annabelle1999 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I purchased one of Costco's Infinity Spas in late summer: infinity spa And I was shocked to get my first heating bill, which had nearly tripled, which represented about a $200/mo increase over my average before-spa days. My KWH billed jumped from 542/month to 1339/month. From everything I read before hand, I anticipated maybe an increase of $50/month at most, so this is giving me near heart failure. Here’s how I’m running the spa: * Temp set to 102’ * I’m running it in Economy Mode (which means it only heats up to the desired temp of 102 during filtration) * the Filter is set to F2 (which I gather means it filters twice, for 2 hours, every day. This can be changed to 4 hours, 6 hours or continuous) * the tub cover is always on when not in use * we maybe use it for a half/hour 3 or 4 times/week, but that’s it. Is this normal? Do you have any advice or suggestions? I live in northern california on the coast, but it really hasn't gotten that cold at night or day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I purchased one of Costco's Infinity Spas in late summer: infinity spa And I was shocked to get my first heating bill, which had nearly tripled, which represented about a $200/mo increase over my average before-spa days. My KWH billed jumped from 542/month to 1339/month. From everything I read before hand, I anticipated maybe an increase of $50/month at most, so this is giving me near heart failure. Here’s how I’m running the spa: * Temp set to 102’ * I’m running it in Economy Mode (which means it only heats up to the desired temp of 102 during filtration) * the Filter is set to F2 (which I gather means it filters twice, for 2 hours, every day. This can be changed to 4 hours, 6 hours or continuous) * the tub cover is always on when not in use * we maybe use it for a half/hour 3 or 4 times/week, but that’s it. Is this normal? Do you have any advice or suggestions? I live in northern california on the coast, but it really hasn't gotten that cold at night or day. There is a price to pay for inexpensive up front. Poor insulation and power hungry components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-soaked Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 It is NOT the price of the tub but the quality of the tub and how it is insulated. You can pay big bucks for a hot tub and still pay huge electric bills. I paid $14K for a Master Spa LSX1050 (2007 model) and having the same issue. Master Spa doesn’t go with full foam insulation they use a thermal pain design with partial foam. The slightest breeze sucks the heat from under the skirt and the 5.5KW heater kicks on . My tub during the warmer months (Delaware) uses about 25KW per day which equates to 750KW per month @.13cents a KWH comes to $97.50. During the colder months the KW use will easily double and taking the electric usage over $200 a month. With economy mode, do you know the number of degrees the water temperature will drop between the cleaning cycles? Is your tub fully insulation. What KW rating is your heater? Also, a good quality cover can reduce your cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnInSJ Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Wow that's really not good. I've been tracking my Tiger River Caspian since it was installed in July, and actually can't even see it: For example September Bill: Usage Comparison _______ Days Billed Kwh Billed Kwh per Day This Year 30 _______ 808 _____ 26.9 Last Year 28 _______ 836 _____ 29.9 Also in NorCal (San Jose, a little warmer then you) with similar usage. Is it installed in a location where it is exposed to wind? Can you screen it in any way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avasicek Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Most reputable manufacturers list a $30 or less figure, but its normally based on the average of 8cent per kWh, 101 - 102 temp, used for 1 cycle every day or two so its subjective. The $30-40 that most people expect based on sales pitch normally comes out to 400kWh give or take depending on usage. Using your figures and if you can attibute 100% of the increase to the spa was around 800kWh. Also by your figures it looks like your at roughly 25cent per kWh which is a factor in this debate. You can probably attribute a portion of it to insulation (which is easily and cheeply corrected if you think its really a factor), but what I find most often the issue is how the spa gets used. Most new users are normally in their spas a lot more then the sales pitch above. Often though most just arent familiar with how the spa operates. I find the most two common problems with high electric bills to be accidental, not manufacturing defect. The cover is not on the spa 100% of the time its not in use (which I know you mentioned just pointing it out), and the air controls get left open when not in use. Many modern spas will run a filteration or anti-stagnation cycle even if they are running a 24hour circ pump, which causes the main jet pumps to run. Spas without a circ motor must run the main motors to maintain temp and circulation. When these much larger pumps are running, with an open air control or four+ some are accidently cooling their spas as fast as they heat them for 2-4+++ hours per day. I think Infinity uses Balboa, and most Balboa econ settings mean the spa will be allowed to drop up to 10 degrees from your actual set point unless the spa hits a filtration mode. Many spas are cheaper to maintain temperature (or near actual usage temp) then to heat the spa for a full hour or more to reach your desired temp. You may see less of a jump by not letting the spa cool to that degree if you use it a lot. A 4kW heater at full amperage will normally only heat a spa size volume of water 3-5 degrees per hour depending on the other conditions. Also F2 on a Balboa is normally two, two-hour cycles per day for a total of four hours. A body of water can only cool so fast based on your ambient temperature unless something else is acting on the water. A 4.0 or 6.0kW heater can only heat a mass of water at a certain rate at max power unless something else is acting on the water. A 4-6kW heater can only draw a certain amount of power at max capacity. I really dont think this is a quality issue without more information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-soaked Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 You can probably attribute a portion of it to insulation (which is easily and cheeply corrected if you think its really a factor), but what I find most often the issue is how the spa gets used. Most new users are normally in their spas a lot more then the sales pitch above. Often though most just arent familiar with how the spa operates. I find the most two common problems with high electric bills to be accidental, not manufacturing defect. The cover is not on the spa 100% of the time its not in use (which I know you mentioned just pointing it out), and the air controls get left open when not in use. All the point you made are very valid. My particular Master Spa LSX1050 power consumption of 25KW per day (warmer months) is because of insulation. I can fell the heat escaping from the skirt. What is your easy and inexpensive fix for poor insulated tubs. I’m being told by the Roxul insulation distributor that he would not recomend the Roxul products sold in the USA toi be near the air intake of a spa. Fibers might get sucked into the air intake. 1) I had a KW meter placed of the breaker of the hot tub to validate the KW usage 2) Cover is on 23+ hours out of the day 3) Cover is a good quality cover and is placed on correctly 4) Air intake is turned off when tub is not in use 5) Filter cycle is set for 2-2hour cycles 6) Spa is equipped with small circulation pump that runs 24x7 so the larger pumps do not have to run I'm going to try to fill the skirt of my LSX1050 with a closed cell foam. I hear it is messy to spray on and will cost between $300-$600 dollars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avasicek Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 You will want some heat to escape, your 24 hour circ pump and ozonator are both probably in the 130+ degree range to the touch. If you feel to much is escaping then closing the gaps in the cabinet would fix the problem, more of a true thermopane (and easier then going full foam which your manufacturer may not have intended for). Just need to be wary of trapping to much heat. How hot is the inside of the cabinet? If its ambient its a problem, if its still 105+ like most I have worked on are, then its probably not as large an issue as like a windy day would be. Bleeding heat isnt necessarily bad, letting in cold is the problem. I meant cheap being relative to the problem, if you can save $50 a month (which isnt hard to do at 25cent per kWH) with extra insulation it doesnt take long to pay off. Easy is also subjective =). Sprayed foam isnt hard, it is messy. You also need to watch for overfilling and compression. You dont want to squish any of those clear vinyl tubes shut. A few other placement issues I have seen to be a factor that were mentioned, wind. Shield the spa from wind if its an issue. Is the spa off the ground on a raised platform? Is it airtight? Wind passing under a deck for example can essentially suck the warm air out of an open spa base. Some of my spa installations in Alaska and Canada have seen a significant benifit from an insulated spa base material between the ground and spa. Just be careful about to many modifications to the factory standard, you dont want to accidently cause warranty issues or void it entirely. Did you purchase from a dealer? Has the spa been looked at by the dealer or an actual factory rep to see if it meets standards? If you have concrete imperical data of 25kWh per day, what does the factory engineer say? 750kWh is on the high side for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avasicek Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 I do want to apologize, I am not meaning to sound vague or evasive. Trying to post an answer that will help others reading with a similar issue without saying something that will devolve this into a brand bias or sales methodology preference debate all without being on site is rough =) You do seem to have some very good information about your problem and seem on top of everything as much as I could advise remotely. Most spa owners do not know specifically how much their unit draws on a daily basis and should give you an excellent method of attack, so to speak, with the factory and their advertising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfshell Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Like others have pointed out, you can ONLY use kWh to analyze and compare electric usage - either from one period to another or between tubs. The cost per kWh varies wildly from region to region and even time of day in some places. Here in CT I pay about $0.19 per kWh. When I got my Nordic tub in December of 2006, I started keeping track of our electric bills. I figured the tub accounted for an increase of about 15-16 kWh per day. In a 30 day month, that's about 450 kWh or about $85!!! If the spa industry uses $0.08/kWh as their basis for computing electrical costs per month, then - even in the coldest months - it would be about $36/month for me. That's right where my salesman said I'd be - $30-40 month. When I got my first few electric bills after having the tub for a while, I almost choked but then realized the actual electric usage is about where it "should" be. In your case, it appears you're using an additional 25 kwh/day since you added the tub. To me, that's a lot. That would cost me about $150/month! Since Nordic tubs are not known for having the best insulation, I'm going to try to add something to the cabinet over the next few weeks in preparation for our New England winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huey graphite Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Some of my spa installations in Alaska and Canada have seen a significant benifit from an insulated spa base material between the ground and spa. I am preparing for the arrival of my new tub and am curious to know what type of material you would recommend between a concrete pad and the spa. Thanks in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annabelle1999 Posted October 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 Wow, thanks for all the fantastic info. I just got off the phone with PGE, read my meter this morning, and I'm still on track at these astronomical usage rates (ie. another $300+ bill). I must stop the madness! And yes, because I am so far over my 'baseline' allotment for KWH, i'm paying .36 per kwh on everything over base. here are my questions "the air controls get left open when not in use" are you referring to the jets in the hot tub? it is true that we don't close those (or the ones on the top that). Should I be closing all the hot tub jets (there are 40 of them) each time. I can definitely go turn off the ones on the top. The PGE guy says he hears my complaint a lot from hot tub owners, and that I have to figure out a way to manually get the filter to run less often (it is set at the minimum now of 4 hours/per day). If I get it down to one hour/day, theoretically that should cut my usage by 75%. As for 'economy mode'. The temp drops about 10 degrees each time. My other two options are to run it on 'standard mode' where it keeps the temperature current (but this may mean running the filter more!), or 'sleep mode' where it lets it drop to 20 degrees of the desired temp, but brings it back up during filter mode. Ok, I've got a call into the mfr, and to costco, to see if they have any other advice too. thanks everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 here are my questions "the air controls get left open when not in use" are you referring to the jets in the hot tub? it is true that we don't close those (or the ones on the top that). Should I be closing all the hot tub jets (there are 40 of them) each time. I can definitely go turn off the ones on the top. The PGE guy says he hears my complaint a lot from hot tub owners, and that I have to figure out a way to manually get the filter to run less often (it is set at the minimum now of 4 hours/per day). If I get it down to one hour/day, theoretically that should cut my usage by 75%. As for 'economy mode'. The temp drops about 10 degrees each time. My other two options are to run it on 'standard mode' where it keeps the temperature current (but this may mean running the filter more!), or 'sleep mode' where it lets it drop to 20 degrees of the desired temp, but brings it back up during filter mode. Ok, I've got a call into the mfr, and to costco, to see if they have any other advice too. thanks everyone. You don't want to close the jets, you want to shut off the air to the jets when not in use. Make sure you have your filtering as low as possible and run in economy. The reality is you have a budget spa that uses thermopane for insulation and while the manufacturer will give it a Marketing name and claim it insulates well they just plain do not. This is one of the drawbacks to these spas; insulation is some wrap and a song and dance. To truly reduce your bill you need to upgrade your insulation. The manufacturer will be of no help here and if they know you did so I wouldn't doubt they'd use that against you to invalidate future warranty claims. While you may want to discuss their insulation issues I might avoid telling them I plan to alter their spa in any way if you indeed decide to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 here are my questions "the air controls get left open when not in use" are you referring to the jets in the hot tub? it is true that we don't close those (or the ones on the top that). Should I be closing all the hot tub jets (there are 40 of them) each time. I can definitely go turn off the ones on the top. The PGE guy says he hears my complaint a lot from hot tub owners, and that I have to figure out a way to manually get the filter to run less often (it is set at the minimum now of 4 hours/per day). If I get it down to one hour/day, theoretically that should cut my usage by 75%. As for 'economy mode'. The temp drops about 10 degrees each time. My other two options are to run it on 'standard mode' where it keeps the temperature current (but this may mean running the filter more!), or 'sleep mode' where it lets it drop to 20 degrees of the desired temp, but brings it back up during filter mode. Ok, I've got a call into the mfr, and to costco, to see if they have any other advice too. thanks everyone. You don't want to close the jets, you want to shut off the air to the jets when not in use. Make sure you have your filtering as low as possible and run in economy. The reality is you have a budget spa that uses thermopane for insulation and while the manufacturer will give it a Marketing name and claim it insulates well they just plain do not. This is one of the drawbacks to these spas; insulation is some wrap and a song and dance. To truly reduce your bill you need to upgrade your insulation. The manufacturer will be of no help here and if they know you did so I wouldn't doubt they'd use that against you to invalidate future warranty claims. While you may want to discuss their insulation issues I might avoid telling them I plan to alter their spa in any way if you indeed decide to do so. get some heat reflective tape to atleast staple to the inside and if you need service just pull it out and put it back in when the repair man leaves. But you have to be sneaky about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-soaked Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/wardlr/DSC00602.jpg http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee231/wardlr/DSC00604.jpg I’m truly impressed with your knowledge on the subject. Great point on being aware of over insulating and to stay away from insulating the circ pump and ozonator. The dealer is at a lost since spa owners do not challenge them on power consumption. I have read other post of spa owners wanting to use batt insulation. I have been warned not to since the fibers can get sucked into the air intakes. Q: Is the spa off the ground on a raised platform? A: My spa sits on pavers and is protected by a 2.5 sitting wall. Just be careful about too many modifications to the factory standard, you don’t want to accidentally cause warranty issues or void it entirely. Excellent point Q: Is it air tight? A: No, the manufacture of the tubs has 6 vent holes on 2 sides and the base has a hole in each corner Q: Did you purchase from a dealer? A: Yes, Dealer has been responsive and replaced the first tub. Q: Has the spa been looked at by the dealer or an actual factory rep to see if it meets standards? A: Yes, First tub had same problem (along with other issues) and the dealer replaced it. Received the first tub 11/2/06 and it was replaced on 10/12/07. replacement tub is alos an energy pig 25-50KW per day depending on the temperture Q: If you have concrete empirical data of 25kWh per day, what does the factory engineer say? 750kWh is on the high side for sure. A: Factory gives me canned-answers and are not customer focused. Dealer is working with me but I sense after this tub I am on my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-soaked Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 In your case, it appears you're using an additional 25 kwh/day since you added the tub. To me, that's a lot. That would cost me about $150/month! Since Nordic tubs are not known for having the best insulation, I'm going to try to add something to the cabinet over the next few weeks in preparation for our New England winter. I'm using 25 kwh/day in the warmer months and 50+ kwh/day in the colder months. I am also investigating insulating my hot tub. I have been advised against using any type of batt that is made of a fiber since the fiber can get sucked into the air jets and eventually get into the water. So that leaves me the reflective insulation that has a low R value or the closed cell foam which is messy and permanent not to mention void the warranty. Any advice from the readers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickJ Posted October 19, 2007 Report Share Posted October 19, 2007 In your case, it appears you're using an additional 25 kwh/day since you added the tub. To me, that's a lot. That would cost me about $150/month! Since Nordic tubs are not known for having the best insulation, I'm going to try to add something to the cabinet over the next few weeks in preparation for our New England winter. I'm using 25 kwh/day in the warmer months and 50+ kwh/day in the colder months. I am also investigating insulating my hot tub. I have been advised against using any type of batt that is made of a fiber since the fiber can get sucked into the air jets and eventually get into the water. So that leaves me the reflective insulation that has a low R value or the closed cell foam which is messy and permanent not to mention void the warranty. Any advice from the readers? I like your closed cell idea, I've been thinking of doing the same thing to my Down East spa. But I would suggest spraying the closed cell foam into a plastic trash bag. Then, the bag will expand so that it fills the space. But the foam won't actually stick to anything. Then, if you need to service the tub, you can just pull out the bags of foam to access the tub's components. You will probably have to use cardboard or wood to prevent the bags from filling in around hoses, pipes, and other nooks and crannys inside of the cabinet. But I think it would work pretty well. At least, that's how I'm going to do it if I can find the foam. where do you buy that stuff? Otherwise, buy some rigid foam insulation (like pink styrofoam) and cut it to fit around your tub. Increasing the thickness of the insulation around the skirt will probably help reduce your heat loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Got-soaked Posted October 20, 2007 Report Share Posted October 20, 2007 Tiger foam has the closed cell foam, it is expensive. I whish I could find a batt insulation that was moisture proof with a high R value. http://www.tigerfoam.com/applications.php R-7 Per Inch - Low perm rating makes it practically waterproof Foam Kits - 200 bd. ft. Foam Kits (16 cu. ft.) Price $335.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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