dark rider

Easy solution... ask them to deduct $275 from your sales price. If they're serious about the sale, I'm sure you'll get it.

Piper, sorry to hear of the negative experience. What makes you think that it was more than an administrative oversight? The dealer has been around for quite some time, and they have pretty much exclusive rights to the Atlanta market (other than the Peachtree City dealer), who technically doesn't service Atlanta. I have no vested interest, other than the fact that I also ordered there and am about 4 weeks out from my order. I'm supposed to get my subpanel early this coming week, but no word on tub delivery yet. I'm assuming you put the down payment on a credit card? Why not have the dealer do a charge back or if they're slow to react, go directly to the credit card company?

If it wasn't worth it for him to hook the tub up and fill, then it definitely wasn't worth you buying it. If he was giving it away, that's another story...

Yes, the ACE hardware is easily diconnected, and HotSpring leaves the ozonator hardware in place to convert back to non-ACE at any time.. I would check that with your dealer. I just spoke to a HS Dealer and he told me that they remove the Ozonator when they install the ACE system. I think you will need to make a special request that they give it to you so that you can store it in the event you ever needed it. Just throwing it out there. OK, one of the techs here corrected me privately. The ACE equipped tubs ship with the Freshwater III ozonator factory installed. Apparently, it's the dealer who performs the ACE install and makes a decision on whether or not to leave the ozonator in place. My dealer showed me the entire layout on their factory tub and confirmed that mine would ship the same way. If it doesn't, I'll be sure to post and make a stink at the dealer. My guess is the dealer you spoke with pulls the Freshwater III CD unit and holds them to resell, since they sell for about $275 a pop, and likely won't see use on a ACE equipped tub. If the buyer is notified of the fact up front, than I wouldn't say it's a problem, but if they yank them and don't tell the buyer, I would say that it's deceptive. At the very least, they should be reinstalling them at no cost, if the buyer ever converts back. The ozonator is not an option on HotSpring tubs. It's the ACE that is the option, and it costs extra. They should be giving you the ozonator as well.

Definitely some good suggestions here. First, verifying your legal rights is never going to hurt you, regardless of how good your relationship is with your neighbors. You hate to have to rely on the law, but it may be there to protect you, if the relationship should sour. Second, definitely take them up on the offer to experience it from their bedroom with all of the pumps on. It may even be a good time to pick up a cheap decibel meter from Radio Shack and see how loud it actually is. Some people are more sensitive than others, but this will give you something quantifiable, and again, could be used for verifying legality. It also provides a baseline to measure against if you do decide to make some changes. Third, don't stress about it! It's a hot tub, meant for relaxation. Be courteous and show a genuine interest in trying to resolve their concerns. If they see you are neighborly and care that it is causing them concern, they will likely be more willing to work with you.

The water is noticeably softer and should be easier on the skin, bathing suits, and tub pillows due to lower CH, TA, and FC readings.

Yes, the ACE hardware is easily diconnected, and HotSpring leaves the ozonator hardware in place to convert back to non-ACE at any time..

Correct, ACE monitors salt levels only and tells you when to add salt. The chlorine dosage is based on the usage settings. You still need to take occasional readings and may need to make minor adjustments based on usage. However, with consistent usage, most report that there is no need to make regular adjustments. It also has a customizable boost setting for parties, and will revert back to normal after a set time.

My pricing for a 2010 Vanguard with an Uprite coverlifter,steps and delivery/installation (startup chems included) and ACE was under $9K in Atlanta. My dealer is a higher volume dealer, so I'm guessing he has lower margins per sale and shipping can very for the dealer, but you should be paying in the mid-$8K range (pre-tax) for a Vanguard without ACE. I paid $10,395 for a new Grandee with ACE and the other accessories (including the better Everwood steps). As Kenny indicated, the breaker box and cover are always included with HotSpring spas. Electrical installation is your expense though.

ACE was definitely purchased as a convenience thing for me, and had nothing to do with the chemical savings. However, if it proves reliable over even a modest 10 year life, I should break even based on my rough calculations. $500 buy in + one electrode replacement (every 5-7 years) for an additional $300 equals $800 total. Salt runs about $40 for a year, so factor in another $400 for a grand total of $1200 for 10 years or an average of $120 per year. Had I not gone with ACE, I wouldn't have run straight dichlor/bleach, but would have also used the N2 product, which alone sells for $120 a year! If the dichlor bleach costs about $80, I would be exactly at the break even point at 10 years, not counting the time and hassle of measuring, dosing, and testing more regularly. I should also have extended drains of 6-12 months, and softer/less irritating water. I'm by no means an expert when it comes to water testing/adjusting, but I probably have more experience than the average person. I spent about 7 years throughout high school and college as a lifeguard at a commercial facility that had both pools and hot tubs. Suffice it to say, it's been a number of years, but I would have no problems buying/using a Taylor test kit. That said, I also know how much of a hassle water chemistry can be when things get out of whack. All of our pools and tubs were on automated dosing systems (liquid chlorine) and it helped immensely! As long as it's not costing me an arm and a leg, which it isn't, I think ACE will exceed my expectations, and I'll be the first to chime in if the reality is different, after living with it for a while.

Ah, nothing liking some good hydro-shock therapy to relieve the stress of a long day In all seriousness, have a professional look at it. It's not worth risk your or anyone else's life over.

I would just load them in a plastic bag after washing, and you won't have to deal with the dripping at all. As to fitment and effectiveness of cleaning horizontally vs. vertically, I think most dishwashers would clean them better vertically, but if you have pot/pan sprayer jets in the back of your dishwasher, they could probably do just as well horizontally. I have a Kitchen Aid dishwasher with a HD food disposal built in. I don't pre-rinse or soak anything, and it does a heack of a job getting everything off and getting rid of food debris. I used to have a Bosche that was very highly rated, but was garbage in comparison. It relied on high temps to disolve food and had no food/garbage disposal, so it was always clogging, unless you pre-rinsed everything. The Kitchen Aid puts out more pressure and I would never again buy a dishwasher without the built-in food disposal! The moral of the story... the dishwasher method will only likely be as effective as your dishwasher. For me, I've got plenty of room to fit in 5 vertically or horizontally, so no worries.

It didn't cost me $1K, more like $500, but I opted to get the ACE on the Grandee I ordered. I'm about 2 weeks out from delivery. The hardware costs should more than pay for themselves in chemical savings over the tub's usable life.

If you haven't figured it out by now, I'll let the cat out of the bag... the spa market is very competitive! Some dealers will tell you whatever they need to when trying to make a sale. It's a shame really... Especially since, ALL spas use a combination of flexible tubing and rigid PVC plumbing, and are susceptable to leaks over time. Typically, if the joints are done well, the plumbing is supported by full foam, and wet lines are not subject to freezing temperatures, leaks will be far less likely. If anything, I would say HotSpring has one of the best warranties in the business, and a reputation for standing behind its consumers. A full foam tub is going to be tougher to work on if there are leaks outside of the equipment bay, but leaks can be serviced on sight or at the dealer. I'll defer to the techs, but I've never heard of a tub needing to be shipped back to the manufacturer for a leak! All a sealed bottom is going to do in a full foam spa is trap any leaked water from escaping. There really isn't much space at all left vacant in the bulk of the cabinet. The only place that could really house a rodent is the equipment bay, which is separated from the rest of the tub, because all components are centrally located directly beneath the main topside control panel. This bay has a separate plastic tub, which could be penetrated, but it's unlikely. From a design perspective, I asked to see the innards of basically all of the tubs I wet tested, and would recommend that you do the same. I found HotSpring to be the most impressive. They took great care to make the main equipment bay easily accesible, and isolate the electrical components from possible water leaks. Some manufacturers have their heaters right on top of their electrical components, while pumps are scattered around corners, etc. Pretty lame arguments the salesperson came up with as reasons not to go with HotSpring IMO!

My .02 FWIW... The Tri-X filters don't hold water as much as the cloth/paper ones, so you don't get as much dripping, but I can understand the argument. Personally, I wouldn't recommend putting anything but the Tri-X in the dishwasher though, as it may tear and typically won't be rigid enough for the pleats not to trap debris... With 5 filters in the larger HotSpring models, I'd hate to have to clean the filters pleat by pleat, and there's no way it would be faster than a 15-20 min rinse cycle! However, if you have a single filter, the swap method is definitely the way to go. While I understand it's not appetizing to think about, the dead skin cells, oils ,etc. probably pose less risk overall than the leftover food that may be rotting in your dishwasher. That's what the sanitize cycle is for anyway! I run it every so often just to kill off what can't be seen.

I have no familiarity with Dynasty, but a quick search turned in several hits, including this one: http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=25469&st=0&p=110784&hl=dynasty&fromsearch=1entry110784 Based on that, they seem to use middle of the road components with more of a focus on show than go (performance/reliability). You seem to have a fancy for the bling, so that may appeal to you, but don't make any purchase decisions without wet testing first! It's not going to matter how nice the extras are if you don't like the jets and/or seating.

$10K buys you a LOT of hot tub! Heck, that's typically pretty close to most manufacturers top of the line. Any of the major players, including HotSpring, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1, Caldera, Marquis, etc. is going to have tubs for less than $10K. In fact, their lower tier lines will probably start in that $5K - $6K range as well, but you will make some sacrifices in jets (type and number), pumps (number, HP, and 24h circ.), size/seats, maintenance features (Tri-X filters, ACE saltwater, ozone etc.), and aesthetic options (water features, lights, sound, etc.). The off-brand tubs make you think you're getting more for the money by inflating their pump ratings, adding useless euro jets (some only use euro jets ), relying on one of the main pumps rather than a separate 24h circ pump for filter cycles, using significant bypass filtration (# of bottom suction fittings is a tell-tale sign) to get more power, use lower quality components/controllers/heaters, and typically will have nowhere near the dealer support of a major manufacturer who has been in the business for a longer time. In fact, I'd take it one step further, and say the dealer is as important as the manufacturer, since they will be the one to honor warranty support! Take the time to do the research, and shop/wet test everything that is a local commute to you. I think you will be glad you did.

Hotsprung, if they are the Tri-X filters, they are designed to be washed in the dishwasher on the rinse cycle/no heat dry. The end caps were designed not to catch the debris, and the ceramic mesh maintains its shape better and can handle the pressure without tearing better than the tranditional fabric filters.

The filters are supposed to be cleaned monthly, but with the Tri-X, you can run them in the dishwasher on the rinse only cycle, and they come out supposedly looking like new, which should make even 5 filters relatively painless. The electrodes are cleaned once every 3 months, so it wouldn't be every filter wash, but rather every 3rd. The system might actually have a timer to remind you. I seem to recall that it does. When I started researching spa saltwater systems a few months back, I was shocked that there weren't more on the market. I figured with the pool boom several years ago, that most manufacturers would at least offer it as an option. Than I started reading up on the drawbacks and problems with the few existing spa saltwater systems that were out and the low water volume, high temp, chemical balance swings that made it difficult to do well. From what I've seen of ACE, even if it falls short of the marketing claims involving the diamond electrode, HotSpring does seem to have overcome the problems that most of the other manufacturers are struggling with regarding appropriate water balance. After the initial fill and balance, he said he has not had any problems with the pH rising, which seems to be a common problem in saltwater systems. It's funny. My dealer said he was a skeptic when the first demo tub hit their showroom. He had his folks testing it daily to ensure appropriate balance and settings. After the first month or so, he backed off to weekly testing, and now he is testing it monthly, per the HotSpring recommendation. I think that's probably a bit lax for my standards, but if his water is still testing normal after 9 months now on the same fill, it must be working!

My dealer opened the equipment bay up on one of the ACE models, since I had a lot of questions, and one thing I can verify is that HotSpring does in fact disconnect the Corona Discharge Ozonator in ACE models due to the claimed production of ozone by the ACE system. They leave the components in place, in case you would ever want to convert back, but do not recommend running the ozonator with ACE installed.

They give you an empty bottle to measure out the ratio of water to pH down, since it's a dilluted mixture, and the soak interval is 10 mins every 3 months. They recommend doing when cleaning your filters.

Agreed, I have a feeling it's about to get interesting! I'll try to answer some of your questions, since they mirrored many of my own... You have to balance after every fill, but with extended drain intervals, this will likely be half as often (6-12 months versus 3-6 months). I think the targets are a bit different from the norms as well, since after use of the Calcium remover (Vanishing Act), you will have very low Calcium Hardness levels. I believe TA is kept on the lower side of normal as well to prevent scaling. The system does not monitor chlorine, but does monitor the amount of salt remaining and notify the user when more salt needs to be added. Basically, as you suggested, it has settings based on both tub size and frequency of use, so once you have your frequency down based on testing, you should only need to deviate when usage changes. It has a boost mode for parties, or you can change the setting up or down, for extended high or low use periods. It doesn't eliminate the need to test, especially initially, but you shouldn't have to test nearly as often once you've got your usage patterns down. The electrodes will need to be replaced at some point, but my dealer seems to think they will last 5-7 years or more based on what he's seen. I think it ran about $300 to replace all three. The warranty is for 3 years and should cover the replacement any of the components, including the electrodes, if they fail during the warranty, provided the required maintenance was done (soaking them in the PH down water solution).

The jet body most likely passes through the shell and attaches from the back side, so the only way to get at it would be to dig through the foam in the cabinet. If it's just the jet face, than it should just thread into the jet body, and should be a simple matter of unscrewing it.

I'm certainly not a science guy, so I'll leave the chemistry debate up to you all. My primary concern is whether or not the ACE saltwater system will prove to be a reliable, low maintenance system that prevents the need to handle/store/measure harsh chemicals on a regular basis. If it can do that while maintaining effective sanintation levels with softer water and also promote extended drain intervals, than it will be more than worthwhile IMO. Sure there are other systems out there for hot tubs, but I like the fact that HotSpring didn't rush the ACE system to the market. If they were willing to test it for 3 years without even hinting to most of their dealer network that it was in existance, I have to be hopeful that they took the time to get it right. I'll know soon enough, as I should be taking delivery in a couple of weeks!

It's pretty common that you can adjust the flow by turning the individual jet faces. HotSpring and the majority of other vendors that I wet tested all do this. Additionally, some of the other brands use more diverters, which allow you adjust or turn off whole series of jets or seats on the fly. It's a quick way to gain more power elsewhere or conserve energy for seats not in use.