waterbear

It was man last time I checked! I'm just a guy who owns a pool of my own and works part time in a pool store.

The problem with using sodium carbonate (pH increaser, soda ash, washing soda, sal soda) to increase pH is that it also raise TA by a large amount and you get caught on the roller coaster..... What I would suggest is get your TA in line and then use Borax (20 mule team in the green box at the laundry aisle of your supermarket) to raise the pH. It will have minimal impact on your TA! As a side benefit borates in the water will introduce a secondary buffer system that helps stabilize pH and in a concentration of 30-50 ppm have an algaestatic effect. If you don't want to buy sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax) at the grocery store you can buy the pentahydrate (same thing except less water molecules attached so it is a bit more concentrated for a given weight) at a pool store under such brand names as ProTeam Supreme and Bioguard Optimizer! I would add about 1/4 box at a time and retest the pH in about an hour until it is where it needs to be.

Biguanide (Baqua) is not compatable with many different chemicals. I would not take the chance on using simple greeen. anyway, I would not use any product for cleaning a filter that might cause foaming in your pool. Biguanide (Baqua) is not compatable with many different chemicals. There is no telling what effect it would have on a biguanide pool or whether it would even be effective. I would not take the chance on using simple greeen. anyway, I would not use any product for cleaning a filter that might cause foaming in your pool.

Don't worry about TDS....it 's a bogus measurement! Strips are usless for it! You need a meter like a MyronL (this is what Taylor sells) to test it. Just drain and refill every 3 months and you will be fine!

I realize this is getting confusing...let me give you an easy bromine recipe.... On fill balance water the put sodium bromide in...shock with 1 cup bleach.... put floater with bromine tablets in spa..adust floater so bromine level stays about 6 ppm..... shock with 1 cup bleach weekly and after heavy use don't enter spa after shocking until bromine level drops to 6 ppm drain and refill every 1-3 months depending on use keep other paramters balanced GET A GOOD DROP BASED TEST KIT SUCH AS ONE FROM TAYLOR TECHNOLOGIES FOR TESTING WATER. The k-2106 complete bromine test kit is a good one http://www.taylortechnologies.com/products...&KitID=2232 The tablets will help maintain a more constant bromine level in the water.

no necessary if you are using chlorine to shock.

You can get sodium bromde from HTH , Proteam,and Leisure Time just to mention a few. It usually comes in little packets and larger containers. . Sodium bromide is NOT rock salt (sodium chloride)...it is sodium bromide 2 part bromine system....sodium bromide on fill and oxizider 3 part bromine system sodium bromide on fill, oxizider, and tabs in floater. It's really pretty easy...problem is most spa dealers are idiots when it comes to water chemisty and don't have a clue! Suitable oxidizers are chloine (usually liquid....aka laundry bleach!, dichlor granuales (dichloro-s-triazinetrione) , MPS (postasium monopersufate....non chlorine shock) and ozone. Keep pH between 7.4 and 8.0 bromine 6-8 ppm ALK 80-150 calcium hardness > 150 ppm (but below 300 so you don't get scaling in the heater shock (oxidizer) when bromine levels are low shock after each use not rocket science! Hypobromous acid is the santizer....bromine ions in the water from the sodium bromide are converted into hypobromous acid when you add the oxidizer. In a bromine spa you don't worry about the bromamines since they are also effective sanitzers....sounds like someone gave you info that they confused with chlorine chemisty. IF I am not mistaken the Leisure Time 3 part system is biguinide! (same as baqua and revacil) Here is a link that might prove helpful (but they ARE trying to sell their products) http://www.rhtubs.com/store/proNcon.htm Chlorine is also an effective spa sanitizer. Dichlor granuals are all that you need....shock with dichlor or bleach.

SWG is a yes, ionizer or mineralizer is a no. Supposedly a 'mineral' system (mineral is a marketing word for metals...most are either copper/silver or silver/zinc system) will let you run lower FC levels. Recent research in kill times for water borne illnesses shows this is not true and, in fact, the Australian government has recently required that 'mineral' systems be used with NORMAL and not reduced chlorine levels to provide proper sanitation....If only our own EPA was so diligent in protecting our health!. DE will filter to about 6 microns, cartridge will filter to about 20 microns, sand will filter to about 60 microns...sand is the easiest to maintain, DE the most work to do properly (backwashing DE is not a good idea for too many reasons I don't want to get into here) cartridge gives good filtration but make sure they oversize it or you will be cleaning it constantly (and try to stay away from filters with multiple carts....they are a nightmare to clean) Carts are more exepnsive to maintain than either DE or Sand. I have a cart and I love it but it WAS oversized so my time between cleanings is long. Reverse flow (floor jets) look good on paper but ususally require some tricky plumbing that adds to expense and in actual use, from what I understand, doesn't seem to make that much difference.

Ok, found some more info on peak boost. It is sodium bromide and dichlor! I don't like combination products like this. find plain sodium bromde and just use bleach to activate it and shock. (plain unscented laundry bleach. The biggest problem I can see with the peak boost is your bromine reserve will soon rise to very high levels.

I would think not....what is the ingredient in the Spa shock? is it a chlorine compound or a non chlorine shock?

If you read the very small print on the bottom of the N2 directions it says that you can use dichlor instead of non chlorine shock. IMHO, this is the preferred way to do it! The dichlor IS your shock!

No confusion at all....all 'mineral' (a marketing work for metals) systems in the U.S. will tell you that you can use a lower sanitizer level and still have properly sanitized water. According to recent info on water borne pathogen kill times this is simply not true because there is NOT enough residual sanitizer in the water at the recommended low levels. You can use them successfully with normal sanitizer levels but why bother? Plain chlorine sanitation (my first choice) or bromine sanitation (good for indoor spas) is really very easy.

I also have a fiberglass pool. You can't drain it all the way without special precautions but it is safe to drain it about 1 foot below the skimmer and then refill. you will have to do this repeatedly until you lower the CYA level sufficiently. it might take many partial drains and refills to achieve this.

There is really one one "system that utilizes bromine'....that is bromine. To use bromine first you balance the spa water in terms of total alkalinity, pH, calcium hardness, and treat for metals if present (just like with ANY sanitation system....no change here!) then you add sodium bromide to the water to create your bromine bank. Next you add an oxidizer to the water to convert the bromine to hypobromous acid (sometimes called shocking). Suitable oxidizers are liquid chlorine (laundry bleach), MPS (non chlorine shock) Dichlor (stabilizied granular chlorine), ozone. If you use a chlorine souce be aware that NO chlorine will remain...it is instantly converted into bromine sanitizer! Keep your bromine levels at 6-8 ppm...if they drop then shock to raise them. If you like you can also add a floater with bromine tablets to help maintain a more constant bromine level (bromine tablets also contain either chlorine or MPS, no exceptions!) Bromine tablets without the sodium bromide first are NOT sufficient to sanitize the water! You still need to shock even with the tablets, btw. The sodium bromide is only added on each refill of the spa....after that shocking is all that is needed to reactivate the bromine.

If you are not happy with Nature2 (copper/silver) then you probably wont be happy with spafrog (silver/zinc) or any other ionizer or 'mineral' (marketing term for metals!) system.

They are in my post 2 posts up but I will cut and paste them from that post here for you since you didn't see them Gladly, some of the info comes right off the Nature2 Austrailia website where they say that FC should be at least 1 ppm and higher in pools that use stabilizer. Quite different than the U.S. instructions that call for .5 ppm and make no mention at all of CYA! It is interstesting that the Australian website does not have the spa 'recipe' that uses only N2 and MPS on it like the Amercian website does, nor do they provide any info at all about the N2 'spa sticks other than a product description web page. http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_FAQ_May2005.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_recallupdate.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_Q&A.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/spa_list_Oct_2005.shtml http://www.nature2.com.au/template.cfm?page=FAQ http://www.nature2.com.au/template.cfm?page=Installation There is more but I think this is enough.

You need to drain your pool and refill enough to get the CYA in the 30-50 ppm range! Then keep your FC levels at 3-5 ppm and shock to levels of 12 ppm and you should not have any more problems. TO get rid of the mustard algae you are going to have to keep the chlorine level up at 12 ppm until it is gone! This might mean adding chlorine 2 or 3 times a day since the algae will cause the FC level to drop as it gets used up killing the algae. If your tested CYA is above 100 ppm you need to dilute a sample of pool water with an equal amount of distilled water and test that for CYA, Multuply your results by 2 to get your CYA levels. I would strongly suggest that you cut way back on the trichlor tabs and suppliment your chlorine with liquid which wont add any CYA to the water. Until you get the CYA down you are going to continue having problems.

I have noticed that you have posted in other threads since asking my for sources of my info but have not commented on the sources I provided. Any reason, Brulan1?

Nature2 is a copper/silver system. It by itself will NOT properly sanitize the spa. MPS (non chlorine shock) is NOT a sanitizer....it is only an oxidizer. Kill times of bacteria by copper and silver are very slow so you NEED to have residual sanitizer in the spa at all times for fast kill times. I would recommend that you do NOT let the FC go below 1 ppm with the N2! Dichlor is a fast dissolving form of stabilized chlorine and in the Nature2 recipie for spas on the the Zodiac website it is the first chemical that is to be put into the water when using the N2. Subsequent shocking is done with either dichlor or MPS but I would recommend the dichlor and testing your FC levels so they don't drop below 1 ppm! The fact that your water smelled is indicative of bacterial action! The green was probably algae since the water was a cloudy green. Excess copper in the water can cause the water to turn a green color but the water stays clear and does not smell. N2 does not put enough copper into the water to cause the water to turn blue green but if you used a copper based algaecide in conjuction with it it is possible. N2 is NOT compatible with bromine. IMHO, N2 is not a good way to sanitize a spa. I personally would recommend either chlorine or bromine for spa sanitation.

Gladly, some of the info comes right off the Nature2 Austrailia website where they say that FC should be at least 1 ppm and higher in pools that use stabilizer. Quite different than the U.S. instructions that call for .5 ppm and make no mention at all of CYA! It is interstesting that the Australian website does not have the spa 'recipe' that uses only N2 and MPS on it like the Amercian website does, nor do they provide any info at all about the N2 'spa sticks other than a product description web page. http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_FAQ_May2005.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_recallupdate.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/poolspa_Q&A.shtml http://www.apvma.gov.au/qa/spa_list_Oct_2005.shtml http://www.nature2.com.au/template.cfm?page=FAQ http://www.nature2.com.au/template.cfm?page=Installation There is more but I think this is enough.

What is the ingredient in your bromime activator? Is it sodium bromide? That only had to be added initially to supply the bromine bank. Non chlorine shock (MPS) can cause your pH to lower but I don't think that is the problems. Also , what do you mean by the test results bromine 3/6? What test kit are you using (name and model number if applicable)? sounds like there is a lot of sodium bromide in the water if the shock is making your bromine go off the scale. Also your ozonator should be reactivating the bromine while it is running. As far as the bromine disappearing when the spa was uncovered....the sun does burn off bromine....not as fast as it will chlorine but it will burn it off. Sounds like you have been overdosing on the chems. I will see if I can find any info on the brands you are using....not familiar with them. EDIT: ok, the peak boost is sodium bromide, that should only be added each time you fill the spa at a rate of about 1scant tablespoon per 100 gallons of water. It should not be added again until you drain and reflll the spa. 4 tablespoons should be enough for your spa! I would really recommend shocking with liquid bleach. I would start with about 1/8 cup (2 tablespoons) and see how high that raises the bromine levels. If it does not raise the bromine levels high then go up to 1.4 cup. Also, high sanitizer levels will cause your pH and TA to give false readings so only test them when the bromine level is about 8 ppm or less. Shocking (activating) the bromine will cause it to rise to high levels...that is normal....let the bromine level drop to 6-8 ppm before entering the spa.Hope this is helpful.

Now dealers and contractors are a different story altogether. My contractor, who was an authoized San Juan dealer, and who has recently been dropped by San Juan because of complaints against himand just picked up Viking (!) has not finished my pool in 1.5 years! He made the front page of our local paper today (Sunday) because of numerous complaints against him and poor workmanship. (I cholse not to be in the newspaper artice since he has very recently been trying to rectify some of the problems with my pool installation.) He was the only San Juan dealer in my area and since it is an assigned territory I had no other options if I wanted a San Juan pool! There are several lawsuits against him right now and there is going to be a hearing next Thursday in my county that will decide if he will be able to pull any new permits to install pools. There have been some compliants filed against him with the State licensing board for pool contractors. It has been a nightmare. In my case the pool was installed properly but there are problems with the plumibing and electrical and things were not done according to the contract. Eqiupment was substituted in the lighting and he had to break away part of the new deck that he poured to get access to pipes for the water features that got buried in the cement! The deck is still not repaired! I have not yet passed final inpection. Unfortunately, San Juan's only response to all the complaints about him was to drop him as a dealer. This contractor was checked out. I looked at several pools he installed and talked to prevoius customers. All seemed fine. Something happened since the time I signed the contracts since all of the other complaintents all signed contracts with him after I did. My problems with him started about 2 months after signing the contracts. I do not know what happened in his personal life to cause what seemed like a reputable builder to go so flakey but it just goes to show that there are no guarentees when getting a pool built. Am I sorry I chose a San Juan pool...no. Did I get the pool and equipment I paid for...no. Do I think this builder can correct all the problems.....no. Do I think I am going to have to resort to legal channels to solve the problems....yes. So that is where I stand today.

Be aware that the Nature 2 is a copper/silver system and that the kill times for pathogens are very slow. It is necessary to keep a residual chlorine level for proper sanitation. The Austrailian governemnt recently passed legislation that requires ALL copper/silver systems, including Nature 2 to be used with NORMAL and not reduced chlorine levels in light of recent studies on kill times needed for water born pathogens. Remember that the small water volume and high bather load in a spa makes proper sanitation a necessity! Water borne illnesses from spas are well documented. IMHO, the use of Nature2 with only MPS will NOT provide proper sanitation of the water and even with a .5 ppm FC residual it is doubtful.

Actually was not a problem and the structual reinforcements were braces on the pool so it would not buckle when it was drained...acutually pretty commen for fiberglass pools. All pools need special precautions when draining them completely. Vinyl pools cannot be drained at all unless a special vacumn is hooked up behind the liner and even then there is a chance of liner wrinkling. Concrete pools can pop out of the ground (as can fiberglass) due to hydrostatic pressure. Actually, there really would be no reason to drain a fiberglass pool. The surface does not need acid washing every 3 years or replastering every 10 like gunite, nor does it have a liner than needs to be replaced every 5 years. In the rare event that one does need to be drained it is quite possible to do so as long as proper steps are taken to brace the pool if needed and to take into account any hydrostatic pressure under the pool.

Every one of the major manufacturers of pool equipment has excellent products in their line and some lemons but the major manufacturers do tend to stand behind their products. As far as Jandy goes, the parent comany is WaterPik so it is not a fly by night operation. Jandy is a well respected name in pool equipment...to the point that many people in the business refer to three way pool valves as Jandy valves in a generic way (even though there are also other manufacturers of them) becuase their valves have proven to be among the best over the years and have set the standard.