Pseudomonous Rash

[LilRed]

Yes, MPS is Potassium monopersulfate and is non-chlorine shock, but you should be able to check the ingredients for monopersulfate. That's very interesting that some are allergic to it. Except for being an oxidizer, it's relatively benign. I wonder if it's the oxidizer part, persulfate (SO5), that's the issue or the sulfate (SO4). If the rash comes up soon after using the non-chlorine shock (rather than at the end of the week after the shock should be fully dissipated), then it's the oxidizer part that is the problem. If the rash comes up only after continued use over many weeks or months and doesn't flare up only soon after addition of MPS, then it may be the sulfates since those just build up over time.

This could be it for me.I'm going to test again this tuesday. I'll le you know. Ive only put one tablespoon in so far.

John

That is interesting. If I use bleach and the ozonator do I need to shock the spa with the non-cholorine shock? Another question..my hot tub came with defaults set to filter twice a day for 2 hrs each time. Is that necessary? I can change the settings to filter from one to 12 hrs once a day or filter twice a day. I am just a newbie and appreciate any help. This weekend I didn't need to add as much bleach as I have been. Seems to be holding longer.

[104 Degrees]

I don't want to change the topic of this thread.... but introduce another possibility for your rash. Last year..... I developed a similar rash which nurses and doctors thought was "Hot Tub Itch". They put me on a number of strong medications....... but it kept coming back. After visiting a dermatologist several times they found the culprit MPS! After emptying the tub and re-filling.... I know just use di-chlor to get the stabilizer levels up to 20.... then just use bleach after each use..... along with a ozonator.... I have not had the slightest rash in the last 9 months.... I have read around the internet that There are people allergic to MPS ..... especially men. Good luck in finding the sourse of your rash.... I am certainly glad I found mine..... because I love the hot tub.

Ray

Thank you for sharing your info How often do you empy your tub??

John

[tony]

That is interesting. If I use bleach and the ozonator do I need to shock the spa with the non-cholorine shock? Another question..my hot tub came with defaults set to filter twice a day for 2 hrs each time. Is that necessary? I can change the settings to filter from one to 12 hrs once a day or filter twice a day. I am just a newbie and appreciate any help. This weekend I didn't need to add as much bleach as I have been. Seems to be holding longer.

I say yes. Though ozone is an oxidizer, an ozonator is not going to give you enough oxidizing power to keep the organics eliminated and from forming chloramines. Regular use of non chlorine shock will and will help your free chlorine last longer...from my experience.

Your filter set to twice a day for two hours each time is a good setting for most if you don't have a circ pump running 24/7.

[104 Degrees]

I say yes. Though ozone is an oxidizer, an ozonator is not going to give you enough oxidizing power to keep the organics eliminated and from forming chloramines. Regular use of non chlorine shock will and will help your free chlorine last longer...from my experience.

Your filter set to twice a day for two hours each time is a good setting for most if you don't have a circ pump running 24/7.

Hay tony

What if you dont use the Non chlorine shock with the bleach??

[chem geek]

In theory, an ozonator should break down organics at least as effectively as non-chlorine shock (MPS). Of course, it isn't a residual in the water so will only break down organics that get filtered through it, but the turnover rate in hot tubs / spas is pretty quick. Experience trumps theory, so if Tony finds that the combination of an ozonator with MPS has chlorine last longer than using an ozonator alone, then that would be the way to go (for those not allergic to MPS). Ozone is a VERY powerful oxidizer -- far more powerful than either MPS or chlorine -- but it's possible that ozonators don't produce enough ozone to break down enough organics.

Richard

[raydz]

I don't want to change the topic of this thread.... but introduce another possibility for your rash. Last year..... I developed a similar rash which nurses and doctors thought was "Hot Tub Itch". They put me on a number of strong medications....... but it kept coming back. After visiting a dermatologist several times they found the culprit MPS! After emptying the tub and re-filling.... I know just use di-chlor to get the stabilizer levels up to 20.... then just use bleach after each use..... along with a ozonator.... I have not had the slightest rash in the last 9 months.... I have read around the internet that There are people allergic to MPS ..... especially men. Good luck in finding the sourse of your rash.... I am certainly glad I found mine..... because I love the hot tub.

Ray

Thank you for sharing your info How often do you empy your tub??

John

[raydz]

I don't want to change the topic of this thread.... but introduce another possibility for your rash. Last year..... I developed a similar rash which nurses and doctors thought was "Hot Tub Itch". They put me on a number of strong medications....... but it kept coming back. After visiting a dermatologist several times they found the culprit MPS! After emptying the tub and re-filling.... I know just use di-chlor to get the stabilizer levels up to 20.... then just use bleach after each use..... along with a ozonator.... I have not had the slightest rash in the last 9 months.... I have read around the internet that There are people allergic to MPS ..... especially men. Good luck in finding the sourse of your rash.... I am certainly glad I found mine..... because I love the hot tub.

Ray

Thank you for sharing your info How often do you empy your tub??

John

I empty the hot tub every three months. An interesting thing about my reaction to MPS is that it did take about two months to react to it. But now even after a refill.... a small amount of MPS will cause a rash within hours.

[104 Degrees]

I empty the hot tub every three months. An interesting thing about my reaction to MPS is that it did take about two months to react to it. But now even after a refill.... a small amount of MPS will cause a rash within hours.

Is the rash all over your body?? or just the same parts everytime??

Thanks John

[tony]

In theory, an ozonator should break down organics at least as effectively as non-chlorine shock (MPS). Of course, it isn't a residual in the water so will only break down organics that get filtered through it, but the turnover rate in hot tubs / spas is pretty quick. Experience trumps theory, so if Tony finds that the combination of an ozonator with MPS has chlorine last longer than using an ozonator alone, then that would be the way to go (for those not allergic to MPS). Ozone is a VERY powerful oxidizer -- far more powerful than either MPS or chlorine -- but it's possible that ozonators don't produce enough ozone to break down enough organics.

Richard

For about three years I sanitized with chlorine, ozone and Nature2/Frog and shocked with chlorine when I showed signs of combined chlorine which normally would be every other week. I now use only chlorine and shock weekly with MPS. I've disconnected my ozonator and stopped using the silver cartridges. Though I found that ozone and silver helped manage my water, I didn't like the damage ozone was doing and because I am a regular soaker, I don't find the silver helps me much. I switched to regular use of MPS from information you had posted regarding maintaining with non chlorine shock vs shocking with chlorine to eliminate combined chlorine. It has worked wonderfully for me with no combined chloirne at all and my free chlorine lasts longer. No more fading headrests either.

[chem geek]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised that the combined chlorine survived the ozone. Now we just need to figure out what to do for those with allergies to MPS. Bromine that is combined with some compounds is still effective as a sanitizer (that's why you only measure total bromine and don't care about "free" vs. "combined"), so that might be a better option, but organics will tend to build up without MPS. Perhaps the use of enzymes with bromine might help and be an option for those with allergies to MPS. And by enzymes, I don't mean "enzyme-only" systems, but the more traditional enzymes used to break down oils and other organics to prevent scum lines. The enzyme is a catalyst so speeds up the oxidiation of organics, but it is still the oxidizer itself (i.e. chlorine or bromine) that does the actual oxidizing. I'm not sure how well these work at controlling combined chlorine, however.

What sort of damage was the ozone doing?

Richard

[dave nh]

Richard,

What is the difference between Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (non chlorine shock) and MPS? are they similar, any advantages to using either one over the other?

[chem geek]

Richard,

What is the difference between Potassium Peroxymonosulfate (non chlorine shock) and MPS? are they similar, any advantages to using either one over the other?

They are the same and peroxymonosulfate and persulfate are synonyms for peroxyMonoPerSulfate (the "per" is important and is the "P" in MPS but is not in all synonym names). The actual non-chlorine shock compound is a salt containing the MPS portion. It's K2SO4•KHSO4•2KHSO5 where the third component (KHSO5) is the MPS while the first two are potassium sulfate and potassium hydrogen sulfate and are not oxidizers (think of them as "packaging" for the MPS).

[tony]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm surprised that the combined chlorine survived the ozone. Now we just need to figure out what to do for those with allergies to MPS. Bromine that is combined with some compounds is still effective as a sanitizer (that's why you only measure total bromine and don't care about "free" vs. "combined"), so that might be a better option, but organics will tend to build up without MPS. Perhaps the use of enzymes with bromine might help and be an option for those with allergies to MPS. And by enzymes, I don't mean "enzyme-only" systems, but the more traditional enzymes used to break down oils and other organics to prevent scum lines. The enzyme is a catalyst so speeds up the oxidiation of organics, but it is still the oxidizer itself (i.e. chlorine or bromine) that does the actual oxidizing. I'm not sure how well these work at controlling combined chlorine, however.

What sort of damage was the ozone doing?

Richard

Ozone does a number on headrests, underside of covers...my first set of headrests lasted three years. This second set has had a year of ozone and a year without, but look good. No fading anymore at all and no signs of deterioration.

[104 Degrees]

For the last month i have only used one tablespoon(i thought this could be the rash) of the non clorine shock and about a teaspoon a day in dichlor. I have been in the tub in the last two weeks about two hours worth. I have three red bumps where i get them on my right side waist band.

So now i'm going to use the bleach and see what happens for the next month. the two CYA test came back to low to read. i'm also put in a tablespoon of the non clholine shock and will do so every week till i dump the tub the first of the year.

Seeya soon.

[waterbear]

Yes, MPS is Potassium monopersulfate and is non-chlorine shock, but you should be able to check the ingredients for monopersulfate. That's very interesting that some are allergic to it. Except for being an oxidizer, it's relatively benign. I wonder if it's the oxidizer part, persulfate (SO5), that's the issue or the sulfate (SO4). If the rash comes up soon after using the non-chlorine shock (rather than at the end of the week after the shock should be fully dissipated), then it's the oxidizer part that is the problem. If the rash comes up only after continued use over many weeks or months and doesn't flare up only soon after addition of MPS, then it may be the sulfates since those just build up over time.

Sensitivity to MPS is well documented and may actually account for some of the sensitivity reactions to bromine, since MPS is commonly used as an oxidizer in bromine systems.

[104 Degrees]

So now i'm going to use the bleach and see what happens for the next month. the two CYA test came back to low to read. i'm also put in a tablespoon of the non clholine shock and will do so every week till i dump the tub the first of the year.

Seeya soon.

I have been using Bleach for the last week. My rash seems to be going away.if you remember,i only get it on two small spots everytime. My rash can also be the scent that i use?? i have not put that in since the Bleach use but i'm going to start using it today to see.

Hi Waterbear.