Heater Not Working On 95' Hotspring Grandee

[AMG]

I purchased a home a few months ago and the original owner had installed a HotSpring (by Watkins) "Grandee" from 1995. The previous owner didn't have it and it was empty.

I went to the local HotSpring dealer and purchased new filters and all the chemicals I need. I scrubbed the spa clean, cleaned out the pump/electrical compartment. Every time I tried to start up the spa, I would trip the breaker. It turns out my Circ Pump (Silentflo 5002) was bad. I replaced it today and everything fires up fine; other than the heater.

When I turn the heater on from the control panel, I hear the relay "click", but nothing happens. I touch the large tube (a "No Fault" 5500 Cartridge heater) and it never gets warm. I ran it for 10-15 minutes and never felt any heat.

So is my heater bad? How can I test it? Maybe it's the thermistors? How can I check these (do I need to use my volt meter)? Maybe it's something in my electrical control box? I really would love to know how I can narrow this down.

I am wondering also what order the thermistors and flow control sensors plug in to the control box? Maybe someone plugged them in incorrectly before? Could that be the problem? ANY help is appreciated!

If I had to replace my heater, would this be the way you would recommend to go?

2009 No-Fault PDF Titanium Heater - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=73790

- Free Thermistor Plugs in to side of control box (38416)

- Free Flow Control Thermistor plugs in to side of control box (38415)

Heater Adapter Kit - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71557

Heater Cord Adapter (Mine currently plugs in) - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71537

I wonder how difficult this would all be to install? I put in the circ pump and replaced the vinyl tubing (which was yellowed and hard with new tubing today). I don't know a lot about spa's, but I am technical. I've replaced toilets, garbage disposals, faucets, lighting, etc.

[woodro801]

I purchased a home a few months ago and the original owner had installed a HotSpring (by Watkins) "Grandee" from 1995. The previous owner didn't have it and it was empty.

I went to the local HotSpring dealer and purchased new filters and all the chemicals I need. I scrubbed the spa clean, cleaned out the pump/electrical compartment. Every time I tried to start up the spa, I would trip the breaker. It turns out my Circ Pump (Silentflo 5002) was bad. I replaced it today and everything fires up fine; other than the heater.

When I turn the heater on from the control panel, I hear the relay "click", but nothing happens. I touch the large tube (a "No Fault" 5500 Cartridge heater) and it never gets warm. I ran it for 10-15 minutes and never felt any heat.

So is my heater bad? How can I test it? Maybe it's the thermistors? How can I check these (do I need to use my volt meter)? Maybe it's something in my electrical control box? I really would love to know how I can narrow this down.

I am wondering also what order the thermistors and flow control sensors plug in to the control box? Maybe someone plugged them in incorrectly before? Could that be the problem? ANY help is appreciated!

If I had to replace my heater, would this be the way you would recommend to go?

2009 No-Fault PDF Titanium Heater - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=73790

- Free Thermistor Plugs in to side of control box (38416)

- Free Flow Control Thermistor plugs in to side of control box (38415)

Heater Adapter Kit - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71557

Heater Cord Adapter (Mine currently plugs in) - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71537

I wonder how difficult this would all be to install? I put in the circ pump and replaced the vinyl tubing (which was yellowed and hard with new tubing today). I don't know a lot about spa's, but I am technical. I've replaced toilets, garbage disposals, faucets, lighting, etc.

You are right on with the parts you need..( I am a Watkins spa tech)

The heater you want to get is part number 73790 (watkins part number), you will also need the heater retro fit kit, and cord adapter to go along with it. You will need to drain the tub and the kit should have the fittings. The thermistors are differant sizes and they will match up to the ports on the new heater. I hope this helps... Mike p.s. you can test the heater by stripping back the insulation on the heater cord, putting an amp clamp around either the white or the black wire and the heater should be pulling approx. 24-26 amps....The thermistors will only plug in one way.

[AMG]

I checked that when I turn heat ON, that the plug then goes from 0.F to 120V (or in that area). So that portion seems good.

I checked that I can get continuity on the flow, high and low. I don't know if this is an adequate test for these thermistors to simply plug in to black/red and check.

[woodro801]

I checked that when I turn heat ON, that the plug then goes from 0.F to 120V (or in that area). So that portion seems good.

I checked that I can get continuity on the flow, high and low. I don't know if this is an adequate test for these thermistors to simply plug in to black/red and check.

An adequate test for the thermistors is a resitance test...The resistance rating however is determined by the temp of your water. I do have a chart we use so put your meter on 20k, then get your ohm reading...If you like take note of both water temp and the resistance reading i can tell you if they are bad..An amp draw test is almost a sure way to know if your heaters bad however you need to know if your t-stats of thermistors are good so check them first and let me know.

set meter on on 20k under ohms

place your leads inside the white connecter of the thermistor

then check temp of water

do this for the hi limit and the control sensor

you can bypass the pressure switch to make sure its good (h.s. dealer should have a bypass jumper)

Let me know...Mike

[Peteyboy]

I checked that when I turn heat ON, that the plug then goes from 0.F to 120V (or in that area). So that portion seems good.

I checked that I can get continuity on the flow, high and low. I don't know if this is an adequate test for these thermistors to simply plug in to black/red and check.

With the Grandee you should get 240 volts across the 2 round holes at the heater receptacle. If only 120 volts check the 30 amp breaker to see if it's sending 240 to the spa.

[AMG]

I purchased (online, should be here Friday or Monday) the 2009 No-Fault PDF Titanium heater, Thermistor plugs and Flow Thermistor, s well as the HEater Adapter kit.

2009 No-Fault PDF Titanium Heater - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=73790

- Free Thermistor Plugs in to side of control box (38416)

- Free Flow Control Thermistor plugs in to side of control box (38415)

Heater Adapter Kit - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71557

Heater Cord Adapter (Mine currently plugs in) - http://www.backyardplus.com/proddetail.php?prod=71537

So my question is............

How difficult of an installation is this heater? It seems easy enough. I installed my Circ pump and that was a piece of cake. With the adapter kit, I should have all I need, right? Thanks for the assistance.

[AMG]

New PDF no fault heater installed.

Re-did the plumbing because the heater is different of course. Circ pump works perfectly. Pump never gets hot. I hear the relay click when I turn on the heater. I don't suppose my little volt meter can read the amperage draw on this thing... I may have to buy a better one than this micro one from Radio shack.

Should the heater pipes (there is an in/out on the heater) get warm pretty quickly? if I let it run for 5 minutes and then touch the vinyl tubing on the Out part (that goes up to the spa) should it be warm? I would think so

So hypopthetically if the heater is new, the circ pump is new and it still isn't heating, but I hear the relay kicking over and the circ pump goes to high mode (I can hear/feel it getting faster), then why wouldn't it heat up? The thermistors cannot go in the wrong spots as they are setup with male/female pins that are reversed. The flow jumper I got is blue/red and since my spa is hard wired with a 30a breaker, I am pretty certain I am 230v, right? so I used the blue. Any ideas?? Thanks!!!

::::: EDIT :::::

the heater was running for a minute or two and then i went inside figuring i would let it run for 30-45 minutes. I came out 10 minutes later and the breaker was tripped. why would this happen? can you give me some places I can check? is it something inside the control board? a relay? a resister, something? this is difficult to diagnose for me

I have a really tiny little volt meter that I used a minute ago. I disconnected the connectors for the heater from the cable (they are those weather resistant plugs that connect together (and were heat shrink shielded until a few minutes ago) and my meter on the "V" setting read 1.22 (I interpet as 120v)? Very strange. The heater itself says 240V on it. I checked my old heater (the original from 1995) and that read 240V engraved on the side. So I'll get a new and better meter tomorrow morning and check again. I am not certain how to check amperage draw of the heater though. If I turn it on to 1, then 4, then 9, i should see a difference. I'll have to learn how to use the volt meter... I need to buy one that can handle 30 amps, right? Some cheaper ones may burn out?

[Peteyboy]

You say it's hardwired with a 30 amp breaker - does it have 2 breakers, a 30 amp GFI & a 20 amp GFI? The 30 amp runs the heater.

You should get 240 volts across the two heater leads, 120 from either one to ground. If you don't have the 240 across then check it at the breaker.

[AMG]

You say it's hardwired with a 30 amp breaker - does it have 2 breakers, a 30 amp GFI & a 20 amp GFI? The 30 amp runs the heater.

You should get 240 volts across the two heater leads, 120 from either one to ground. If you don't have the 240 across then check it at the breaker.

Yes I have a 20A GFI breaker for the spa and a 30A GFI breaker for the heater only. It was originally installed by Hot Spring of Escondido. When I checked the voltage, I only checked with my black lead on the green (ground) and my red lead on the black (hot). Maybe the other 120V came from the white? I wasn't sure how to check both at the same time... Maybe I put my lead across both wires and the black lead only to the green wire? I am going to buy a better volt meter anyhow, I'll check it when I get home today. Please let me know what is appropriate.

I wonder why this damn thing aint working

[Peteyboy]

Check with one lead to ground and one to black - 120V, then one on ground and one on white - 120V, then test on the black & white - 240V.

[AMG]

Check with one lead to ground and one to black - 120V, then one on ground and one on white - 120V, then test on the black & white - 240V.

Peteyboy, you've been a great help, I really appreciate you donating your time on this forum and to me.

So I took off my wrap job over where I spliced the plug to the PDR heater. I held each wire far apart and used my new $90 clamp volt meter to check amp draw. 23.2 on the white and 22.9 on the black. Before I did that I checked perfect continuity on the plug and I checked Ohm's on the unit and it was like 9.2... Then I hooked it up and ran the volt check first (on just the plug with the heater on. 120v per pole, perfect 240. Then I proceeded with the amp check.

So I then put my hand around the second big metal pole on the heater and if i held my hand there for like 4-5 seconds it would eventually get pretty hot on my hand. But if you quickly touch it, it feels ice cold. So I checked the spa and the heat comes out of the bottom drain piece. It is not a ton of water coming out of there, just feels like warm water with my hand about 3-4" away from it. It isn't like a jet powering the water out fast. I ran the heater for 30 minutes, no tripping. Maybe it was grounding out somehow and tripping cause of that? I am going to do a really good job of sealing each connector with heat shrink, then shrinking the hole group of them, then electrical tape off around the end of the heat shrink just so no moisture can get in. I'll make it really sealed and no chance to ground.

So I am wondering...

1. Should the PDR heater be hot to the touch on the metal poles/rods?

2. The heat only comes out of the floor piece with the little tiny holes in it? How much should be coming out of it? It is a new circ pump too. I hear it go in to a faster hum when the heater relay turns on.

3. My jacuzzi was 66 degrees, I suppose the water going through the heater may not get 100 degrees because you're starting with really cold water?

4. I don't have a cover yet. I ordered a new one from Watsons about 8 days ago, it should be here mid week. I know its most efficient heating it with the cover on and then removing it when it's where you want it. Should it be able to heat though to 100+ with no cover on at all? It will take longer I assume? How long are we talking? (it's 65 out now, and 66 in the spa).

Does it sound like it's working as intended? I wish I had something to base this on. I never saw the spa actually working ever

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

Check with one lead to ground and one to black - 120V, then one on ground and one on white - 120V, then test on the black & white - 240V.

Peteyboy, you've been a great help, I really appreciate you donating your time on this forum and to me.

So I took off my wrap job over where I spliced the plug to the PDR heater. I held each wire far apart and used my new $90 clamp volt meter to check amp draw. 23.2 on the white and 22.9 on the black. Before I did that I checked perfect continuity on the plug and I checked Ohm's on the unit and it was like 9.2... Then I hooked it up and ran the volt check first (on just the plug with the heater on. 120v per pole, perfect 240. Then I proceeded with the amp check.

So I then put my hand around the second big metal pole on the heater and if i held my hand there for like 4-5 seconds it would eventually get pretty hot on my hand. But if you quickly touch it, it feels ice cold. So I checked the spa and the heat comes out of the bottom drain piece. It is not a ton of water coming out of there, just feels like warm water with my hand about 3-4" away from it. It isn't like a jet powering the water out fast. I ran the heater for 30 minutes, no tripping. Maybe it was grounding out somehow and tripping cause of that? I am going to do a really good job of sealing each connector with heat shrink, then shrinking the hole group of them, then electrical tape off around the end of the heat shrink just so no moisture can get in. I'll make it really sealed and no chance to ground.

So I am wondering...

1. Should the PDR heater be hot to the touch on the metal poles/rods?

2. The heat only comes out of the floor piece with the little tiny holes in it? How much should be coming out of it? It is a new circ pump too. I hear it go in to a faster hum when the heater relay turns on.

3. My jacuzzi was 66 degrees, I suppose the water going through the heater may not get 100 degrees because you're starting with really cold water?

4. I don't have a cover yet. I ordered a new one from Watsons about 8 days ago, it should be here mid week. I know its most efficient heating it with the cover on and then removing it when it's where you want it. Should it be able to heat though to 100+ with no cover on at all? It will take longer I assume? How long are we talking? (it's 65 out now, and 66 in the spa).

Does it sound like it's working as intended? I wish I had something to base this on. I never saw the spa actually working ever

23 amp means you are heating.....just let it go and it will get hot.

[AMG]

23 amp means you are heating.....just let it go and it will get hot.

Thank you. If you wouldn't mind though, could you answer my questions if you know the answers? I'd like to know, it brings me some peace of mind, you know?

[hottubdan]

23 amp means you are heating.....just let it go and it will get hot.

Thank you. If you wouldn't mind though, could you answer my questions if you know the answers? I'd like to know, it brings me some peace of mind, you know?

The hot water only comes in through the floor drain. It should feel warmer than the ambient water. Without a cover it is going to take a long time to heat. Maybe Watsons has a loaner cover.

[AMG]

23 amp means you are heating.....just let it go and it will get hot.

Thank you. If you wouldn't mind though, could you answer my questions if you know the answers? I'd like to know, it brings me some peace of mind, you know?

The hot water only comes in through the floor drain. It should feel warmer than the ambient water. Without a cover it is going to take a long time to heat. Maybe Watsons has a loaner cover.

so I'm pretty certain it was working fine.

So I guess I need some spa 101 advice. can either of you send me somewhere for a page that gives me all the 411? I spoke to my local place and they gave me the info on the chemicals and such, but standard stuff I don't know. Like, should the spa be set hot all the time 24/7? I'm used to people with in-ground heaters that can have the spa be freezing cold, set it to be Hot and then 45 minutes or less later it's hot. I know those heaters are totally different though, then they lose the heat really fast. So 365 days a year should it be set at like 85 degrees and then when i want to use it, i can set it higher so it gets in the high 90's and such? Is that going to cost me a grip of $ to have that heater on 24/7? What do most people do? Thanks!

The cover should be in Monday or Tuesday. I am just going to wait to heat it until the cover comes in and is on. Thanks for the info and suggestions

[Peteyboy]

Keep it set for what you want. Those spas are very efficient anyway and it becomes a fad if you have to wait for it to heat up. "honey lets use the spa - oh crap we have to wait for it to heat - screw it let's drink instead".

[justme]

Hi I just got the exact tub you have and having trouble finding a wiring diagram could you take a pic of your wires going in and send it to me please? thanks for your time

[email protected]

thanks again Bryan

[Peteyboy]

Hi I just got the exact tub you have and having trouble finding a wiring diagram could you take a pic of your wires going in and send it to me please? thanks for your time

[email protected]

thanks again Bryan

If it's the main electrical wiring here is what you need:

A sub-panel within sight but 5 feet away from the spa. This sub-panel will have 2 GFI breakers a 2 pole 20 amp and a 2 pole 30 amp. 2 #12 hot wires from the 20 amp go to the 2 thinner wires from the spa (red, black or blue). A #12 white neutral directly from the 20 amp breaker to the white from the spa. 2 #10 hot wires from the 30 amp to the 2 thicker wires from the spa (red, black or blue). And a #10 green ground to the terminal on the spa where the other wires are.

[justme]

Hi I just got the exact tub you have and having trouble finding a wiring diagram could you take a pic of your wires going in and send it to me please? thanks for your time

[email protected]

thanks again Bryan

If it's the main electrical wiring here is what you need:

A sub-panel within sight but 5 feet away from the spa. This sub-panel will have 2 GFI breakers a 2 pole 20 amp and a 2 pole 30 amp. 2 #12 hot wires from the 20 amp go to the 2 thinner wires from the spa (red, black or blue). A #12 white neutral directly from the 20 amp breaker to the white from the spa. 2 #10 hot wires from the 30 amp to the 2 thicker wires from the spa (red, black or blue). And a #10 green ground to the terminal on the spa where the other wires are.

so it has 2 220v 2 pole breakers run to it ok thats no problem it must have some kind of break internal to use 120v for the circulator pump. I will pick up that box tuesday when everything is open again thanks for the help Pete

Bryan

[Arrtus]

To check out your heating element disconnect the heater from the unit and use a multimeter and test for continuity

if the your meter beeps or goes to 0 (make sure your on continuity test) that means your heat element is good.

Just make sure you are testing the element by its self, nothing should be hooked up to the leads on the element.

If you get continuity on yer meter then you know the heating element is still good and that you will

need to troubleshoot further. I know its a pain in the ass (draining water etc..) but at least this way

you will know for sure the heating element is bad or good. Good luck with yer quest......