greenworks Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Richard I finally found a taylor supplier in canada but anyway here is is his reply to my telling him I only use dichlor to get the CYA up the switch to bleach as to not increase the CYA to a point that the chlorine source is not as effective Jason, Generally for a spa CYA is not required. If the tub is outside with no cover on it ever.. then CYA would be required. You may be better to switch to Lithium as it is unstabilized and still a granular product. BLeach has many by-products and not a very "clean" product. he also gave me a price for the 2005 and the 2006 kit which one was better for chlorine tubs the 2006 right? and the 2005 is 50 bucks cheaper... Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Jason, The Taylor K-2006 kit is better because it's chlorine test is FAS-DPD so can measure both Free Chlorine (FC) and Combined Chlorine (CC) separately and accurately with a precision of 0.2 ppm for a 25 ml sample size and 0.5 ppm for a 10 ml sample size. You also measure by counting drops until the pink/red sample turns clear so even if one is color blind one can do the test. Finally, the test can measure up to 50 ppm FC. The DPD test (which is in the K-2005), on the other hand, usually only measures up to around 5 ppm using a comparator and usually bleaches out above 10 ppm. This is a situation where you get what you pay for. I'm sorry these kits are so expensive in Canada. I don't understand why that's so. If there is another manufacturer that makes a FAS-DPD kit that was a Canadian company and less expensive, then that might be OK. I know that tftestkits.com would ship their $68 TF100 to Canada for a flat rate of $35 and then you'd pay a customs fee of around $16 so that's a total of around $120 as a basis for comparison. The TF100 has 36% more (quantity of) tests than the K-2006. The advice about no CYA is the standard traditional industry advice that also leads to no CYA in indoor pools. It only takes into account CYA's protection of chlorine against sunlight and ignores the effect of CYA combining with chlorine to make the disinfecting chlorine level much, much lower. If you didn't use any CYA at all in your hot tub, then you would be overdosing with chlorine. Your swimsuits, skin, hair, hot tub cover would all degrade much faster. This in fact happens with my wife's personal experience when using a community center indoor pool during the winter that has 1-2 ppm FC with no CYA vs. our own outdoor pool with 3.5 ppm FC and 30 ppm CYA where even after more than 4 summers of use there is minimal swimsuit degradation and minimal effect on hair and skin. As for lithium hypochlorite, that is certainly an option though it is expensive. It is a powder so might be less likely to spill. It is supposed to dissolve easily, but there was a report on this forum that said it didn't -- not even in a bucket. Lithium hypochlorite is essentially the same as Sodium hypochlorite (bleach or chlorinating liquid) -- neither has CYA nor calcium and both have the same amount of extra salt. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David G Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Jason who did you find in Canada ? I did a bit of research last week and did not find any vendors that gave me any confidence or price break so ordered the one Richard recommended from http://www.tftestkits.com/ today. Given the cost of everything else in this game I decided to bite the bullet and get the kit from a reliable source. Dave there was very helpful and shipping is next day. It would be handy to find a Canadian source for the supplies although I understand that the kit will last more than one season. I switched to bleach this weekend after getting my CYA up over the past week using my old dichlor supplies. I am also keeping a container of lithium so that my wife can treat the pond when I am out of town on business without having to use my "chlorine system." I have rigged up one of those half litre plastic drink or juice containers that you can open and close the little spigot on. I have used a permanent marker and marked off single dose gradiants. Am leaving the container in a sink in the basement for a couple of weeks to make sure that nothing reacts with the bleach. david Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 DAvid I found a guy in Calgary, they where given to me by the link richard had posted. CL Marketing Inc. 2770 - 24 Avenue NE Calgary, AB T1Y 6V7 Canada Phone 1.403.250.2494 Toll Free 1.800.661.8179 Fax 1.403.250.8767 Toll Free Fax 1.800.301.7104 problem they are still 159 for the 2005 and 199 for the 2006 but I have a email in as to why the price differcen with the fairly even dollar. High but much lower than the 300+ I was getting from everyone else up here, I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border.Or I can get rainbow kits from pentair up here for 60 bucks but they are not as accurate in the fc it is the match the colour which gives you a ball park but not much else. the biggest pain is answering everyone up here why I need a test for CYA as I use a cover they are just trained to push the 50 dollar bottles of dichlor or bromine or x product. I had a long conversation with a spa guy that said his chemicals are the cheapest bar none on the market so me being the kind of guy I am said really because after I get my tub loaded with cya and Chlorine after a fill which I am estmating costs me 7-8 bucks I am a $2 a MONTH which is a jug and some of bleach a month give or take a few pennies....I told him if he can beat that I will listen it got very quite in the room Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border. The TF100 kit contents are listed in this post where you can see that the kit contents are the same as the Taylor reagents -- just larger quantities. So you can reorder the Taylor reagents locally to refill (though Dave will be disappointed -- but he'll understand since the shipping is so expensive). Of course, those refills might be pretty pricey locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border. The TF100 kit contents are listed in this post where you can see that the kit contents are the same as the Taylor reagents -- just larger quantities. So you can reorder the Taylor reagents locally to refill (though Dave will be disappointed -- but he'll understand since the shipping is so expensive). Of course, those refills might be pretty pricey locally. we that ends this guys chase for a kit!! thanks for the tip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 DAvid I found a guy in Calgary, they where given to me by the link richard had posted. CL Marketing Inc. 2770 - 24 Avenue NE Calgary, AB T1Y 6V7 Canada Phone 1.403.250.2494 Toll Free 1.800.661.8179 Fax 1.403.250.8767 Toll Free Fax 1.800.301.7104 problem they are still 159 for the 2005 and 199 for the 2006 but I have a email in as to why the price differcen with the fairly even dollar. High but much lower than the 300+ I was getting from everyone else up here, I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border.Or I can get rainbow kits from pentair up here for 60 bucks but they are not as accurate in the fc it is the match the colour which gives you a ball park but not much else. the biggest pain is answering everyone up here why I need a test for CYA as I use a cover they are just trained to push the 50 dollar bottles of dichlor or bromine or x product. I had a long conversation with a spa guy that said his chemicals are the cheapest bar none on the market so me being the kind of guy I am said really because after I get my tub loaded with cya and Chlorine after a fill which I am estmating costs me 7-8 bucks I am a $2 a MONTH which is a jug and some of bleach a month give or take a few pennies....I told him if he can beat that I will listen it got very quite in the room Bet your spa supplier is not as quick to help you if your tub has any sort of issues since you are not purchasing product from him. Customer service is worth its weight in gold, good customers get great service (for most places) I still don't beleive in the bleach therory. The tub manufactures will void the warrenty, and its not because they make the money off chemical sales, they don't make the chemicals, just the tub. the tubs I see that use bleach are faded and the plastic becomes brittle and I have never had my CYA level go sky high using di-chlor if you do the water changes when needed and di-chlor is very close to ph netrual so it is less abusive when adding to a tub. Being we service alot of tubs, not just do chemistry, we see the other end of what happens to the spas with different chemiclas. Don't even ask about biguininades. Dichlor for $50?? we have 2 lbs for $17 and that lasts people quite a long time, smaller tubs untill the next water change. Canada pricing sounds bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 the tubs I see that use bleach are faded and the plastic becomes brittle and I have never had my CYA level go sky high using di-chlor if you do the water changes when needed and di-chlor is very close to ph netrual so it is less abusive when adding to a tub. Being we service alot of tubs, not just do chemistry, we see the other end of what happens to the spas with different chemiclas. Did the tubs that use bleach use ONLY bleach, even initially? If so, then that is much, much harsher on the tub since the disinfecting chlorine (hypochlorous acid concentration) is higher without CYA by a factor of 17 (compared to only adding bleach after the CYA gets to 20 ppm). Also, if the bleach is added without good circulation (say, with the pump off so that it doesn't get fully diluted), then it can settle to the bottom in concentrated form which is obviously bad. What I've been recommending with regard to bleach is to only add it after the CYA level has built up to around 20 ppm (usually about a week of Dichlor usage at 3-4 ppm FC per day) and then add it very slowly over a return flow with the pump running (but not the jets, to prevent splashing). For extra safety, one can take a bucket of spa water and add the bleach to it and then add the bucket water back into the spa slowly. As for CYA levels, how much Dichlor was added how frequently and how long between water changes? The amount of CYA reported by multiple users on this forum almost exactly matches the amount predicted based on their Dichlor usage -- namely, for every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, they get 9 ppm CYA. This relative amount of CYA in Dichlor is a chemical fact of Dichlor -- it's not any "separate" CYA in it (see this Wiki page for its chemical structure and compare it to CYA here). So the only way that you would get less CYA, other than through dilution, is if it broke down somehow, but I've had several spa users and many pool users verify that it doesn't break down except under some specific circumstances (very slowly over a 6+ months season and sometimes rapidly if a pool is let go over the winter where some soil bacteria can consume CYA and convert it to ammonia -- see this link for details). It is also incorrect that the use of Dichlor is pH neutral due to the pH of the Dichlor itself. Dichlor initially added to water is near pH neutral, but the usage of chlorine is an acidic process so the net result of adding chlorine and having it used up is acidic and has the pH drop. The reason this normally isn't seen in spas is due to aeration of the water which outgasses carbon dioxide which makes the pH rise (so on average, the pH seems to have a more stable average). This has been proven in many pools where aeration is easily controlled and in my own pool I use chlorinating liquid which is initially high in pH yet the pH of my pool is rock-solid stable. I have an opaque pool cover that prevents most aeration and I don't have any aerating water features (waterfalls, spillovers, fountains, etc.). Multiple pool and some spa users have found that lowering the TA level reduces the rate of pH rise, though with spa users this is less obvious since there is so much aeration due to the jets, but with pool users the effects are very noticeable. The chemical details about the acidity of chlorine usage may be found in this link. In spas, there may be more outgassing of chlorine itself (mostly as hypochlorous acid) due to the higher temperatures in which case that causes some rise in pH so that may explain why the bleach isn't quite as pH neutral on average compared to use in pools. Anyway, on balance with appropriate adjustment of TA, it is true that Dichlor on average can be pH neutral with the net result of a slow drop in TA over time. But it is not true that bleach would cause more pH swings or have the pH get out of whack too quickly -- also, higher pH closer to 8.0 is not nearly as destructive as lower pH below 7.0. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boute Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Jason, I know that tftestkits.com would ship their $68 TF100 to Canada for a flat rate of $35 and then you'd pay a customs fee of around $16 so that's a total of around $120 as a basis for comparison. The TF100 has 36% more (quantity of) tests than the K-2006. Richard FYI any time you order from US in the (note ) specify USPS not UPS as the courier. USPS merges nicely with Canada Post and I have never paid duty fees or PST, only GST at delivery. This is something I have experienced everytime I Imported using USPS. Most of the US vendors don't even know this and it is actualy cheaper for them to us USPS. Keep in mind it will take longer to get it but that is the cost difference. Sorry for changing subject but had to mention this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickP3 Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 DAvid I found a guy in Calgary, they where given to me by the link richard had posted. CL Marketing Inc. 2770 - 24 Avenue NE Calgary, AB T1Y 6V7 Canada Phone 1.403.250.2494 Toll Free 1.800.661.8179 Fax 1.403.250.8767 Toll Free Fax 1.800.301.7104 problem they are still 159 for the 2005 and 199 for the 2006 but I have a email in as to why the price differcen with the fairly even dollar. High but much lower than the 300+ I was getting from everyone else up here, I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border.Or I can get rainbow kits from pentair up here for 60 bucks but they are not as accurate in the fc it is the match the colour which gives you a ball park but not much else. the biggest pain is answering everyone up here why I need a test for CYA as I use a cover they are just trained to push the 50 dollar bottles of dichlor or bromine or x product. I had a long conversation with a spa guy that said his chemicals are the cheapest bar none on the market so me being the kind of guy I am said really because after I get my tub loaded with cya and Chlorine after a fill which I am estmating costs me 7-8 bucks I am a $2 a MONTH which is a jug and some of bleach a month give or take a few pennies....I told him if he can beat that I will listen it got very quite in the room Bet your spa supplier is not as quick to help you if your tub has any sort of issues since you are not purchasing product from him. Customer service is worth its weight in gold, good customers get great service (for most places) I still don't beleive in the bleach therory. The tub manufactures will void the warrenty, and its not because they make the money off chemical sales, they don't make the chemicals, just the tub. the tubs I see that use bleach are faded and the plastic becomes brittle and I have never had my CYA level go sky high using di-chlor if you do the water changes when needed and di-chlor is very close to ph netrual so it is less abusive when adding to a tub. Being we service alot of tubs, not just do chemistry, we see the other end of what happens to the spas with different chemiclas. Don't even ask about biguininades. Dichlor for $50?? we have 2 lbs for $17 and that lasts people quite a long time, smaller tubs untill the next water change. Canada pricing sounds bad. Hillbilly Hot Tub - Do tub manufacturers really void a warranty if you use a different form of the same sanitizer? e.g., use bleach instead of Dichlor. If so, this is a very unsettling to me because we have a new tub with a long warranty and don't want to jeopardize it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHCPMAN Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Hello Greenworks Did you ever find the taylor kit cheaper then what CL marketing was offering??? I can see from the net some sites are selling the 2006 kit for 49-69 dollars US. I don't feel good about giving a company 199 for the same product. The screw factor comes into play here. They seem to have you over a barrel but my choice seems to be 199 or nothing.... so far I have chosen to go the nothing route. Oh well I will keep looking. I'm in Calgary as well.... perhaps we should order 2 kits and pay for only 1 shipping cost?? Let me know.... I live in the NW Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Hello Greenworks Did you ever find the taylor kit cheaper then what CL marketing was offering??? I can see from the net some sites are selling the 2006 kit for 49-69 dollars US. I don't feel good about giving a company 199 for the same product. The screw factor comes into play here. They seem to have you over a barrel but my choice seems to be 199 or nothing.... so far I have chosen to go the nothing route. Oh well I will keep looking. I'm in Calgary as well.... perhaps we should order 2 kits and pay for only 1 shipping cost?? Let me know.... I live in the NW Keith the fellas at the calgary dealer are looking into why the price difference I wasn't willing to wait so I ordered the TF100 being it is the same test fluids at the taylor and the bottle sizes are bigger and best of all landed to me 103 bucks...Chemgeek had stated these are the same accurate testing kits versus other where you are playing match the pink to the pink... Hilly Billy...As far as the comment about dealer service, I don't feel that being taken advantage off is treating customers well either. It would cost me over two dollars (maybe more in heavy use) a day to treat the tub the way they wanted me to, and the whole reason I found this site and chemgeek helped me out is our tub was cloudy and I had swimmers ear from using it, since switching to bleach my tub has had NO problems at all the water is crystal clear and I have spent $1.89 on a jug of bleach that lasts 3-4 weeks. Lastly my tub had very little warranty when I bought it due to the nature of the deal so warranty was not in the picture.I pour my bleach over a return jet slowly so the mixing is right away I may even add it with water to make the process less of a chance of settling out in the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Hot Tub Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 DAvid I found a guy in Calgary, they where given to me by the link richard had posted. CL Marketing Inc. 2770 - 24 Avenue NE Calgary, AB T1Y 6V7 Canada Phone 1.403.250.2494 Toll Free 1.800.661.8179 Fax 1.403.250.8767 Toll Free Fax 1.800.301.7104 problem they are still 159 for the 2005 and 199 for the 2006 but I have a email in as to why the price differcen with the fairly even dollar. High but much lower than the 300+ I was getting from everyone else up here, I may go the t-100 route in the long run my only sticky point is I can get taylor refills easier here go figure just not the bigger kits, with the t100 kit I have to always get refills across the border.Or I can get rainbow kits from pentair up here for 60 bucks but they are not as accurate in the fc it is the match the colour which gives you a ball park but not much else. the biggest pain is answering everyone up here why I need a test for CYA as I use a cover they are just trained to push the 50 dollar bottles of dichlor or bromine or x product. I had a long conversation with a spa guy that said his chemicals are the cheapest bar none on the market so me being the kind of guy I am said really because after I get my tub loaded with cya and Chlorine after a fill which I am estmating costs me 7-8 bucks I am a $2 a MONTH which is a jug and some of bleach a month give or take a few pennies....I told him if he can beat that I will listen it got very quite in the room Bet your spa supplier is not as quick to help you if your tub has any sort of issues since you are not purchasing product from him. Customer service is worth its weight in gold, good customers get great service (for most places) I still don't beleive in the bleach therory. The tub manufactures will void the warrenty, and its not because they make the money off chemical sales, they don't make the chemicals, just the tub. the tubs I see that use bleach are faded and the plastic becomes brittle and I have never had my CYA level go sky high using di-chlor if you do the water changes when needed and di-chlor is very close to ph netrual so it is less abusive when adding to a tub. Being we service alot of tubs, not just do chemistry, we see the other end of what happens to the spas with different chemiclas. Don't even ask about biguininades. Dichlor for $50?? we have 2 lbs for $17 and that lasts people quite a long time, smaller tubs untill the next water change. Canada pricing sounds bad. Hillbilly Hot Tub - Do tub manufacturers really void a warranty if you use a different form of the same sanitizer? e.g., use bleach instead of Dichlor. If so, this is a very unsettling to me because we have a new tub with a long warranty and don't want to jeopardize it. Yes they will. I know of several manufacturers that will void the warrenty if they find out you are using household bleach, including the lines we carry. They tell our service techs to check water chemistry and what chemicals are used when they go for a service call, just like you have to show your mainteance record for a car warrenty. Some will also void if biguinades are used, which is a system that was made for hot tubs, it just causes issues/damages if the person misses or miss calculates amounts in a step so they just say don't use it. I read in here once that they have no way of telling which kind of chlorine is used. I was told by the industry they can by testing for the inert ingredients which would tell them what kind of chlorine was used. Each chlorine has a very distint chemical compound that tells them down to the brand. The chance that they would take the time to do this may be slim, but I would not push it on such an investment. They void the warrenty because if you do not use the cya with the bleach and keep up with the ph, houshold bleach will destry the tub. Thats why they say dichlor only. If the tub is used under normal circumstances, the cya does not get high. If it is high if you use the formula they have to figure out when to do water changes you will find you are at the time to change the water. I value my tub warrenty to much to take the chance to try to save a little money with household bleach, but that is my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I was told by the industry they can by testing for the inert ingredients which would tell them what kind of chlorine was used. Each chlorine has a very distint chemical compound that tells them down to the brand. The chance that they would take the time to do this may be slim, but I would not push it on such an investment. They void the warrenty because if you do not use the cya with the bleach and keep up with the ph, houshold bleach will destry the tub. Thats why they say dichlor only. If the tub is used under normal circumstances, the cya does not get high. If it is high if you use the formula they have to figure out when to do water changes you will find you are at the time to change the water. I value my tub warrenty to much to take the chance to try to save a little money with household bleach, but that is my opinion. (If you haven't read this post I wrote, I suggest you take a look since I try and explain the chlorine/CYA relationship in words rather than just equations). There is absolutely no way they can tell the difference between adding CYA and bleach separately vs. adding Dichlor. Dichlor produces the identical chemicals in the water as adding CYA and chlorine separately. The only chemical difference would be the level of salt in the water since most hypochlorite sources have extra salt (sodium chloride). They can, of course, tell if you only use an unstabilized source of chlorine such as bleach without using ANY stabilized chlorine such as Dichlor or adding any CYA separately. They can tell this by simply testing the CYA level in the water (which would be zero if you didn't use Dichlor at all or add CYA separately). You are absolutely correct that they void the warranty because it is true that using bleach or any other source of chlorine without any CYA added or already in the water WILL be exceptionally strong (of course, this is the same "industry" that says not to use CYA in indoor pools, but that's another matter I won't get into here). This is why I tell people to first use Dichlor to get up to around 20 ppm CYA before switching to bleach -- that usually takes about a week of Dichlor usage. The issue with more rapid degradation of the spa is not that bleach does not have CYA when adding it (unless you spill it directly on a surface in concentrated form), but rather that if you use ONLY bleach and therefore have no CYA in the water at all, then it's far more powerful and corrosive. The warranty voiding rule is based on simplistic all-or-nothing logic which is easy to explain to customers but makes no logical sense chemically (in terms of being a complete bleach ban). The chlorine concentration when using Dichlor varies during tub usage from being very strong the first day to less strong to after a week to less and less strong until the next water change. The amount of CYA in the water and the relative strength of the chlorine (via the hypochlorous acid concentration) if one added 4 ppm FC per day using only Dichlor would be the following (assuming 4 ppm FC) at the end of each period indicated: Day 1: 3.64 ppm CYA; 0.777 ppm HOCl (in Cl2 units) Day 2: 7.28 ppm CYA; 0.370 ppm HOCl Day 3: 10.9 ppm CYA; 0.214 ppm HOCl Day 4: 14.6 ppm CYA; 0.144 ppm HOCl Day 5: 18.2 ppm CYA; 0.108 ppm HOCl Day 6: 21.8 ppm CYA; 0.086 ppm HOCl Day 7: 25.5 ppm CYA; 0.071 ppm HOCl Week 2: 51 ppm CYA; 0.032 ppm HOCl Week 3: 77 ppm CYA; 0.021 ppm HOCl Week 4: 102 ppm CYA; 0.015 ppm HOCl Month 2: 204 ppm CYA; 0.007 ppm HOCl Month 3: 306 ppm CYA; 0.005 ppm HOCl If one used bleach or any other unstabilized source of chlorine without first using a stabilized source or adding CYA explicitly, then one would have 4 ppm FC with no CYA which is 1.643 ppm HOCl (it's not half, or 2, even at a pH of 7.5 because of the 104F tub temperature). If one uses bleach after about one week of Dichlor (to get to 20 ppm CYA), then after the first week the disinfecting/oxidizing chlorine concentration is 0.096 ppm. As I said in an earlier post, the difference in disinfecting chlorine levels between my recommendation of using 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA (the CYA coming from the Dichlor after about a week of usage) vs. using bleach alone at 4 ppm FC with no CYA is a factor of 17 difference. That's a HUGE difference. If it took 5 years for a hot tub component to corrode at 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA, then it would only take 3.5 months for that same corrosion if one used bleach without first using Dichlor to get the CYA level up (this is assuming linear proportionality of corrosion -- it's not usually that linear, but the point is still the same). If one assumes the dosing shown above and a 3-month time between refills, then the average chlorine level over the 3-month period is approximately 0.029 ppm HOCl. If one instead uses my proposed method, then the average is 0.108 ppm HOCl. So what I am proposing is, on average, about 3.7 times stronger in chlorine. This is a conservative recommendation right now due to the number of reports of itching, cloudy water and other problems after one month or more of Dichlor-only usage. I am thinking of raising the target CYA level after we get some confirmation that the more stable chlorine level is of significant benefit. So we might go up to 40 or 50 ppm CYA which would not be that much more in chlorine concentration on average than the Dichlor-only method, but would be more consistent and wouldn't go too low in months 2 and 3. I don't know why you say the CYA doesn't get high under normal circumstances. This lack of significant buildup would be true if one were using MPS daily and Dichlor weekly as many do with the "newer" Nature2 instructions (which aren't exactly this method, but this is how they are typically interpreted). If one adds chlorine every day, then one builds up CYA. Take a look at the multiple posts on this forum where spa users have measured their CYA levels and see that it is fairly consistent with what I described. The 4 ppm FC per day is not followed by everyone -- it's around 2 teaspoons of Dichlor in 350 gallons. So lower dosing would result in less CYA buildup, proportionately. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wireman Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 I'm having excellent results using dichlor to bout 20-30 ppm then using bleach. Very happy with the water. And I'm noticing that if I don't treat for 2-3 days and don't use the tub there is still residual 2ppm bleach usually present. Not aerating the water. Of course it is the dead of winter here and there isn't really anything to get in the tub when the cover is on. Have to recomend this method. Water smells great when you test for CC and treat with MPS regularly. Thanks again Chemgeek! For helping us all out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill G Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Same here. I've had great results. Used Dichlor for a bit over a week, got the CYA up to about 30, then switched to bleach. The water appears great, but I've been shocking weekly with just bleach, vs. MPS. Is there enough of a difference to be concerned about? My water and chemical levels are spot on, or so they appear. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Bill, Are you asking if there is enough of a difference between shocking with bleach vs. MPS? Technically speaking, if you've been maintaining sufficient chlorine levels you shouldn't need to shock as there should be no buildup of chloramines. Some say that shocking with chlorine helps prevent bacteria from developing resistance, but since it takes such a small amount of chlorine to kill most bacteria I'm a bit dubious of the need to shock. Perhaps when the CYA kept going up when using only Dichlor that might have made sense, but at the consistent disinfection levels you now have I'm not so sure it's needed. There is some advantage to periodically shocking with MPS as it can oxidize organics that chlorine doesn't touch or only partially oxidizes. Technically, using MPS regularly would have the MPS oxidize ammonia and organics leaving chlorine to just disinfect. This would avoid the formation of disinfection by-products. The problem is that some people are sensitive to MPS and it's not cheap plus exposes you to that oxidizing power as well. So I don't have a good answer for you on this one. My hunch is that a weekly MPS in a spa is probably a good thing though it is probably not needed if one has an ozonator since ozone should play the role of MPS instead. I would say you should just experiment to see what works best for you and report back what you find. If the water stays clear with no shocking, then great. If shocking with bleach takes care of any issues, fantastic. And if shocking with MPS works, also great. A lot of it will depend on how much junk you put into your spa. If you are clean (i.e. shower before getting in, don't wear makeup or lotions) then you mostly just add ammonia/urea from sweat and that's relatively easy to take care of with regular chlorine dosing and no need for shocking. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill G Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Richard: Thanks greatly. It's your formula that I read, and followed, when I first got the tub (had it a month now). It's worked great. The ONLY issue I appear to have had is that a few days I've tested and had 0 free chlorine, but that's not every day. As for showering prior to tubbing, yes, that's what we've done...and the water is near perfect. We add the dosage after getting out, run the jets on low for about 25 minutes, leave uncovered for about 25 more, and then cover it. Just to try and give a tiny bit back to you, I have kept up with the CYA levels (as requested in a much earlier post). After getting the CYA up to 30ppm, and then switching to chlorine bleach (reg. unscented Clorox), the CYA has dropped to 29 in one month. It's perfectly stable, or so it would appear. Thanks again for the advice on MPS. I appreciate all the answers you give here. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Bill, Thanks for the update. As for getting to zero chlorine, that just means you needed to add more beforehand for some reason -- perhaps some higher bather load than is typical (perhaps more sweating than usual). Anyway, between MPS and chlorine you can find a balance and methodology that works well for you. Glad it's working for you. Thanks, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.