No Bromine & Foamy Water

[flyguyscott]

Hi Guys,

I'm a complete newbie here so please excuse any ignorance that I may show.

I've had my Arctic Glacier spa with the Onzen salt system for 3 weeks now and still having difficulty with balancing the water... mostly getting any kind of bromine levels at all which I think is causing the water to foam because there is no sanitizer.

I jus thave the test strips provided by the dealer, but is shows pH at 7.4 and TA at 180 (kinda... the inside of the test square is one colour and the outside is another), Bromine at 0 and salt at 3500ppm (which I know is a little high... but the dealer said they were good)

I have a ton of questions... so here goes.

1. I turned the CP up to 6 (on for 24 hours a day) and I can see the little bubbles so I know the onzen system is working. Still I still get no bromine readings. Any ideas?
2. The water seems pretty clear but has a little bit of haze to it instead of being crystal clear. The dealer said this was normal as the salt solids are dissolved in the water and it will never by crystal clear like a typical chlorine system. Is it possible to get a salt water hot tub water crystal clear?
3. Is the foam caused because of the lack of bromine sanitizer?
4. There's a smell every time I open the cover. It smells more chemical than anything. I don't know what bromie or ozone smess like but I don't think it's bromine since none seems be be produced. I know the ozone generator works because there is a plethera of bubbles coming from the ozone vent everytime pump 1 is on or the tub is running in filter mode.
5. How does the non-chlorine shock I was provided interact with the "supposed" bromine? I was told to put 1 cap full of "Arctic Refresh" in once a week and told that it will also help raise bromine levels. I have put some in the last couple of days and still no bromine. Can you over-shock your tub?
6. If you know anything about Aqua Finess, how will this help the water? The dealer gave me 6L of Aqua Finess on delivery and I was told to add 200mL every week. At this rate, this seems like a very expensive chemical to maintain the water. It would equate to almost $50 / month to use the Aqua Finesse. Any comments?

Thanks in advance for your help

[quantumchromodynamics]

First of all, it's important to get a good test kit such as the K-2106. Test strips are not accurate.

The foam is being caused by various contaminants that come with a new tub. A new tub should always be decontaminated prior to regular use. The contaminants could be causing a high sanitizer demand. Follow the

Decontamination procedure and start over.

Next, when you refill, you need to lower your alkalinity. Follow the Lowering Alkalinity procedure.

I am surprised that you are reporting a pH of 7.4 with an alkalinity of 180. In most cases, an alkalinity of 180 will cause the pH to go above 8.0. A high pH, alkalinity or calcium could all cause your CSI to go to high.

Did you use sodium chloride or sodium bromide as your primary salt? If you used sodium chloride, did you also add 30 to 50 ppm sodium bromide?

Salt should not make your water cloudy. Properly balanced water should be very clean and clear.

The cloudy water could be being caused by low sanitizer levels or a high CSI. CSI is the Calcite Saturation Index. You can calculate your CSI by using thepoolcalculator. You want to keep your CSI between -0.4 and -0.1 for a salt water tub to prevent scaling in the salt cell.

If the cell becomes scaled, it will stop working. You should check the cell for scaling.

CP (Control Production) should not need to be set at 6. Your high salt level and the CP setting of 6 may be making too much bromine, which could bleach out the test reagents and read as low or zero.

Aqua Finesse is some sort of biofilm prevention chemical. They are very evasive about what their product is and how it works. It is not necessary. I don't think that it is worth the extra expense.

Non-chlorine shock (MPS) is an oxidizer; it does oxidize bromide into bromine. You need to have about 30 to 50 ppm of sodium bromide in the water for the MPS to make bromine. MPS will oxidize contaminants in the water.

You can use regular, unscented Clorox bleach to boost bromine levels quickly. Be careful not to get any of the "special use" bleaches such as scented or "splashless".

To check for high bromine levels, you can dilute the water sample 9:1 with distilled water (not tap water) and then multiply the result by 10.

What is your calcium level?

[flyguyscott]

Thanks for taking the time to write all of that up.

I'm using a sodium boromide salt and I don't know my calcium level as I have nothing to measure it with. They did not measure at the shop when I took my water in for a reading.

I'm going to get a better test kit as I've read all over the forums that the test strips are not accurate which I've already noticed. I'll follow your guidelines to a T and post results in a few days.

A couple more questions just for clarity if you don't mind...

1. I was told to add 1 cap full of shock once a week (or 1/2 twice a week). Is this really all I need with the setup I have or should I be adding a little after each soak?
2. I have all this Aqua Finesse that came with the spa, is there any harm in using it with your reccomendations until it's gone. Aqua Finesse reccomends 280mL per week with my 1400L tub. The dealer told me 190mL per week should be fine.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Here is a quote from Richard about how much oxidizer to use based on the amount of usage the tub gets:

The rough rule of thumb (without an ozonator) is that every person-hour of soaking in a hot (100-104F) spa needs around 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (MPS) to oxidize the bather waste. - Richard (chem geek)

Many people have found this to work quite well. Ideally, your bromine level should stay fairly consistent and the level should never get below 1.0 ppm. You should maintain between 1.0 ppm and 5 ppm.

As far as the Aqua Finesse, I really do not know enough about it to advise one way or the other. You can certainly get good results without it. So, I don't see any reason to use it. You can try it if you want, I would be interested in hearing your opinion about it.

Also, be sure to get a calcium reading as soon as possible.

It is also important to verify that you are using the right salt. Some units are designed to use sodium chloride and some are designed to use sodium bromide. Check the installation and owner's manual to verify the recommended salt.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

We were told by the manufacture of our salt generating system (genesis) which is the same idea as yours, not to use Aqua Finesse because it is made from salts and it will mess up your salt generator. At first with the genesis I had a hard time maintaining a bromine level. This was due to the tub being new and a lot of oils are leeched out into the water from the plastics. I had to shock with non chlorine shock daily and use Sea Klear clarifier every three days for about a month, along with pulling the filters and cleaning them. After all this, i have learned with my use, nightly for 40 minutes, i have to keep my generator set to 8 to keep the bromine up. I shock if i start noting the the level is sarting to go down, usually weekly to a week and a half. I use sea Klear clarifier on a weekly basis. Our customers that have the gensis have different numbers that work for them, they are not as heavy of a user as we are. Most keep it set for 5, use on the weekends and shock at the end of the weekend and use sea klear weekly. Talk to Artic about it before you take the wrong advice on here and ruin the generator. Bleach will ruin it.

[chem geek]

Saltwater chlorine generators (SWGs) tend to have the pH rise and this is true both in pools and in spas. They produce chlorine in a way that is essentially identical to that added from a hypochlorite source of chlorine such as bleach or chlorinating liquid (see here), but also have additional aeration and can outgas chlorine gas if it doesn't completely dissolve in the water after generation. The use of a pH buffer, such as 50 ppm Borates (i.e. ProTeam Gentle Spa), helps keep the pH much more stable. If you use an unbuffered non-chlorine shock, then that is like adding acid regularly which can help keep the pH down though the TA will drop slowly over time in that case. If the pH is not rising and the TA is higher, I wouldn't lower it significantly, at least not without having an alternative pH buffer such as the Borates, though a combination of high TA with high CH can lead to scaling and that is obviously bad for any SWG.

HHT, when you say that bleach will ruin the SWG, are you referring to using bleach and not managing the pH so that if it rises one gets scale on the generator that then ruins it? Interestingly, most SWG manufacturers say that having higher sulfates in the water is bad for their SWG units. Both dry acid and non-chlorine shock (MPS) increase sulfates. AquaFinesse doesn't disclose exactly what is in their product, but as described in this post it is a mixture of salts and they said it did not include phosphates (but might include borates since the pH is buffered). Perhaps the salts are high in sulfates and that's something the SWG manufacturers generally want to avoid.

1 ounce of dry acid in 350 gallons raises the sulfate level by 17 ppm. 1 ounce of non-chlorine shock (MPS) in 350 gallons raises the sulfate level by 13 ppm.

Richard

[quantumchromodynamics]

Talk to Artic about it before you take the wrong advice on here and ruin the generator. Bleach will ruin it.

HillbillyHottub, can you please explain why you think that bleach will ruin a salt chlorinator?

[quantumchromodynamics]

flyguyscott, bleach is fine to use. Anyone claiming differently has no legitimate scientific basis for making such a claim. They may claim that if you don't manage your pH while using bleach, then you could get scale.

Well, it's always true that you need to manage all of your chemical levels and maintain a good CSI.

Therefore, the advice not to use bleach is based on assuming that the tub owner is basically incompetent and negligent.

[flyguyscott]

Well, I did the decontamination, refilled the tub and let it come up to temp over night.

ph was 7.3 and TA was 95 straight from the hose and the water was crystal clear.

I just added the salt to the tub and have a concentration of 2150ppm. The water is a lot clearer than the last time after adding the salt as I dissolved the salt in hot water and added 1 lb of salt at a time over an hour. Hopefully it'll clear up to be as clear as the straight hose water.

thepoolcalculator.com has a default target of 2500ppm for salt, should I add a little more to bring it to that level?

I think I'm going to hold off on using the Aqua Finesse for the time beging as I read up on it and it uses it's own salts, clarifiers and other chemicals to lock the pH and TA. I'd rather try to balance one set of chemicals opposed to mixing 2 that essentially do the same thing.

[quantumchromodynamics]

It is important to use the right salt and the right concentration based on the Owner's manual.

Does the Owner's manual specify sodium bromide or sodium chloride?

What level does the Owner's manual specify?

What salt are you using sodium bromide or sodium chloride?

What brand of salt are you using?

What is your calcium level?

It is important to get a chlorine or bromine level right away and to maintain consistent levels. It is also important to keep the CSI from going positive to prevent scale from forming on the salt cell plates.

[quantumchromodynamics]

It looks like the Onzen can use either sodium chloride to make chlorine or sodium bromide to make bromine.

I think that it would be best to use 2000 ppm of sodium chloride and 30 to 50 ppm of sodium bromide for a bromine system instead of using 2000 ppm sodium bromide.

The system will make chlorine and the chlorine will oxidize the bromide to bromine.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

You can't use bleach, or other forms of chemicals with salts because it will ruin the electrodes. At least with the Gensis, I can not use salt made for chlorine generators, I have to use sodium bromide salts or it will ruin the electrodes, i also called them about the salts in Aqua finesse and they said no way. Who actually makes the onzen system for Arctic, anyone know? Metals in the water will also ruin the electrodes, which is partly why you have to use a pre filter, along with the fact they want the TDS as low as it can get to start since you are adding so much salt.

Ask the companies what their scientific reasoning is, I am not going to ruin my system, or have customers ruin theirs by doing something the company specifically tells you not to. Aparently different salts have different reactions with the different electrodes in the generators. I don't have time to search or question the company to why this happens scientifically.

As far as adding MPS, you are looking to get the system working so it will maintain the bromine without adding much to the water, or you will have to dump the water sooner. High TDS will not allow the generator to create bromine either, so they are looking to add as little as possible to the water.

Chem Geek, I did have issues with PH creep, but now that I have it down to where the dial is set, our normal use and all the gunk out of the water from the new plastics, my Ph stays in check. I have been faithfully testing before use, after use, during the day etc. What is happening is when I use the tub, PH lowers a bit (7.3 apx) starts to rise through the day, gets to 7.7/7.8 then I use the tub again dropping it back down. But this is with our personal use. If I do not use the tub for the day, the PH will rise a bit to high, along with the bromine. If we plan on going away, i am going to have to turn it down, this will be another learning curve to figure out.

No need to be rude quantum....you have no idea who I am or my knowledge, I was worried about the salts, not the fact it was bleach, some of you all are so worried about we professionals are going to bleach bash you....One reason why i don't come on the forum much, besides reading some of the bad info makes my hair cringe. I don't talk like a scientist to customers, I don't need to make myself look smart, as long as the result is safe, clean enjoyable water that they can easily manage, and this is different for each person.

[chem geek]

Thanks for the info. I can see from the Genesis website that they expect the water to mostly be sodium bromide salt and not chloride so yes, adding bleach would increase chloride over time which isn't what they want. Perhaps their electrodes are designed to make bromine from bromide and don't work correctly or otherwise get deteriorated or burn out if chloride is used or if the conductivity gets too high (from any extra salts).

In their owner's manual, it is very clear that they want the phosphates level to be low and they say that higher phosphate levels inhibit bromine production (which I find odd). For shocking the spa, they say to use non-chlorine shock and are explicit about not using a store bought chlorine shock, HOWEVER it says on page 19 of the manual that one can use either "one teaspoon of a non-chlorine shock provided by your dealer or a two ounce jigger (double shot glass) of ordinary laundry bleach".

So apparently it IS OK to use bleach for shocking. It's interesting that they don't want people to use a store-bought chlorine shock, which probably means Dichlor. It sounds like they don't want Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water, though I'm not sure why because it shouldn't affect bromine.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Deleted Post.

[quantumchromodynamics]

In their owner's manual, it is very clear that they want the phosphates level to be low and they say that higher phosphate levels inhibit bromine production (which I find odd).

It is my understanding that one of the concerns that manufacturers have about phosphate is that it will form calcium phosphate scale on the plates more easily than calcium carbonate and that the calcium phosphate scale will act as a seed substrate to induce calcium carbonate scale. I am not sure how legitimate this is, but I am pretty sure that this is one of the reasons that manufacturers give for limiting phosphate.

Unfortunately, that was only part of the problem. “At the same time,” Carlyle says, “orthophosphate also is one of the fastest-forming types of scale, and it formed on the cell itself and other surfaces. Phosphate scale itself is easily removed, but it promotes other forms of scale that tend to layer in right on top of it, and these are very difficult to remove. Phosphate scale acts like a primer for more-problematic forms of scale such as calcium carbonate and other sulfate forms. http://www.aquamagazine.com/articles/artic...3&zoneid=13

[chem geek]

QCD,

Though I question everything at first even if it's "traditional industry practice", I also try to listen to the practical advice of dealers with experience such as HHT (and Dr. Spa and some others) since there are all kinds of factors or missing pieces of information that can not all be gleaned from just what theory would predict -- and besides, if theory doesn't meet practice, it's the theory that needs adjusting, not the observations. It is true that if something goes against the known chemistry, then I have a rather critical eye on it, but I don't discount real world experience since observations (especially from credible or multiple sources) is real. A deeper or sometimes more complex explanation might be needed or in some cases where such an explanation is not found it is just accepted as an odd thing, though those mysteries are pretty few and far between.

HHT has been on this forum before you or I and given very good practical advice to many. So I hope you both continue to contribute positively, without judgment, with civility, and with the common goal of better understanding and the ability to help more pool and spa owners since that's really the bottom line with this and other forums -- we're here to help each other. I find both of your contributions to be invaluable, though coming from different perspectives.

Ben Powell, who started PoolSolutions and The PoolForum, was always sensitive to keeping things simple and relegating more complicated chemical discussions to a special section of the forum known as "The China Shop" and this tradition continues at Trouble Free Pool in a section known as "The Deep End". Most people are not interested in the chemistry of their spas or pools just as most people are not interested in how their car works, at least not in detail. We don't really have such a section like that on this forum, though the "Swimming Pool Water Chemistry" and "Hot Tub Water Chemistry" sections have been the closest thing to such a section.

Last, but not least, if a manufacturer voids a warranty because a user doesn't follow instructions, no matter if such instructions don't make sense chemically, then it doesn't really matter since warranties are a business contract (promise) and don't have to follow any sense whatsoever. At a minimum, the pool/spa owner should be aware of that if they choose to go against any such advice.

Richard

[quantumchromodynamics]

HHT, I did not mean to be rude. If I was, then I apologize. I will try to be more careful in the future.

Please feel free to contact me by PM if you feel like my posts are rude or inappropriate.

[cpumodem]

Hi Guys,

I'm a complete newbie here so please excuse any ignorance that I may show.

I've had my Arctic Glacier spa with the Onzen salt system for 3 weeks now and still having difficulty with balancing the water... mostly getting any kind of bromine levels at all which I think is causing the water to foam because there is no sanitizer.

I jus thave the test strips provided by the dealer, but is shows pH at 7.4 and TA at 180 (kinda... the inside of the test square is one colour and the outside is another), Bromine at 0 and salt at 3500ppm (which I know is a little high... but the dealer said they were good)

I have a ton of questions... so here goes.

1. I turned the CP up to 6 (on for 24 hours a day) and I can see the little bubbles so I know the onzen system is working. Still I still get no bromine readings. Any ideas?
2. The water seems pretty clear but has a little bit of haze to it instead of being crystal clear. The dealer said this was normal as the salt solids are dissolved in the water and it will never by crystal clear like a typical chlorine system. Is it possible to get a salt water hot tub water crystal clear?
3. Is the foam caused because of the lack of bromine sanitizer?
4. There's a smell every time I open the cover. It smells more chemical than anything. I don't know what bromie or ozone smess like but I don't think it's bromine since none seems be be produced. I know the ozone generator works because there is a plethera of bubbles coming from the ozone vent everytime pump 1 is on or the tub is running in filter mode.
5. How does the non-chlorine shock I was provided interact with the "supposed" bromine? I was told to put 1 cap full of "Arctic Refresh" in once a week and told that it will also help raise bromine levels. I have put some in the last couple of days and still no bromine. Can you over-shock your tub?
6. If you know anything about Aqua Finess, how will this help the water? The dealer gave me 6L of Aqua Finess on delivery and I was told to add 200mL every week. At this rate, this seems like a very expensive chemical to maintain the water. It would equate to almost $50 / month to use the Aqua Finesse. Any comments?

Thanks in advance for your help

Flyguyscott I too have an Arctic Glacier with Onzen. I have had the tub since July 2008 and had the Onzen replaced in March 2009. I do not use the salt that produces bromine as the salt that I user produces chlorione.

First off for all the problems that you are having contact your dealer for support. On the Aqua Finess my opinion is that the dealer is trying to make more money from you. Ditch the Aqua Finess... Also I would switch to a Taylor Tesk kit. You will find that the test strips are not as accurate.

The only chemicals that I use are:

The salt only used when filling up the tub

Chlorine to be used only after heavy tub use to establish a chlorine reserve. You will notice that heavey use there will be no sanatizer left.

Arctic Refresh

Ph up

PH Down

You salt level seems high. When I fill my tub I only use 1/2 of a new bucket of salt or 5 lbs.

How much salt did you put in the tub upon fill up?

When I do a water change every 3 months here is what I do.

1. Before I power down the tub I change the CP setting to 0.

2. Turn power off and drain tub

3. Clean tub and before I refill it I put on the pre-filler on the hose and fill tub.

4. Turn power on, run on slow speed for 3 to 5 minutes and then run on high speed for a minute or 2 to get the air out of the lines.

5. Get the 5 pounds of salt ready to put into tub and wait until the water temperature is 85 degrees then open up the air and run both pumps on high.

6. Slowly pour the salt into the tub. Should take you about 10 to 15 minutes.

7. When the pumps turn off after 20 minutes running the first pump should be running only on low speed as the tub will be heating up.

9. Go into the low level programming and set the CP from 0 to 3. (you have the salt in the tub now so it time to turn the Onzen on)

By morning I have 3 parts of Chlorine and clear water so that I could use the tub.

But again you paid lots on money for this tub contact your dealer for help.

[flyguyscott]

Thanks everyone for your help. Things are starting to work as they should.

I drained the tub and did the decontamination process.

Upon refilling, I added 3 lbs of salt, pre-dissolved in hot water, one pound an hour. This bround salt levels to 2150ppm.

Withing 24 hours, the water cleared up, bromine was 4ppm, ph, TA and Calcium were in check.

I haven't used the Aqua Finess at all and I don't think I'm going to. It's an expensive "system" and I seem to have things under control now.

It's been a week or so and a few uses and all still seem good.... So let's keep hopting they'll stay that way.

I still have tons of questions but I'll start a new topic as they're not directly related to the bromine production and foaming problems.