Chemical Pad To Replace Your Normal Chemical Use

[Dennnis]

"aahNatural"

THE NON-TOXIC HOT TUB MAINTENANCE SOLUTION?

OK Has anyone looked into this product or using it?

It is some kind of bag full of chemicals that you put at the bottom of your spa and then you will not need to add any other chemicals for a year!

Yea I know someone also wants to sell me a bridge or some water front property that's a few feet under the water, but I just want to find out if this works.

The non-toxic hot tub maintenance solution. Includes: ahhnatural pad, ancient sea salt, Ahh Up (sodium bicarbonate), Ahh Down (vitamin C) and installation instructions Cost is $239.00

The cost I think is more than what I pay for the normal years in chemicals from my local spa supplier.

I am going to pick up some shock today and I plan to ask if they sell this or if they know anything about it.

[chem geek]

They talk about how it works on this link. They talk about two processes and I comment on each:

First, a crushed silica-based mineral, formed in areas of the earth with high volcanic activity, removes organic-based contaminants, including the ammonia compounds found in perspiration. The volcanic minerals absorb contaminants by capturing them in the millions of tiny pores found within its crystalline structure. This process serves to limit odor-producing compounds and keep spa water clear.

This is similar to using a high-quality filter such as a combination of DE and carbon block (activated charcoal). Note that it will probably not only remove ammonia, but would likely remove chlorine and combined chlorine products so this product would likely be incompatible with regular sanitizers. Just as a home water filter can remove many organic compounds, so this could as well, in theory, though just having it sitting on the bottom isn't going to do a very good job of filtering. It would have been much better to have this in-line in the filtration system. Perhaps it is supposed to be placed over the drain in the spa so water circulates through it, but I don't know.

They say that you must shower off before entering the spa so as not to introduce sunscreen or cosmetics.

Second, a proprietary dual-element based system works kill potentially harmful bacteria and prevent scale accumulation that can harm spa components. These naturally-occurring elements work together to limit bacteria by creating a miniscule shift in an electronic charge called oxidation/reduction potential (ORP). The shift controls microorganism growth in three ways: 1) by disrupting biological processes and causing cellular damage to the microorganisms, 2) by direct contact with bacteria, and 3) by the formation of oxidizing agents called hydroxyl radicals and hydrogen peroxide, both of which interfere with a microorganism's ability to function.

This Fact Sheet gives more details about this. It mentions using Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and ancient sea salts (probably magnesium, calcium, sodium, sulftate, chloride). They talk about supplementing with adding hydrogen peroxide for weekly shocking. They refer to "chemical reactions between a unique combination of minerals", but they do not specify those minerals. It is possible that these minerals are copper and silver or that they have the equivalent of a small "battery" cell since they describe a redox reaction and electric field (perhaps using carbon-zinc). However, any small electric field of this sort isn't going to have any significant effect nor "emit hydrogen peroxide and nascent oxygen" as they describe. This is junk science and you can read more about it here and a specific sub-link here though this specific product hasn't made it to this infamous list (yet).

Essentially, the people who founded this company had a background in water filtration which does produce rather clean water, but in order to use their system you have to not use any sanitizer since their system would remove it (just like most home water filters do). So they were then left with how to sanitize the water so they use minerals for that but are not specific about which ones are used. IF they are using copper and silver, then this isn't much different than using Nature2 for that purpose. The problem that is not addressed is fast-acting sanitation. There is nothing in their system that would kill bacteria quickly in a seconds to a few minutes to prevent pathogen transmission from person-to-person.

Also, with the amount of ammonia/urea typically produced from hot tub bathers, this system has to absorb a lot and would need frequent replacement or recharging (I didn't see how they recharge their system or whether you have to replace it -- my guess is replacement just like a water filter).

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

"aahNatural"

THE NON-TOXIC HOT TUB MAINTENANCE SOLUTION?

OK Has anyone looked into this product or using it?

It is some kind of bag full of chemicals that you put at the bottom of your spa and then you will not need to add any other chemicals for a year!

Yea I know someone also wants to sell me a bridge or some water front property that's a few feet under the water, but I just want to find out if this works.

The non-toxic hot tub maintenance solution. Includes: ahhnatural pad, ancient sea salt, Ahh Up (sodium bicarbonate), Ahh Down (vitamin C) and installation instructions Cost is $239.00

The cost I think is more than what I pay for the normal years in chemicals from my local spa supplier.

I am going to pick up some shock today and I plan to ask if they sell this or if they know anything about it.

Do they tell you to still do water changes or do you keep the water in for a year? Without water changes I would think your TDS would go sky high. As Chem Geek says, I wouldnt trust it to kills the germs quickly enough to prevent someone from getting sick. Sounds skecthy to me, to each their own.

[chem geek]

This link says you must replace the water at least 3 times a year, so that's at least once every 4 months. The main organics that are introduced into the spa are urea and ammonia from sweat, especially if you shower thoroughly as they recommend before entering the spa. These are absorbed in their filter so there shouldn't be much of a buildup of TDS in the water though one would need to clear their filter on a regular basis (I couldn't find any info on its capacity or required frequency of cleaning/recharging/replacing). My main concern is the lack of fast-acting sanitation and the unknown slow-acting sanitation since they aren't specific about that (i.e. what minerals are used at what quantities -- if it's silver, then that's OK for slow-acting killing of pathogens, but if it's just magensium or zinc or something like that then this is useless).

Richard

[tony]

Do they tell you to still do water changes or do you keep the water in for a year? Without water changes I would think your TDS would go sky high. As Chem Geek says, I wouldnt trust it to kills the germs quickly enough to prevent someone from getting sick. Sounds skecthy to me, to each their own.

Believe it or not, with some enzyme systems your water will last up to a year. TDS is much less of an issue with enzymes. Though some users get by without adding chlorine or bromine, a low residual is required in the same way Nature2 or the Frog is used. I have been tempted to try Eco One or The Natural, the two most popular enzyme systems. I don't like the fact that you must rinse your filters weekly and that the pH likes to stay up around 8.2. They also don't come cheap.

[chem geek]

Believe it or not, with some enzyme systems your water will last up to a year. TDS is much less of an issue with enzymes. Though some users get by without adding chlorine or bromine, a low residual is required in the same way Nature2 or the Frog is used. I have been tempted to try Eco One or The Natural, the two most popular enzyme systems. I don't like the fact that you must rinse your filters weekly and that the pH likes to stay up around 8.2. They also don't come cheap.

ecoOne and The Natural and other enzyme products just make oxidation go faster -- enzymes are catalysts. You still need an oxidizer to do the work. If chlorine is present, then it will likely get used up first so it will probably be very hard to maintain a residual given the high demand in a spa from urea/ammonia from bathers. If MPS is present and used, then it would oxidize these compounds first before chlorine. If neither are present, then oxygen in the water can oxidize them as can an ozonator, but there won't be any chlorine residual in this case.

This link to ecoOne shows that they use "GLB Sanitizing Shock" which I believe is just this product which is Dichlor. The recommended dose of 1-2 teaspoons is 2-4 ppm FC in 350 gallons so not particularly "low" except that it will likely get used up oxidizing urea/ammonia so none will be left to kill bacteria.

So I don't see how one could keep a low chlorine or bromine residual when using an enzyme product. It can be seen as helping actual oxidizers to oxidize organics faster, but you still need an oxidizer to do the work. Perhaps in combination with an ozone system it will help keep water clear better, but without an ozonator I don't see how the 1-2 teaspoons after a soak will be enough to have the spa be sanitary.

If you have to rinse filters weekly, then it sounds like they also have a clarifier product in their system -- perhaps this is the filterOne cartridge filter cleanser.

Also, as for how long the water can go between doing a drain/refill, I suspect that the main reason for the 3 month rule (depending on bather load) with regular sanitation using chlorine was due to using Dichlor-only and its associated CYA buildup since that would just lead to more and more problems with the chlorine being less effective for disinfection and most importantly less effective for oxidizing ammonia/urea so monochloramine would build up. It was possible that algae could develop as well turning the water dull and cloudy. So by using Dichlor initially and then switching to bleach, one no longer has these problems and it may be possible to go longer than 3 months without changing the water, though I'm not recommending that yet until we see how things go. The use of 4 ppm FC per day of bleach will add around 200 ppm salt to the water per month (including the 100 ppm salt that comes from using any source of chlorine), but this should not be a problem even after 6 months or more. If one takes a shower before using the tub and makes sure their swimsuits are thoroughly rinsed, then the amount of other organics introduced into the tub will be minimized.

Richard

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Do they tell you to still do water changes or do you keep the water in for a year? Without water changes I would think your TDS would go sky high. As Chem Geek says, I wouldnt trust it to kills the germs quickly enough to prevent someone from getting sick. Sounds skecthy to me, to each their own.

Believe it or not, with some enzyme systems your water will last up to a year. TDS is much less of an issue with enzymes. Though some users get by without adding chlorine or bromine, a low residual is required in the same way Nature2 or the Frog is used. I have been tempted to try Eco One or The Natural, the two most popular enzyme systems. I don't like the fact that you must rinse your filters weekly and that the pH likes to stay up around 8.2. They also don't come cheap.

We tried ECO 1 in our personal tub(Itry all before we sell it to customers)and did not have good luck. The tub was cloudy and smelled bad although I followed directions to a T. Tried calling and writing the company to see what I did wrong and never heard back.

[drewskie]

Believe it or not, with some enzyme systems your water will last up to a year. TDS is much less of an issue with enzymes. Though some users get by without adding chlorine or bromine, a low residual is required in the same way Nature2 or the Frog is used. I have been tempted to try Eco One or The Natural, the two most popular enzyme systems. I don't like the fact that you must rinse your filters weekly and that the pH likes to stay up around 8.2. They also don't come cheap.

ecoOne and The Natural and other enzyme products just make oxidation go faster -- enzymes are catalysts. You still need an oxidizer to do the work. If chlorine is present, then it will likely get used up first so it will probably be very hard to maintain a residual given the high demand in a spa from urea/ammonia from bathers. If MPS is present and used, then it would oxidize these compounds first before chlorine. If neither are present, then oxygen in the water can oxidize them as can an ozonator, but there won't be any chlorine residual in this case.

This link to ecoOne shows that they use "GLB Sanitizing Shock" which I believe is just this product which is Dichlor. The recommended dose of 1-2 teaspoons is 2-4 ppm FC in 350 gallons so not particularly "low" except that it will likely get used up oxidizing urea/ammonia so none will be left to kill bacteria.

So I don't see how one could keep a low chlorine or bromine residual when using an enzyme product. It can be seen as helping actual oxidizers to oxidize organics faster, but you still need an oxidizer to do the work. Perhaps in combination with an ozone system it will help keep water clear better, but without an ozonator I don't see how the 1-2 teaspoons after a soak will be enough to have the spa be sanitary.

If you have to rinse filters weekly, then it sounds like they also have a clarifier product in their system -- perhaps this is the filterOne cartridge filter cleanser.

Also, as for how long the water can go between doing a drain/refill, I suspect that the main reason for the 3 month rule (depending on bather load) with regular sanitation using chlorine was due to using Dichlor-only and its associated CYA buildup since that would just lead to more and more problems with the chlorine being less effective for disinfection and most importantly less effective for oxidizing ammonia/urea so monochloramine would build up. It was possible that algae could develop as well turning the water dull and cloudy. So by using Dichlor initially and then switching to bleach, one no longer has these problems and it may be possible to go longer than 3 months without changing the water, though I'm not recommending that yet until we see how things go. The use of 4 ppm FC per day of bleach will add around 200 ppm salt to the water per month (including the 100 ppm salt that comes from using any source of chlorine), but this should not be a problem even after 6 months or more. If one takes a shower before using the tub and makes sure their swimsuits are thoroughly rinsed, then the amount of other organics introduced into the tub will be minimized.

Richard

So, do you think any of these products are worth while? Has anyone had any experience with them? Seems too good to be true.