Ecosmarte System Pros And Cons

[Dennis]

I am considering the Ecosmarte System for a pool. I spoke to a gunite pool builder in Austin and he is very satisfied with these sysems (Thanks Pat). I also talked with my fiberglass pool manufacture and he said he was very concerned about copper staining the pool. I don't think he has any experience with this system. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with the Ecosmarte System.

[Brulan1]

I am considering the Ecosmarte System for a pool. I spoke to a gunite pool builder in Austin and he is very satisfied with these sysems (Thanks Pat). I also talked with my fiberglass pool manufacture and he said he was very concerned about copper staining the pool. I don't think he has any experience with this system. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with the Ecosmarte System.

The 1st ecosmarte we sold for a spa the guy forgot to put the setting on Ionize and Copper was released to the extent he turned blue. thankgod he was humourous about it because he could of gotten copper poisoning.

[jeff grotte]

I am considering the Ecosmarte System for a pool. I spoke to a gunite pool builder in Austin and he is very satisfied with these sysems (Thanks Pat). I also talked with my fiberglass pool manufacture and he said he was very concerned about copper staining the pool. I don't think he has any experience with this system. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with the Ecosmarte System.

I have used the ecosmarte system for 6 years, and i find if i follow thier instructions and not my pool company friends the system has allways worked great, the problem is that the pool stores are always trying to sell un needed chemicals and run the ph higher that the 6.8 that ecosmarte wants. Jeff Grotte

[Dennis]

Thanks for the info Jeff. I am 90% sure I will go with the Ecosmarte.

[Brulan1]

Thanks for the info Jeff. I am 90% sure I will go with the Ecosmarte.

Well the only problem is the 6.8-7.0 which leaves a tiny window for mistake. Keeping a 20,000 gallon pool between the two is hard to do. Now they make a carbondioxide buffer for the PH so no worries.

[DKN1997]

Well the only problem is the 6.8-7.0 which leaves a tiny window for mistake. Keeping a 20,000 gallon pool between the two is hard to do. Now they make a carbondioxide buffer for the PH so no worries.

agreed, especially in a gunite (plaster,cement, what have you) you will be adding a lot of acid to keep it that low. It's not so much work in keeping that level that concerns me, it's the fact that it's pretty low. I know it's nuetral, but your heater manufacturer might have something to say about that. No heate company will warranty a heate exchanger that has a hole in it from low ph. Not saying that it will happen for certain, but when keeping traditonal levels of ph (7.2-76 like we have been doing since forever) there is more room forever, if it dips down a bit it's still above 7. mainting 7.0 leaves no room for error. bear in mind that most pool heaters have heat exchangers with multiple "passes" which is a fancy of saying that the tubes get small and the water speeds up. this can "scour" the heat exchanger and wear a hole in it with low ph. most heat exchangers are actually designed to do this a little to prevent scaling or build up in the tubes.

just saying "be careful"

Incidentally, Ecosmarte came in and did a presentation for us and they seemed very knowledgeable and the product shows promise.

[jeff grotte]

Well the only problem is the 6.8-7.0 which leaves a tiny window for mistake. Keeping a 20,000 gallon pool between the two is hard to do. Now they make a carbondioxide buffer for the PH so no worries.

agreed, especially in a gunite (plaster,cement, what have you) you will be adding a lot of acid to keep it that low. It's not so much work in keeping that level that concerns me, it's the fact that it's pretty low. I know it's nuetral, but your heater manufacturer might have something to say about that. No heate company will warranty a heate exchanger that has a hole in it from low ph. Not saying that it will happen for certain, but when keeping traditonal levels of ph (7.2-76 like we have been doing since forever) there is more room forever, if it dips down a bit it's still above 7. mainting 7.0 leaves no room for error. bear in mind that most pool heaters have heat exchangers with multiple "passes" which is a fancy of saying that the tubes get small and the water speeds up. this can "scour" the heat exchanger and wear a hole in it with low ph. most heat exchangers are actually designed to do this a little to prevent scaling or build up in the tubes.

just saying "be careful"

Incidentally, Ecosmarte came in and did a presentation for us and they seemed very knowledgeable and the product shows promise.

Does any body Know why the ph is pool and spa water is to be kept at 7.2 to 7.6

The simple answer is that that is where chlorine is effective, allways has been and always will be.

Calcium is your buffer with ECOsmarte and with ECOsmarte the Calcium is Kept Bicarbinate, which means it stays desolved when kept below 140 degrees F.

The higher the calcium level the more conductive the water is and the more Oxygen per minuite you will get.

the calcium on a spa is added when the water is changed every 6 month and the copper is only added at start up with fresh water.

then all you do is check the ph and keep it as close to 6.8 as you can. with a standard test kit only add Muratic acid if over 6.8 or the sample is orange or red. never add acid if it is yellow. If it stays yellow for a couple of weeks add small amounts of baking soda to to bring to just about orange then add a small amout of acid to get yellow, then only add small amouts of acid. to give you an idea 1 gallon of acid may last a couple of years at a cost of less than $4.00

the water will get trained to run at 6.8

Cloudy water after spaing means you need more oxygen. two ways to handle it 1 add a non chlorine shock 2 run the oxygen longer and make sure the calcium is over 400 (yes even 800 is fine)

The true benefit of ECOsmarte is sitting in a hot tub and not breathing any chemicals.

Jeff Grotte

[waterbear]

I am considering the Ecosmarte System for a pool. I spoke to a gunite pool builder in Austin and he is very satisfied with these sysems (Thanks Pat). I also talked with my fiberglass pool manufacture and he said he was very concerned about copper staining the pool. I don't think he has any experience with this system. Please let me know your thoughts and experiences with the Ecosmarte System.

I have used the ecosmarte system for 6 years, and i find if i follow thier instructions and not my pool company friends the system has allways worked great, the problem is that the pool stores are always trying to sell un needed chemicals and run the ph higher that the 6.8 that ecosmarte wants. Jeff Grotte

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff,

What gives?

In this thread you say that you are in the business with 37 years experience and that you are an ecosmarte dealer. DO you have to rely on such tactics as pretending you are a consumer to sell your stuff?

Here is the post in question.

If You want to save money on your pool look at WWW.ecosmarte.com instead of a salt chlroinator.

over time you will save money and not swim in salt and chlorine which can ruin alot of things.

Jeff Grotte with www.poolguy.com

I haven't been able to find any independent info on the EcoSmarte product. It looks great in the marketing materials from the company and dealers, but is there any non-dealer out there who is using it on their pool? I'd love to hear about it because we will be having our pool done in about 3 weeks and I like the idea, just not sure it's legit enough vs. the tried and true chlorine (salt generated). I read some pretty nasty stuff about EcoSmarte at http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff155840.htm, so I'm not too sure what to think at this point...

Phil

Hi Phil

How did your pool install go.

My Background is 37 years in the pool bussiness

started at 13 worked service, installation of stainless steel concrete pools then vinyl pools next as a Distributor of swimming pool Items, next my own pool company www.poolguy.com and now I am the trainer at ECOsmarte planet friendly Inc. Since my last posting we have sold at least 5000 more pool systems world wide and we came up with a replacement for ZEOlite in sand filters, now we have Crushed glass that is much easer for the pool industry to copy us, which they always do. You can keep track of our dealer base at www.ecosmarte.com it grows almost every day. the reason you may not heard much about us from local pool company is that most of our dealers start after thier customers have have not been in for chemicals on a regular bases and the dealer will find that we will slowly erode thier customer base. The sharper Dealer will understand that not everybody wants chlorine/salt. for those pool people that still sell salt. wake up salt is just another name for chlorine.

Thier is a better way

So, what gives? Certainly not honesty!

btw, calcium bicarbonate does not exist except at ions in water so the claim made about calcium bicarbonate is pseudoscience!

Ever wonder why the pH needs to be so low? It's so the copper won't stain the pool or turn hair and fingernails green! Ask any good plaster guy what running your pH at 6.8 continuously will do then ask the manufacturers of varous heaters what that will do to the warrenty on the heaters!

[jdskycaster]

This is interesting. I have heard about the warranties being voided when I purchased my Ecosmarte so I called Raypak. They said as long as I kept the water at a neutral PH then I would be fine. They said nothing about having to keep it above neutral to keep the warranty intact.

Another question I have is how long will a heat exchanger last anyway? Will it last longer with chlorine running through it given PH levels are maintained in the acceptable range? My previous pool was chlorine and I swapped a heater at 9 years due to the exchanger rotting. I religiously maintained my PH between 7.2 and 7.6. I cannot say if my current heater will last longer now that I am on Ecosmarte. I ran chlorine through it for the first 3 seasons, switched to Ecosmarte and am just starting my 5th season chlorine free. That means if it makes it through this season it will be 8 years old. Hoping to make it past the 9 year mark with this heater but if all I get is 8-9 years out of it I would not be disappointed due to my past experience with pool heaters. If anyone knows of a residential pool heater with a 10 year warranty on the heat exchanger forward the link.

Everyone not using Ecosmarte wants indisputable proof that it works. Everyone bashing it continues to point out things like "your heater warranty will be void". I want some indisputable proof that the system absolutely causes premature heat exchanger failure due to maintaining PH of 6.8 - 7.2. The water in my 20 x 44 vinyl lined pool stays rock solid at 7.0. By September each of the last 2 seasons I started to wonder why I continued to test it 2x per week. I will continue to post my experience with the system and let you know how long this heater lasts.

Take care,

JD

[chem geek]

JD,

On another forum you asked, "I would also be thankful for any links to the scientific reports stating that this system in fact will not control algae, bacteria and viruses in my pool." I posted a few links to reports about copper kill times in this post on that forum. The main issue is a lack of prevention of disease transmission from person-to-person and very slow inactivation of viruses, not uncontrolled bacteria growth. It's a spectrum of risk and not using an EPA-registered sanitizer is riskier, but doesn't mean the pool is teaming with bacteria. That is why having a fast-acting bulk sanitizer is more of an issue/requirement for public pools than private ones.

Richard

[jdskycaster]

JD,

On another forum you asked, "I would also be thankful for any links to the scientific reports stating that this system in fact will not control algae, bacteria and viruses in my pool." I posted a few links to reports about copper kill times in this post on that forum. The main issue is a lack of prevention of disease transmission from person-to-person and very slow inactivation of viruses, not uncontrolled bacteria growth. It's a spectrum of risk and not using an EPA-registered sanitizer is riskier, but doesn't mean the pool is teaming with bacteria. That is why having a fast-acting bulk sanitizer is more of an issue/requirement for public pools than private ones.

Richard

Richard,

Thanks much for the information in the previous thread. I did read through the links you posted. Some very good info for thought but there was also a lot of confusing rhetoric about the product also. I guess what I was hoping for was a definitive study or report by an independent third party which quantifies the risks associated with using a system like Ecosmarte without additional sanitizers in a private pool. I know there is a small chance of something like this existing since most studies would be done with regard to public pools as safety is a much larger concern and lawsuits are common.

I have had 4 trouble-free seasons with the system but am also the type of person who continues to learn whenever possible. If I am taking a larger than anticipated risk with this system I would be totally open to any data of this type which demonstrates or quantifies it. Part of me also remembers growing up an my parents dairy farm where my brother and I would jump in the algae infested stock tanks just to cool off on hot summer days. We did not have a pool. We also swam in a neighbors pond. Looking back now I would hate to think what that water may have had in it as it was also a primary water source for hundreds of cattle. I am not trying to make light of the importance of proper water maintenance but rather how there are several ways to look at a problem or an opportunity.

Thanks again for your posts and information. It is very helpful.

Best Regards,

JD

[chem geek]

JD,

Unfortunately, you won't find the kind of survey you are looking for with private pools. Even public and commercial pool incidents aren't always reported as this varies by local health district though the CDC does try to collect outbreak information. The closest thing seen on this forum to a serious contracted illness from something approaching what could happen in a private situation (other than one hot tub lung incident) is mentioned in this post where Stacey contracted Legionnaires disease from a hotel hot tub. The water in the private spa in each room at this hotel was treated like a bathtub even though it was not changed nor sanitized after each use and that led to bacterial growth. This probably wasn't an issue of person-to-person transmission, but inadequate sanitation.

You are right that swimming in pond water or any other open water source (lakes, streams, ocean, etc.) will have lots of bacteria and other pathogens. People do sometimes gets sick, but most do not. However, when they do get sick, it can sometimes be fatal (see this link) though this is extremely rare. Using EcoSmarte or other metal ion system (e.g. Nature2) is far better than not having any sanitation at all. Therefore, the already low risk is even lower. It is not, unfortunately, something easily quantifiable. My personal take on it is that with such systems it's mostly person-to-person transmission that would be the issue (and for copper, it's very slow inactivation of viruses) -- the larger number of people you have in the pool at the same time, the greater the risk, which is why public pools have to focus on this. It's not just lawsuits, but having one sick person infect dozens if not hundreds. In today's public pools, this problem is mostly seen with Cryptosporidium since it is very resistant to chlorine, and to a lesser extent Giardia.

Quite frankly, the thing that annoys me the most about EcoSmarte is their pseudo-science and inaccurate descriptions on their website. In any event, I'm glad the system is working for you and it apparently works for others but not everyone.

Richard

[A Believer]

Just thought I'd add my small voice to the Ecosmarte debate. I'm a new pool owner in Canada and I was considering the Ecosmarte system for some time. I had read through these and other forums where so many pool junkies and other naysayers were damning the product... and a couple had actual merit. Enough to concern me. So I called them up and spoke with a very helpful person who insisted the Ecosmarte system could be installed essentially into any current chlorine or salt based system without any hassles and un-installed just as simply if I wasn't happy. My biggest drawback was that being in Canada I wanted to be sure their 60 day money-back guarantee would be enough time to get it ordered, shipped, installed, and run within that window. The EcoSmarte agent promptly replied to my email with a brochure, the manual, and a written extension on their guarantee basically giving me the whole season to try it. He also gave me detailed instructions for how to order, how to run for the first day/week/month, a contact phone number to get technical info and a hotline for once my pool was in operation.

I figured I should see if the customer service (phone number) was as expedient and valuable as the sales agent. I called, and after going through some finer details like pool size, geographic location, pool type, etc the service tech was able to give me some really helpful tips for start up and tell me about the system in depth. I promptly ordered an Ecosmarte system and awaited delivery. My pool installers had given me the 'green light' to order it and within 5 minutes they had the electrodes added to the return line and the electronic control box screwed into the wall above it. No prob! SO FAR SO GOOD! My pool installer was anxious to see this in action...I think he secretly wanted to see it fail, because he had tried to sell me a Zodiac Salt water system.

I had several hurdles to overcome before I got my pool into the conditions needed to "GO LIVE" with the Ecosmarte system. I needed Phosphates removed, calcium added, chlorine at zero, pH at 6.8, etc. This took about 3 or 4 calls to tech support and every call was invaluable to me. (Example. They told me to go to the nursery to buy 20 lbs of aluminum sulfate to remove phosphates. That saved me about $75 right there as opposed to getting something from the Pool store.) Once my pool was ready to GO I flipped the IONIZE switch on to activate the copper electrodes. That was on June 21st. I ran it on copper for about 24 hours over the course of 3 days before I got it to the .7ppm level they required. Then I switched it to oxidize. They claimed that once a week you would need to switch it to IONIZE and the other 5 days you would run it on OXIDIZE. Here it is, August 20th (2 months later) and I haven't had to even add copper yet! It's been running on OXIDIZE the entire summer! My copper levels haven't fallen, and my pH has stayed consistently at 6.8. (Yes, I called tech support to see if there was something wrong but it has been determined that I just have a very stable environment around my pool). I've had two or three big pool parties, but mostly its just my family of 4 swimming throughout the day.

Still, I remembered the very valid arguments made here about sanitization. Sure copper kills the algae, but what about the bacteria? You can't see the bacteria!

While Ecosmarte agents deny that I should be concerned about slow kill speed of copper on bacteria, I respectfully considered some of the comments already made here and I have been compensating by adding non-chlorine shock (peroxysulfate I think it is) to my pool a couple times per month. Not much, just under 2 cups each time. That might not be enough for you chemistry gurus but I have to tell you, I am totally satisfied with the quality of my water and my pool installers are amazed too. After all, the non-chlorine shock was only $59.95 for the tub and that's all I've had to spend on it all season!

So. Season one almost done. I say that's long enough to determine that their claims have merit insofar as our pool is concerned. There is no question my circumstance is a 'best case scenario'. I've heard some horror stories too. Heck, maybe next season you'll hear mine. All I can say is, for me... I wouldn't have it any other way, and everyone who has swam (swum?) in my pool has commented on how awesome it is to swim in bottled water.

Cheers,

A Believer

[deya]

Just thought I'd add my small voice to the Ecosmarte debate. I'm a new pool owner in Canada and I was considering the Ecosmarte system for some time. I had read through these and other forums where so many pool junkies and other naysayers were damning the product... and a couple had actual merit. Enough to concern me. So I called them up and spoke with a very helpful person who insisted the Ecosmarte system could be installed essentially into any current chlorine or salt based system without any hassles and un-installed just as simply if I wasn't happy. My biggest drawback was that being in Canada I wanted to be sure their 60 day money-back guarantee would be enough time to get it ordered, shipped, installed, and run within that window. The EcoSmarte agent promptly replied to my email with a brochure, the manual, and a written extension on their guarantee basically giving me the whole season to try it. He also gave me detailed instructions for how to order, how to run for the first day/week/month, a contact phone number to get technical info and a hotline for once my pool was in operation.

I figured I should see if the customer service (phone number) was as expedient and valuable as the sales agent. I called, and after going through some finer details like pool size, geographic location, pool type, etc the service tech was able to give me some really helpful tips for start up and tell me about the system in depth. I promptly ordered an Ecosmarte system and awaited delivery. My pool installers had given me the 'green light' to order it and within 5 minutes they had the electrodes added to the return line and the electronic control box screwed into the wall above it. No prob! SO FAR SO GOOD! My pool installer was anxious to see this in action...I think he secretly wanted to see it fail, because he had tried to sell me a Zodiac Salt water system.

I had several hurdles to overcome before I got my pool into the conditions needed to "GO LIVE" with the Ecosmarte system. I needed Phosphates removed, calcium added, chlorine at zero, pH at 6.8, etc. This took about 3 or 4 calls to tech support and every call was invaluable to me. (Example. They told me to go to the nursery to buy 20 lbs of aluminum sulfate to remove phosphates. That saved me about $75 right there as opposed to getting something from the Pool store.) Once my pool was ready to GO I flipped the IONIZE switch on to activate the copper electrodes. That was on June 21st. I ran it on copper for about 24 hours over the course of 3 days before I got it to the .7ppm level they required. Then I switched it to oxidize. They claimed that once a week you would need to switch it to IONIZE and the other 5 days you would run it on OXIDIZE. Here it is, August 20th (2 months later) and I haven't had to even add copper yet! It's been running on OXIDIZE the entire summer! My copper levels haven't fallen, and my pH has stayed consistently at 6.8. (Yes, I called tech support to see if there was something wrong but it has been determined that I just have a very stable environment around my pool). I've had two or three big pool parties, but mostly its just my family of 4 swimming throughout the day.

Still, I remembered the very valid arguments made here about sanitization. Sure copper kills the algae, but what about the bacteria? You can't see the bacteria!

While Ecosmarte agents deny that I should be concerned about slow kill speed of copper on bacteria, I respectfully considered some of the comments already made here and I have been compensating by adding non-chlorine shock (peroxysulfate I think it is) to my pool a couple times per month. Not much, just under 2 cups each time. That might not be enough for you chemistry gurus but I have to tell you, I am totally satisfied with the quality of my water and my pool installers are amazed too. After all, the non-chlorine shock was only $59.95 for the tub and that's all I've had to spend on it all season!

So. Season one almost done. I say that's long enough to determine that their claims have merit insofar as our pool is concerned. There is no question my circumstance is a 'best case scenario'. I've heard some horror stories too. Heck, maybe next season you'll hear mine. All I can say is, for me... I wouldn't have it any other way, and everyone who has swam (swum?) in my pool has commented on how awesome it is to swim in bottled water.

Cheers,

A Believer

Next time some one wants to buy a system like this they should look into a copper-silver ionization unit. The silver is a far more efficient bacteriacide, anti-viral, antifungal. Be sure the bars contain a substantial amount of silver, (you can ask the manufacterer what % is in their bars). I have had the same copper and silver ionization unit for about 20 years now. The name of the company is Wailani.

I oxidize with about a gallon of chlorine about once every two weeks. This amount will vary depending on how many people swam in the pool and if my dog has jumped into it (when it is hot he does like to go in!). Since I only use chlorine and nothing else it usually all dissapates within a few hours. I used to use potassium mono persulfate (sp?) but to save money I found chlorine did the same thing and in only stays in the water for a few hours and then I am chlorine free for the rest of the time!

My son wanted to put and Ecosmarte system in but my pool and spa reapair guy talked him out of it and said that he has had to replace a few. He said it was a company that spends most of its money on marketing and franchises than it does on its actual product. He also stated that most people that purchase an Ecosmarte franchise have little experience about sanitzing pool water except for what Ecosmarte has taught them.