waterbear

A GOOD test kit makes all the difference in the world on how easy your water is to balance. If you are using bromine I would recommend the Taylor K-2106. If you are using chlorine the Taylor K-2006. While these kits might seem to be pricey when compared to strips think how much your tub cost and then look at the price of the kit again. When you consider how much you will save on chemicals NOT wasted it really is a bargain!

The only thing to fear is fear itself. It's just a spa, not rocket science!

Biguanide works by causing bacterial cells to 'explode'. The 'baquagoo' is actually the remains of the cell wall and other stuff. Biguanide is not an oxidizer so these bacterial remains do not get 'burned off' like they do with chlorine and bromine. The peroxide oxidier that is used with biguanide does help burn them off to an extent but it is not as strong an oxidizing agent at the concentrations used. Higher concentrations are out of the question because they would cause bather discomfort, to say the least! This goo gets collected in the filter where it is, hopefully, removed by frequent filter cleaning (MUCH more fequent than is needed with either chlorine or bromine.) This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system. Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system. Biguanide is also used as a medical preservative and there has been a case in recent years where it was used in a popular contact lens solution that let to the outbreak of a corneal amoeba infection that led to blindness in several cases. There was a large recall of this well known contact lens solution just a few years back because of this. Once again this seems to be more evidence of it's limited effectiveness as a biocide. Also, it is not registered for use in Canada. What do they know that we don't? Add to this the known fact that biguanide will destroy certain plastics that have been used in spas and are suspected of affecting pump seals makes this, IMHO, a sanitizer of last resort for those who CANNOT use either chlorine or bromine (rare but it does happen!)

A very strong enzyme product such as Natural Chemistry's Pool First Aid might be useful here. The enzymes in these products were orginally developed for cleaning oil slicks in the ocean. Before using I would try to remove as much of the paint as possible from the liner and pool as suggested above and then use the enzyme to attack what remains.

Bottom line is this, all the aggregate finishes are still basically plaster as far as your water chemistry is concerned. The quartz ones probably last a bit longer than the marble ones which probably last a bit longer than plain marcite but this really depends on how well you keep up your water chemistry since they are ALL reactive surfacesm because of the 'plaster' used with the agrregate, unlike vinyl and fiberglass. Find one that looks AND FEELS the way you like it to and that is within your budget. Some of the aggregate finishes are not the most comfortable to stand or sit on. Remeber, for many years all we had was marcite and it has been a servicable pool finish with a proven track record. As far as the suction cup tires for pool cleaners, they are really designed for fiberglass pools, not plaster or aggregate finishes, to provide traction to climb.

Those numbers are actually more suited to the use of bromine and MPS than to dichlor. If MPS is used for shocking on a regular basis then those numbers might be a bit more workable.

Zoetman, If you reread the original thread on ionizier where I talked to you about test kits you will see that this is what I said (quote by cut and paste): Proper testing means using a GOOD test kit. I would recommend using a Taylor K-2006 for a chlorine system or a Taylor K-2106 for a bromine system. If you decide on biguanide then you will need a test kit for biguanide and peroxide in addition to a test kit that will allow you to test for pH, TA and CH such as one of the Taylor kits above. There are many charts and calculators available to computer how much of a chemical you need to make a change in a given volume of water once you know where you are by testing. I also said the same thing in the thead on where to obtain dry acid. Chemgeek gave you accurate info on the difference between the K-2006 (FAD-DPD titratin test for chlorine), K-2005 (colormetric DPD test for chorine or bromine), and K2106 (FAS-DPD titration test for bromine). All other tests in the kits are identical except that the test for cyanuric acid is not included in the K-2106 since this test is NOT needed in a bromine system. The test kit that you want is either the K-2006 or the K-2106, depending on whether you are using chlorine or bromine. Also, since you have an ionizer on your spa I would recommend getting a teskit for copper (assuming your ionizer is a coppper/silver system and not a silver/zinc system. There are no reliable home tests for either silver or zinc that I know of).

The Jandy units use grams per liter and not ppm (parts per million). .5 gpl is the same as 500 ppm. To be off by this amount is pretty much in spec for a SWG that uses conductivity to approximate the salt level. As far as I know there is no way to calibrate the Jandy units (pretty much true for most of the SWGs out there, btw!). I would not loose any sleep over this. I do wonder how you know it is off by this amount. If you are comparing it to a temperature compensated salinity meter that has been recently calibrated then perhaps you have accurate info. If you are comparing it to a chemical test for chloride then be aware that they only have a precision of 200 ppm and that the salt test strips precision vary with the salt level. It is usually within a few hundered ppm at salt levels of around 3000 ppm (or 3 gpl). I would not worry to much about this if everything is working properly. Hope this is helpful.

Actually, it was me. In a bromine system MPS is generally used as an oxidizer but is wrongly referred to as a shock. Chlorine is just as effective and quite a bit less expensive for this purpose with bromine. MPS has no advantages in a bromine system since either MPS or chlorine will cause the bromine levels to rise and this is what acually 'shocks' the water. In either case you must wait for the levels to drop below 10 ppm before entering the spa so the main advantage to MPS in a chlorine system (only a short wait after shocking) is non existant in a bromine system because the chemistry involved is different. With an indoor chlorine system MPS can be usedful in preventing the formation of combined chlorine and can help in maintaining better indoor air quality!

A question, are you using chlorine, bromine, or biguanide as a sanitizer? These are the only three EPA approved sanitizers. Get a good test kit for testing your water, that is the first step. Strips just won't do the job! If you are using chlorine you want to get a Taylor K-2006. If you are using bromine you want a Taylor K-2106. There are no alternatives to chemicals. Baking soda is used to increase the total alkalinity of your water (one of the water parameters that needs to be monitored and adjusted from time to time). Baking soda is just the commom name for sodium bicarbonate, which is sold by pool and spa supply stores and dealers as "total alkalinity increaser" for a high price. It's just baking soday. Perhaps you are referring to what is sometimes callled the BBB method (bleach, borax and baking soda). Bleach is sodium hypochlorite. Same thing as liquid chlorine but about half the strength. It is one of the possible choices to use as a chlorine source if you are using chlorine. If you are using bromine it is an excellent choice for a shock. Borax is used to increase pH without increasing total alkalinity (The chemical usually sold for increasing pH is sodium carbonate (aka washing soda, sal soda, or soda ash) It will increase pH but it also increases total alkalinity, which is not always what is needed. If you are going to use chlorine you need a chlorine source such as bleach, liquid chlorine, or dichlor. The first two are unstabilized chlorine and that actually has advanteages in hot tubs but you migh need to add a very small amount of stabilizer (cyanuric acid) to the water if the tub is exposed to sunlight. Dichlor is stabilized chlorine but it causes stabilizer levels to keep rising and that causes the chlorine to become a less effective santizer when the stabilizer level gets too high. This could allow the bacteria that causes "hot tub itch" to grow in your water. However, if there is no stabilizer in the water at all it's hard to keep a free chlorine level, especially if the tub is exposed to sunlight. If you are using bromine you need sodium bromide, bromine tablets in a floater (optional), and an oxidizer to convert the sodium bromide into active bromine sanitizer. The most commom oxidizers are bleach, liquid chlorine, dichlor, and MPS (postasium monopersulfate or non chlorine shock). My preference is for bleach. In either case you will need baking soda to raise the total alkalinity when it is too low, dry acid (sodium bisulfate which is usually called pH decreaser or pH down or pH minus or a similar name) to lower the pH when it is too high, Borax (from the laundry aisle of the grocery store) to raise pH when it is too low. This is also sold in pool and spa supply stores as a "water enhancers and agae preventative" when used in a 30-50 ppm concentration for a lot of money! I would recommend staying away from the pH increasers that are usually sold. They are sodium carbonate (see above). They will raise your pH AND your total alkalinity together and often your pH is the only thing that needs to be adjusted! Finally, you might need calcium chloride to increase the hardness of your water if your calcium level is below about 125 ppm for acryic spas, 150 ppm for fiberglass, or 200 ppm for plaster. I know it sounds confusing but it really isn't. The first step is to decide if you are going to use chlorine or bromine. Chlorine is a bit simpler but requires daily checks. Bromine is a bit less maintenance once you get it adjusted but bromine is a known sensitizer that some people are allergic to and it has a decided chemical smell. I do not recommend biguanide (SoftSoak, Revacil, BaquaSpa, etc.). It is very expensive and has more disadvantages than advantages IMHO. It will attack certain plastics that are used in spas and it has a tendancy to develop algae, white water mold, and pink slime. It will also require more frequent filter cleanings and replacement! It's main advantage is for people who have a true chemical sensitivity to both bromine and chlorine. These are the only three EPA aproved sanitizers. All other products (ozone, ionizers and other copper/silver systems, UV, enzymes, etc. are supplimentary sanitizers that must be used in conjuction with (usually) chlorine for properly sanitized water. They are NOT stand alone systems. Hope this is helpful. If you read through the forum you will find a lot of information on the proper use of chlorine, bromine and biguanide. Where do I obtain the dry acid (sodium bisulfate) you mention? I got Ph decreaser from the spa store but is there a less expensive source? Also, I am using Chlorine, baking soda and/or Borax, Ph decreaser and MPS. It seems like you are saying here that I don't really need the MPS. Is that true? My interest is not getting overcharged at the spa store but also, I want the least possible chemical smell to my spa possible. thanks, zoetman Dry acid is Sodium Bisulfate. There is no 'subtitute' for it. You will need to get it at the pool/spa supply. You can also find it at such places as Home Depot, Ace Hardware, and Lowes in the pool Dept. I do not recommend Muriatic acid for spas (although people do use it) since you need such a small amount and I really wouldn't want to try to measure out Muriatic Acid by the teaspoon! Dry acid is much safer in the small amounts that are needed in most spas. MPS is not necessary but can be useful under certain circumstances. I personally don't usually recommend it for outdoor chlorine spas if shocking is done properly and regularly. It offers NO avantages over chlorine as an oxidizer in Bromine systems and is much more expensive. Once again you will need to purchase this at the pool/spa supply. MPS was develped by DuPont under the name of Oxone. They hold the patents on it and they still sell it under that brand name. It doesn't matter who you buy it from or what the brand is, you are getting Oxone!

I am not sure but this might be a phosphate buffer product. There are a few of these on the market and they are not worth it, IMHO. The have too many adverse effects on water chemistry.

The ONLY way to know how much of a chemical to add to change the water balance is by proper testing and then computing how much is needed to change that test result the desired amount for the amount of water in your tub. Proper testing means using a GOOD test kit. I would recommend using a Taylor K-2006 for a chlorine system or a Taylor K-2106 for a bromine system. If you decide on biguanide then you will need a test kit for biguanide and peroxide in addition to a test kit that will allow you to test for pH, TA and CH such as one of the Taylor kits above. There are many charts and calculators available to computer how much of a chemical you need to make a change in a given volume of water once you know where you are by testing. The site that I linked you to before has such calculators available. There is nothing special about usuing borax or baking soda. Baking soda is the common name for sodium bicarbonate, sometimes called sodium hydrogen carbonate. This is what EVERYONE sells as alkalinity increaser for a lot more money than you can buy it for at the grocery! Borax is sodium tetreaborate. You can buy this as a spa additive for a LOT of money as Proteam Gentle Spa (mixed with a fragrance and dry acid to help balance the pH) or you can use 20 mule team borax and some pH decreaser to do exactly the same thing. You just won't have the fragrance!

I will attempt to answer some of the questions you raised. First, hydrostatic relief valves allow groundwater and pool water to mix to relieve any hydrostatic pressure on the pool so it does not pop out of the ground. You will not be aware of them operating (the are usually hidden in the main drain or other inaccessable area of the pool) and you will not see the water drain out of the pool since it will go directly into the ground. Also, depending on your local building codes, if you have a waterline drain to prevent the pool from overflowing during rainy periods then you might or might not be aware of where it drains to. It might be hooked directly into a sewer line or might just percolate into the ground from a perforated buired pipe. In either case you can have the water in the pool diluted by rainwater enough to throw off your waterbalance. The fact that both your salt and CYA are decreasing tends to point out that you are losing water somewhere and it is being replaced by fresh water. Autofill devices can mask leaks. If you can turn yours off then do so and see how fast the water in the pool goes down. You can also do a bucket test to see if the water loss is from a leak or evaporation once you turn off your autofill device. Fill a large (5 gallon) bucket about 2/3 full of pool water and place it on the steps of the pool so it's mostly submerged almost to the water level in the bucket. Mark the water level in the bucket and also mark the water level in the pool at the tile line. Wait a few days. If the water in the pool goes down more than the water level in the bucket then you have a leak. IF they are within about 1/4" of each other then the water loss is evaporation. Also, every time you backwash your filter you dilute the water in the pool because you are removing water and replacing it with your autofill. Finally, get a GOOD test kit. While the HTH kit is not bad I would spring for a Taylor K-2006 (MUCH BETTER, MORE ACCURATE, AND EASIER TO READ Chlorine test!) and use the AquaChek salt test strips to test your salt levels. You won't regret getting that test kit!

There is NO SUCH THING as a chemical free pool or spa! Even your ionizer is adding chemicals to the water, most likely copper and silver. Bottom line is this, there are only three EPA approved sanitizers--chlorine, bromine, and biguanide. Everything else is a secondary santizier that MUST be used with a compatible EPA approved sanitizer residual. Some are useful, others are basically snake oil! If you would like to read up on the different sanitizers and on 'chemical free' systems then check out this and this and this. They are some primers that I wrote for newbies. Bromine does have a distinct chemical smell and is a known sensitizer, chlorine when properly done actually has very little smell but is more difficult to maintain than bromine if you don't check on your spa daily. Biguanide (SoftSoak, BaquaSpa, Revacil, etc.) has a lot of problems associated with its use ranging from degredation of plastic parts in the spa (jets and light covers, etc) to water problems like pink slime and white water mold so I would only recommend it as a last resort for someone who is truely allergic to both bromine and chlorine (rare but it does happen). BTW, dealers like biguanide systems because the profit level is very high! For an indoor spa bromine is my santiizer of choice. The reasons get rather technical so I won't go into them here but have a lot to do with the indoor air quality.

Well, I have a k-2006, k-2005, TFTestkit 100, and a few other kits (Such as PoolForum's PS-234s and a LaMotte kit and an AquaChem kit which has been discontinued, among others) and use LaMotte, Taylor, and AquaTrend test "kits" at work along with Goldline and MyronL meters and a LaMotte colorimeter so I might know a little bit about water tesing . I also have some speciality kits for testing such things as salt level, orthophospates, metals, etc. in my personal collection. I recommend either the K-2006 or the TFTestkit 100. The TFTestkit 100 is a better value for the money IMHO because it contains more of certain reagents and included the OTO test and a wider range pH test and CYA than the K-2006 but it does not include the acid and base demand tests, which are not really that useful IMHO. Either kit would be an excellent choice. If you get the K-2006 and want to add the full functionality of the TFtestkit 100 you would also need to add a Taylor K-1000 to add the OTO/pH daily tester and a K-1721 to add the wider range CYA test (but this probably is not as useful as the K-1000 would be.) You would also then have the acid and base demand tests in the K-2006. I find that I use the pH test in the K-1000 more than the one in the K-2006, btw. Chemgeek is pretty much on the money about reagent life. The FAS-DPD titrant should probably be replaced every year or two, the DPD powder when it turns black, and all the other reagents should be good for at least a few years IF (and this is a big IF) you store the kit in the house in a controlled enviroment (read air conditioning). Also, make sure your reagents are tightly capped between use! If you store it outside or in the garage then I would replace all reagents yearly. You can extent the life of the DPD powder if you vacuum seal it (if you own a vacuum sealer like the foodsaver) during the off season. Light, air, and moisture are its worst enemies.

Hope this is helpful.

Bromine actually has more of a 'chemical' odor than chlorine and is a known sensitizer so more people are likely to have a reaction to it than to chlorine. It's main advantage is that it is a bit easier to maintain without daily attention when compared to chlorine and is a bit more forgiving of water balancing errors. It is definitely more expensive to use than chlorine but might actually be less expensive than a chlorine/metal system.

IMHO, all water tests should be done when the sample has cooled down below 80 degrees. The CYA test is the only one that I know for sure is temperature dependant but why take a chance? I suspect that some of the tests for metals might also be temperature dependant but don't have any info to back it up as of yet. Also, there is no big mystique to keeping a spa on bleach. It's just a form of chlorine and CHLORINE IS CHLORINE. You have 2 types of chlorine, staibilized (adds CYA and is acidic in use) and unstabilized (does not add CYA and is neutral to slightly alkaline in use). There is no mystique to using unstabilized chlorine in a spa whether the chlorine source is bleach or a product made for spas such as HTH spa chlorinating granules (which are unstabilzed calcium hypochlorite or cal hypo). CHLORINE IS CHLORINE!!!!!! Also, TDS is a bogus measurement the way it is commonly applied. It's not the AMOUNT of solids dissolved in the water (total ions) but WHAT THEY ARE (ionic species) that is important. Sodium and Chloride ions are fairly innocuous even at fairly high levels but if you have a lot of calcium ions or copper ions or sulfate ions or cyunurate ions (for example) you might be having water quality problems! Just keep your FC between about 3-6 ppm (NEVER let it drop below 3 ppm, even with ozone, 'minerals' or an ionizer!), shock after use or at least weekly and keep the cover off after shocking, and do your water testing BEFORE you go in and not after! Also, if your FC is below 10 ppm you can enter the spa.

Not entirely true. While bromamines are considered to be effective santizers they do contribute to the 'bromine smell' that many find offensive. This is one reason that regular shocking of a bromine system is important. It reduces the organic load and helps prevent the formation of bromamines. Also, when testing bromine it is the Total Bromine that we measure, which is often a bit higher than the free bromine.The difference is usually small enough to be ignored, however, which is why free bromine is what is usually tested with DPD. You can actually just test for chlorine and if the readings are correct for chlorine you are going to be in the right ballpark for bromine levels. (For example, if your test kit shows 3 ppm chlorine you actually will have a bit over 6 ppm bromine.)

Salt is only lost if water is removed from the pool. How often do you need to top the pool off? Do you have an automatic water leveler to prevent overflows? Have you had a lot of rain? (This could cause the hydrostatic relief valve to open.) Is your CYA level also decreasing with your salt level? (The two will go down if you have a leak or are losing water. If only your salt is going down but the CYA is staying constant then there is a testing error since it is impossible for the salt to go down while the CYA stays constant!) Has the temperature been droppping? The readout on your unit will show a lower salt level as the temperature drops. Finally, 25lbs of salt will cause LESS than a 200 ppm change in 18K which is LESS than the accuracy of most salt tests and MUCH LESS than the accuracy of the readout of your unit! (It acually will raise the salt by 166 ppm). Your unit will operate within a range of parameters and the manufacuter's recommened level is 3200 ppm NOT 3000 ppm. Your unit will actually be better off if you run the salt at about 3400-3500 ppm since this will actually help your cell to last longer! Instead of adding salt every weel just bump your salt up and when it hits about 3000 bump it up again. Also, in case you haven't been keeping tabs on it your recommened CYA level is 60-80 ppm. Running a lower CYA level will create conditions that can shorten cell life, make pH very hard to maintain, and can lead to scaling conditions. For more info read this.

just to clarify on what Chemgeek said... using MPS does not allow you to run a lower FC residual but with continued use of MPS you might need less chlorine to achieve the same FC residual in the water.

Reserve and Renew are a two step bromine system, sodium bromide and oxidizer. Adding tabs makes it a three step bromine system and makes the bromine levels easier to maintain. Otherwise you tend to see the level shoot up when you oxidize and then drop quickly. the downside to two step systems.

If you mean MPS, the most common kind, no. If you mean sodium percarbonate, which is rare but used in certain circumstances, yes. Either kind will test as combined chlorine on testing unless special reagents to remove the interference are used, however.

FYI, You probably had some baqua residue left in the plumbing or filter and the chlorine oxidized it, normal occurance and it should not happen again.

If I am not mistaken the ONLY type of algaecide that can be used with a biguanide system is a linear quat. Metal based algaecides and polyquat are NOT compatible, as is ionizer systems or metal based liquid water sanitizers. Silver based algaecides are effective in chlorine bases systems but they are prone to staining and silver staining is impossible to remove!