Cleanwater Blue Chemicals?

[abhianu]

Hi All,

I am just getting started with a SPA and don't know much.

I found CleanWater Blue chemicals but don't know how they are. http://www.spadepot.com/Merchant2/merchant...egory_Code=Kits

Any comments/suggestions?

Seems like there are tons of chemicals available and every website says theirs is the best. Will appreciate if you have any suggestion for other chemicals.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[quizkid22]

From a first hand newbie experience myself...don't get sucked in like I did with that stuff....hopefully waterbear will reply to you about care as he did for me....but stay away from clean water blue and listen to whatever waterbear tells you !!!! I'm too new and still learning myself to give any advice right now except to stay away from that stuff......

Hi All,

I am just getting started with a SPA and don't know much.

I found CleanWater Blue chemicals but don't know how they are. http://www.spadepot.com/Merchant2/merchant...egory_Code=Kits

Any comments/suggestions?

Seems like there are tons of chemicals available and every website says theirs is the best. Will appreciate if you have any suggestion for other chemicals.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[spababe]

Hi All,

I am just getting started with a SPA and don't know much.

I found CleanWater Blue chemicals but don't know how they are. http://www.spadepot.com/Merchant2/merchant...egory_Code=Kits

Any comments/suggestions?

Seems like there are tons of chemicals available and every website says theirs is the best. Will appreciate if you have any suggestion for other chemicals.

Thanks for your help in advance.

I have been using Aquafinesse in my tub...which is chlorine/bromine free. Just a measured cupful in each week. It does apparently contain a sanitiser. I also use the ozonater each day. Clean filters each week. However, in the kit is also supplied a chlorine tablet + dispenser to put in the filter basket. There is no testing whatsoever required. The method is simplicity itself. Perfect clean, nice smelling clear soft water. This may sound as though I am trying to sell the stuff, I truly am not, I had 6mths supply with my new tub. 3mths on and I can't fault it and so I can't understand why more owners don't use it. Is there a reason that I don't know about.

[waterbear]

I have been using Aquafinesse in my tub...which is chlorine/bromine free. Just a measured cupful in each week. It does apparently contain a sanitiser. I also use the ozonater each day. Clean filters each week. However, in the kit is also supplied a chlorine tablet + dispenser to put in the filter basket. There is no testing whatsoever required. The method is simplicity itself. Perfect clean, nice smelling clear soft water. This may sound as though I am trying to sell the stuff, I truly am not, I had 6mths supply with my new tub. 3mths on and I can't fault it and so I can't understand why more owners don't use it. Is there a reason that I don't know about.

Acccording to their website the product needs to be used with an ionizer, ozonater and/or chlorine (all santizers). They even supply chlorine with their system so their claim of chlorine free is dubious at best! It is obviously not an EPA approved sanitizer since they include chlorine with it. I suspect it is an enzyme based product since they say not to use it within 6 hours of shocking and that is pretty standard for enzymes. Enzymes help digest organics in the water but they are not sanitizers. They can be useful products to use in conjunction with a standard sanitizing system to help reduce sanitizer demand but are not necessary for easy spa maintinance. I could find no MSDS nor ingredient listing for the product.

[spababe]

Acccording to their website the product needs to be used with an ionizer, ozonater and/or chlorine (all santizers). They even supply chlorine with their system so their claim of chlorine free is dubious at best! It is obviously not an EPA approved sanitizer since they include chlorine with it. I suspect it is an enzyme based product since they say not to use it within 6 hours of shocking and that is pretty standard for enzymes. Enzymes help digest organics in the water but they are not sanitizers. They can be useful products to use in conjunction with a standard sanitizing system to help reduce sanitizer demand but are not necessary for easy spa maintinance. I could find no MSDS nor ingredient listing for the product.

There is nothing in my instruction leaflet that says anything to suggest shocking It says to put in once a week a measured 22ml [correct amount for my tub] and you can use tub straightaway, which i have done. The chlorine tablet goes into dispenser in filter to feed the filter. The product seems well researched and myself/family/friends have had no adverse reactions ie rash, bugs or anything. My point really is that the simplicity of the product seems to be a winner because you don't need to do any readings or checking whatsoever. I have read so much about the problems that some owners have ie too much chlorine....too little etc. etc. and as a new tub owner, I have escaped all these problems. The first 3mths with this water is nearly up and the water has been crystal clear all the time with a lovely lavender smell. I have yet to see any disadvantage in it except of course it is more expensive, but surely it's worth it to be hassle free.

[jinveninato]

We've been using the Cleanwater Blue system for a year. We find it far easier to use, far more reliable, and by far less expensive than chlorine systems. We used a well known chlorine system for a year and were very dissatisfied with the odor, dry skin, etc.

The start up Cleanwater Blue System cost $74.00...and it had everything necessary to maintain our spa water for 10 months! We have a 170gal Spa, so yours may cost a bit more.

There's no ring and the water smells clean.

It is a pleasure to only check the spa's sanitizer/TA/Ph levels bi-weekly, as is recommended by Cleanwater Blue.

KIT INCLUDES:

Cleanwater Blue Bactericide/Algicide

Cleanwater Prep

Cleanwater Purge

Oxy Spa, 2 lbs. non-chlorine monopersulfate (MPS) for regular shocking.

ZorbO - Earth-friendly oil scum absorber.

Alkalinity Increaser

pH Decrease

Sea Klear Natural Clarifier

Copper 3-way Test Strips - for testing copper ion level, plus pH & TA. Enough for about a year's testing.

Dichlor Granular, 1 lb. - for startup and occasional shocking as needed.

Measuring Cups - for accurate dosages, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Quick-Start Instruction Guide -easy step-by-step instructions to get you started, inside each Cleanwater product box.

Really, this is an easy to use system that is reliable. I can lift the cover and not be dissapointed by cloudy water!

Hope this helps!

[chem geek]

[EDIT] I finally found some scientific literature that backs up the Nature2 "low chlorine recipe" that uses Nature2 silver ions with MPS here. The following was written before I found such scientific literature. [END-EDIT]

The website (from the link in the first post) indicates that "the active ingredient of Cleanwater Blue is copper ions." They presumably enhance the effectiveness with a molecule that is negatively charged that attracts the copper. I'm not sure how this enhances the effectiveness except possibly to keep the copper from accumulating on some other negatively charged surface (i.e. it may help keep the copper floating more in the main body of water so it can attach to bacteria).

The main problem with bacteria in a hot tub is with the bacteria Pseudomonas aeruginosa that causes hot tub itch. This is not an easy bacteria to kill (like E. coli, for example). I tried to look up specific information about this and came up with this link that refers to how copper PLUS chlorine is more effective than either alone. So I would not use this system without also having at least some chlorine. Of course, not every hot tub gets the bacteria that causes hot tub itch (there is no spontanous generation so the bacteria has to come from somewhere initially) and many people use Dichlor only in hot tubs and end up getting hot tub itch because they don't realize how the CYA in Dichlor reduces chlorine's effectiveness.

In general, no copper or silver or copper/silver combination system should be used by itself without at least some additional conventional sanitizer (usually chlorine) though the amount of chlorine can be less when using the metals in conjunction.

[jinveninato]

Hi Again,

I didn't want to cause any bad feelings for those folks who are happy with Chlorine, etc., products I just wanted to set the record straight that I've been using the system for a year. Cleanwater Blue is a safe, easy to use, reliable system that also reasonably priced.

I'd like to supply the following websites to help understand the Cleanwater Blue system:

EPA certification: Shows product is certified for purification use for drinking water. MSDS sheet also available here.

http://www.earthsciencelabs.com/earthtec/technical.htm

The instruction sheet:

http://www.spadepot.com/docs/Cleanwater-Blue.pdf

Gotta run.......work, work, work!

[chem geek]

You will notice that in the Cleanwater Blue system it requires the use of chlorine (in the form of Dichlor) at least initially in addition to its use of copper ions. The EPA registration simply means that it can be used as a disinfectant. It does not mean that copper alone is as effective as copper with a small amount of chlorine and typically chlorine amounts are reduced by up to 80%, but are generally not suggested to be eliminated. Copper doesn't break down organics which is why the Cleanwater Blue system requires regular use of a non-chlorine shock (typically potassium monopersulfate).

I'm not going to bore you with all of the violations of EPA rules by a variety of manufacturers (you can look up Zodiac and others, if you wish), but the EPA requires that copper (and silver) disinfectants for swimming pools still have some residual chlorine (actually, the requirement is that it kill a certain amount of pathogens in a certain amount of time and that generally requires chlorine as copper alone isn't fast enough). Cleanwater Blue technically met that by saying they use Dichlor, but they cheated because the chlorine is not maintained after initial dosage. They probably ran their certification tests after initial dosing, not after many days or a month when the chlorine is long gone. You shouldn't need to use very much chlorine at all, but using none at all is not what the EPA intended.

The bottom line is that you are happy with it, but not everyone has had good experiences. Just don't take the manufacturer's referral to EPA certfication as meaning anything more than it is.

[waterbear]

Chem geek,

check out this thread

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry19498

I essentially told him the same thing and also pointed out that there is a big difference in drinking water sanitation and pool/spa sanitation and that contact time is a major factor!

[RedOregon]

Chem geek,

check out this thread

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...amp;#entry19498

I essentially told him the same thing and also pointed out that there is a big difference in drinking water sanitation and pool/spa sanitation and that contact time is a major factor!

My experience:

My wife is *extremely* sensitive to strong smells... even had to close a business down once and move to an outdoor flea market because there was something in the building that irritated her throat so bad she couldn't breathe. Owners, customers, and I couldn't smell anything, but it shut her down.

We got a tub and I didn't even think about chlorine, knew she wouldn't be able to take it. We went with bromine/bromide/whatever it is, and she could take it for 15 minutes tops as long as she didn't breathe in deep... *if* everything was in perfect balance.

Did some research on the net, and went with Cleanwater... she loves it! We can spend as much time in the tub now as we want. We used to get out as soon as the 15 minute cycle stopped, but now we'll often sit in the nice quiet tub for another bit of time, just relaxing and looking at the stars. Smell *never* bothers her now, which makes me a happy camper.

Never any discoloration, algae, or anything of the like. Maintenance every two weeks... drain and clean every few months.. life is good. I can *highly* recommend this stuff, and no, I don't work for them, get any kickbacks, etc., etc.

[waterbear]

water can look clear but still harbor many pathogens. It 's your tub and your choice but if you come down with an water borne illness you can't say you haven't been warned! If you wife truely cannot handle bromine and chlorine then your only other EPA approved sanitizer (with an EPA registration number for SPA use which is a whole different game than drinking water sanitation) would be a biguanide system like SoftSoak or BaquaSpa. Biguanides have thier own set of problems which is why I don't really recommened them but for some people it is really their only alternative.

The thing I find a bit strange about your post is that you went with bromine over chlorine. Bromine has a MUCH stronger smell than chlorine does!

[Private Shrink]

water can look clear but still harbor many pathogens. It 's your tub and your choice but if you come down with an water borne illness you can't say you haven't been warned! If you wife truely cannot handle bromine and chlorine then your only other EPA approved sanitizer (with an EPA registration number for SPA use which is a whole different game than drinking water sanitation) would be a biguanide system like SoftSoak or BaquaSpa. Biguanides have thier own set of problems which is why I don't really recommened them but for some people it is really their only alternative.

The thing I find a bit strange about your post is that you went with bromine over chlorine. Bromine has a MUCH stronger smell than chlorine does!

With all due respect, it seems as if you and chem geek are the ones with rigid thinking. Anytime anyone is using something other than chlorine or Bromine based systems, your answer is "you may think it's leaving your water good, but dangers abound. It's deteriorating your tub, or poisoning you." Maybe some of these other approaches work well if done properly.

[chem geek]

There is a spectrum of disinfection capability, but any metal ion system without a supplemental fast-acting sanitizer (chlorine, bromine, biguanide) is going to take longer to kill pathogens. This is scientific fact borne out by multiple studies. It does not mean that metal ions do not kill pathogens, but that they do not do so quickly. So they are fine for preventing uncontrolled reproductive growth but they do not kill pathogens fast enough to prevent transmission from one person to another (typically via the fecal to oral route). Chlorine kills 99% of most bacteria within 1 minute (for 4 ppm FC, 20 ppm CYA). Even pure colloidal silver in nanospheres won't kill bacteria faster than around 6 minutes -- more typical times for metal ion kill rates are 30 minutes to an hour. Keep in mind that bacteria generation (doubling) rates in ideal conditions are of the order of 15 minutes to an hour.

Generally, in a commercial or public pool or spa situation, this would be deemed unacceptable. For a private residential situation, especially when use of the pool or spa is limited to a small number of people, the risk is lower.

Some bacteria can develop resistance to metal ions while viruses are generally not inactivated by metal ions.

So is having a metal ion system better than not disinfecting the water at all? Absolutely -- it's a LOT better. Is it as effective as using a fast-acting sanitizer? No. Does it matter? That's up to the purchaser of the system, but the EPA won't let you call the water disinfected if you don't use one of the fast-acting sanitizers. I talk about Nature2 and how the EPA tests can be gamed here. Again, as I say in that post, the risk is low, and I'm more concerned with the lack of direct honesty than I am of putting anyone at any serious risk.

Richard

[waterbear]

water can look clear but still harbor many pathogens. It 's your tub and your choice but if you come down with an water borne illness you can't say you haven't been warned! If you wife truely cannot handle bromine and chlorine then your only other EPA approved sanitizer (with an EPA registration number for SPA use which is a whole different game than drinking water sanitation) would be a biguanide system like SoftSoak or BaquaSpa. Biguanides have thier own set of problems which is why I don't really recommened them but for some people it is really their only alternative.

The thing I find a bit strange about your post is that you went with bromine over chlorine. Bromine has a MUCH stronger smell than chlorine does!

With all due respect, it seems as if you and chem geek are the ones with rigid thinking. Anytime anyone is using something other than chlorine or Bromine based systems, your answer is "you may think it's leaving your water good, but dangers abound. It's deteriorating your tub, or poisoning you." Maybe some of these other approaches work well if done properly.

With all due respect chelated copper sulfate is NOT an EPA approved sanitizer. If you read the marketing matierial it is NOT called a santizer but a bacteriocide and algaecide. Copper's algastatic properties are well known and copper sulfate has been used as an effective pool and spa algaecide for many years (but copper based algaecides have some definite drawbacks!) The product might have an EPA number but that is because copper sulfate itself is a registered pesticide, not because the product is an EPA registered sanitizer. Transmission of water borne illnesses, both repiratory and enteric, are no joke. Do a bit more research and you might change your mind! (Or are you possibly a marketer of the cleanwater blue system and it's sister enzyme product, eco one--also touted as a sanitizer!)

IF these other approaches actually worked do you think that both bromine and chlorine would still be a prevelant as they are? Hmmm, something to think about!

NONE of these 'alternatives' are new. Chelated copper sulfate has been used for years and it's not replaced bromine or chlorine yet. There MUSt be a reason for that!

I know you are using biguanide and so far have had good luck with it but the majority of biguanide users DO suffer problems. The damage that biguande causes to certain plastics and the shorter filter life and more frequent cleanings are a fact. I have never said that bigaunide was NOT an effective sanitzer, it is. I have just said that it is not a first choice because there are more problems associated with it than with either bromine or chlorine. This is a far cry from the use of chelated copper sulfate or enzymes exclusively, neither of which are primarey sanitizers! Copper is an effective algaecide and enzymes can help digest lipid based organics in the water (something to conisder witha biguanide based system!) but neither one will keep the water 'safe'>

[RedOregon]

1. Because someone might not agree with you does not automatically make them a marketer of what they like.

2. Thank you for informing me of what smells stronger than something else. I guess I must need a nose recalibration.

3. The cleanwater system does include shocking the system after use, which I believe was mentioned elsewhere in these forums, so I didn't bring that up again.

[waterbear]

1. Because someone might not agree with you does not automatically make them a marketer of what they like.

2. Thank you for informing me of what smells stronger than something else. I guess I must need a nose recalibration.

3. The cleanwater system does include shocking the system after use, which I believe was mentioned elsewhere in these forums, so I didn't bring that up again.

Yes, and it is being shocked with chlorine. What you are using is a chlorine system with a copper based algaecide.

The strong chemical or 'fishy' smell of bromine is well documented and is one of it's big drawbacks. Chlorine actually has much less of a smell in a properly maintained system. If you tried chlorine and were smelling chlorine then your water had chloramines present and needed shocking. It was not being properly maintained.

[Private Shrink]

1. Because someone might not agree with you does not automatically make them a marketer of what they like.

2. Thank you for informing me of what smells stronger than something else. I guess I must need a nose recalibration.

3. The cleanwater system does include shocking the system after use, which I believe was mentioned elsewhere in these forums, so I didn't bring that up again.

Yes, and it is being shocked with chlorine. What you are using is a chlorine system with a copper based algaecide.

The strong chemical or 'fishy' smell of bromine is well documented and is one of it's big drawbacks. Chlorine actually has much less of a smell in a properly maintained system. If you tried chlorine and were smelling chlorine then your water had chloramines present and needed shocking. It was not being properly maintained.

For what it's worth, I am not a salesman for any product. What I consistently read about on this forum are negative comments about both bromine and chlorine systems, but then the declaration that they are better than everything else. Sounds pretty depressing to me. You say that bromine systems have a tendency to smell chemical or "fishy" (yummy) and that chlorine systems (which everyone complains about drying skin out, bleaching clothing, smelling harsh) is much less of a smell problem if maintained. I guess a LOT of people aren't maintaining their systems properly. I don't want bad smell, harshness on my skin, pathogens...just clean, sparkling water. So far, BaquaSpa does it for me. I'm not saying it will do it for anyone else, but if I run into white mold problems someday, I am not very reassured by anything I read here regarding the two biggies Chlorine and Bromine.

[waterbear]

1. Because someone might not agree with you does not automatically make them a marketer of what they like.

2. Thank you for informing me of what smells stronger than something else. I guess I must need a nose recalibration.

3. The cleanwater system does include shocking the system after use, which I believe was mentioned elsewhere in these forums, so I didn't bring that up again.

Yes, and it is being shocked with chlorine. What you are using is a chlorine system with a copper based algaecide.

The strong chemical or 'fishy' smell of bromine is well documented and is one of it's big drawbacks. Chlorine actually has much less of a smell in a properly maintained system. If you tried chlorine and were smelling chlorine then your water had chloramines present and needed shocking. It was not being properly maintained.

For what it's worth, I am not a salesman for any product. What I consistently read about on this forum are negative comments about both bromine and chlorine systems, but then the declaration that they are better than everything else. Sounds pretty depressing to me. You say that bromine systems have a tendency to smell chemical or "fishy" (yummy) and that chlorine systems (which everyone complains about drying skin out, bleaching clothing, smelling harsh) is much less of a smell problem if maintained. I guess a LOT of people aren't maintaining their systems properly. I don't want bad smell, harshness on my skin, pathogens...just clean, sparkling water. So far, BaquaSpa does it for me. I'm not saying it will do it for anyone else, but if I run into white mold problems someday, I am not very reassured by anything I read here regarding the two biggies Chlorine and Bromine.

I have had actual experience with all three systems, using them at home and professionally. I can tell you that I stand by what I have said in the past about all three and other professionals on here have said basically the same. You have experience with biguanide in one hot tub. You have not tried anything else so you don't have a lot to go on. You seem to want to ignore the well documented and negative comments about biguanide also just because you have not had any problem yet. Perhaps you never will but most of the people who try it eventually do. BTW, how often are you cleaning and changing your filters? I guess that is something you don't mind doing because it needs to be done MUCH more fequently with bigainide than with either chlorine or bromine so it the work level is actually greater. This is docmetned in the instructions for use with these systems and is one of it's known drawbacks.

Like I said I am glad that biguanide is working for you and I hope it continues to do so. You don't seem to mind the high cost or the extra work involved with more frequent filter cleaning so maybe it is a good match for you. (Then again, you have not tried anything else so you have nothing to compare it against.) It is one of the three EPA approved sanitizers (although some countries still do not allow it's use) so your water should be safe as long as your properly test and maintain your biguanide and peroxide levels. I do know that the dealer you are buying it from is happy since it is a profit maker for him.