. People should be able to review the merit of the argument and make their own decision, that's all. By the way I like redheads, too. I was going to try and hit this one point at a time to meet Hot's points as to why the price point tubs are built cheaper but really what's the point. It has been hashed over hundreds of times in previous threads regarding the lessor controls, motors, PVC, glue, thinner fiberglass, 2x2 untreated structure, thin ABS bottom pan, mophidite plumbing layout and the like but again I would just like to say one thing. The warranty on the D1 shell and structure, is it better than the warranty on the Hydro or Infinity shell and structure. Before you start spewwing inferiority maybe you should read them both. The ABS that D1 uses may not be YOUR favorite but it has several benifits over Acrylic and is equal to any of the higher end tubs in dependability and longevity that use either Acrylic or ABS as the vessel surface. And you are correct that it's strenth may not be equal to acrylic. But I bet your one of those guys that also thinks a metal wall stud is stronger than a wood wall stud. But your an engineer so you should be able to do the calculations. So before you speculate, which is not like an engineer to do, I am assuming you took the exact ABS that D1 uses and compared it to the exact acrylic that Hydrospa used and the Hydrospa acrylic came out stronger? Or are you just assuming based on the books that ABS is weaker than Acrylic? Keep in mind that this is exactly what you are accusing us of doing...speculating. I eagerly await your response. Shorten them up a bit though I got alot to do and can't type real good. One question at a time and I would be more than happy to spar.....er I mean answer any question you have comparing the 2 brands as far as controls, motors, plumbing layout, energy effieciency, longevity. Of course my answers will be based on my experience and we will assume your experience will be part of your rebuttal. Or...if I tell you why the control board in your Hydro, the Balboa VS is not as good or won't last as long as the control that D1 uses will you still argue that I don't know what I am talking about? Oh and I looked back to and didn't see the mention of the Costco spas are junk. But I did see you telling us they were just as good as the 8 grand tubs so I guess the burden of proof would be on your shoulders. But I would research both D1 and hydrospa a bit more before I compared those to on reliability and longevity. But maybe those two factors aren't important to you?? Do this for me, and I hate car analogys. Call your insurance agent and ask them how much it cost to insure a base Hyundai/Kia sedan and a base Honda/Toyota sedan, Then price the two out and then tell me why the Honda is cheaper to insure and cost more to purchase. Then ask your local mechanic how many miles they usualy see on a Hyundia/Kia before they are no longer cost effective to repair. And do the same with the Honda/Toyota. Your an engineer this should be easy. Your base assumption of quality is WRONG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 I've made my points, I think I've said it all a couple of different ways. There's little point in saying it yet again. Some readers will appreciate your position, and maybe one or two will see mine. I'll be in my cheap Costco Hydrospa Legend, lamenting its abysmal quality and hoping it doesn't explode, at least until after I get out. Thanks for the fun (seriously). You're good guys. _Hot PS - Short enough for ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 I've made my points, I think I've said it all a couple of different ways. There's little point in saying it yet again. Some readers will appreciate your position, and maybe one or two will see mine. I'll be in my cheap Costco Hydrospa Legend, lamenting its abysmal quality and hoping it doesn't explode, at least until after I get out. Thanks for the fun (seriously). You're good guys. _Hot PS - Short enough for ya? Much better. You do seem like a logical guy. To bad your in that good forsaken state (kidding) P.S. it won't fall apart........yet. Out of curiosity, what kind if any problems have you had with your tub in the last 17 months? My last tub was a 4000 dollar Great Lakes that went 5 years before one fitting started to leak and the ball bearings fell out of one big jet. Then I sold it a little over a year ago and it has worked trouble free to the new owner through my 1 year warranty.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Only problem I've had was a check valve that leaked when the thing was new. Otherwise, no problems. Yeah, it's really tough living in the San Francisco Bay Area... dirty work but someone has to do it. Good weekend, _Hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Only problem I've had was a check valve that leaked when the thing was new. Otherwise, no problems. Yeah, it's really tough living in the San Francisco Bay Area... dirty work but someone has to do it. Good weekend, _Hot Check valve???? Between air injectors and manifold? It's a little quieter here in Moose Lake Minnesota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot_water Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Only problem I've had was a check valve that leaked when the thing was new. Otherwise, no problems. Yeah, it's really tough living in the San Francisco Bay Area... dirty work but someone has to do it. Good weekend, _Hot Check valve???? Between air injectors and manifold? It's a little quieter here in Moose Lake Minnesota. Can't say. I was at work when the tech came, repair order said "chk valve leak". No more water on the deck since, that was all I needed to know. There's many nice places to live.... we're lucky to be in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 I've made my points, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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