Totally Confused About Water Chemistry

[RFtech53]

All,

First off .... newbie. Secondly, I did find some topics on my question on this site, but it didn't give me enough to solve my issues. Please correct anything you read below that I think is right, and isn't.

I've owned a 358 gallon hot tub for about one month. I began using Chlorine. I switched 1 week ago to Bromine. I purchased a LaMotte ColorQ 7 Tab's kit so as to be able to get accurate numbers without relying on my poor color vision.

I'm using a Bromine Floater but am not sure of the proper setting yet (how "open" it should be to let the tabs dissolve.)

Two days ago, I found that my Bromine level was only .9ppm. The water was getting cloudy. The tabs haven't been dissolving fast enough, and I never put in any Bromine granules to begin a reserve. So last night, I put in the concentrated Bromine granules and checked the Bromine around 7PM. It was at about 3.8ppm. Excellent I thought.

This morning, I checked all my levels. pH is 7.9, Alk is 163, CH is 148. Bromine? .8ppm. Why did it drop so bad?

I also noticed the Alk level was only 80.

So I began by adding Alk increaser per the bottle's recommendation, in order to get it to about 120-150.

Here's my confusion. I know with the Chlorine, as it gets used, you check both Free Chlorine and Total Chlorine. When you don't have enough Free Chlorine, you Shock to free it up again.

So ... thinking Bromine might act the same way, I just shocked the tub again per the label directions on the bottle. By the way, it's a non-chlorine shock per my dealers advise.

So here the questions:

1. Did in fact the Bromine level drop overnight because it needed to be shocked?

2. Instead of Shock, do I need (or should I have ) to re-add Bromine granules until I reach the right ppm of Bromine?

3. When I add the Alk increaser before the Bromine check, does it mess with the Bromine reading?

4. What are the proper steps for checking / adjusting all levels?

5. When doing the proper steps from question 5 above, how long does one have to wait before adding the next chemical adjustment?

6. Which chemicals change the other chemical readings?

I've read to adjust the Alk first on some sites, and on others, do the pH first.

But isn't it the Alk that keeps the pH from swinging? If so, I would think one should adjust the Alk first.

I switched from Chlorine to Bromine because I got tired of having to add Chlorine every day. And I know Bromine works better in hot water. But now I can't seem to keep the Bromine level correct.

I'm hoping that once I get the Bromine level reserve to the proper level, I can adjust my floater to keep the level in the right range daily. That was the plan anyway.

Thanks in advance for helping out this newbie

Robert

[Topspeed007]

Hi.

I use Lamotte also but don't understand how you can get 0.8 or 0.9 readings with bromine? As far as I'm aware readings are in steps of 0.5. Anyway...the absolutely best thing you can do is read Waterbear's guide (sticky) to 3 step bromine. The 1st thing to do is reduce your TA to between 50 & 100 and then adjust PH to around 7.4. Once this is done I would add sodium bromide to make a bromine reserve. You can add bromine granules but it will not create a reserve bank for several days/ weeks , from what I understand, and needs daily attention until the bank is established. Once you have added the sodium bromide and PH & TA are in correct balance then you can activate the spa, by use of bleach or MPS. If you go to the pool calculator.com you can find out how much bleach to add else add MPS as per label. The bromine should exceed 10ppm and you should then run the spa with cover open until bromine drops below 10. Once this is done add the floater open 1/2 way, not e the bromine reading and then cover the spa, wait 24 hr and test bromine again, if bromine is below 2 then open floater a little more, if its too high +8, then close floater slightly.

Hope this helps

[RFtech53]

Topspeed, thanks for the reply. I'm using the newest LaMotte ColorQ 7 (from what I understand). It uses tablets for reagents, in place of the drops. Then the machine reads the color of the water. The numbers are what they are. Perhaps this is a newer version and has more resolution? I am following their instruction pamphlet precisely, going from one chemistry test to the next.

I have found however, that timing seems to make a lot of difference. For instance, if I'm doing Bromine, I take a fresh tube of tub water, put one of their DPD #1 tablets in, cap, shake ten times, slowly invert 5 times, then place it into the machine and push the button to read it. However, if I come back 5 minutes later and re-read the same tube, it might have been .9 originally, but now it's 16.4 and noticeably darker in color. So apparently, you have to read the color right after the 10 second shake and 5 second invert process. I'm going to be writing LaMotte to verify that.

In any event, I'm having issues keeping the Bromine level up from day to day. I can add granules, and it will test around 3.5 30 minutes after I do. But the next day, it will have dropped to .5 or .7 ... even with my bromine floater having about 10 open slots, and of course, bromine pucks in the floater.

One thing I'm confused about is ... when the Bromine level is low ... does that mean there's not enough Bromine in the water and I need to add more?

Or, does it mean that I have to shock the Bromine to free it up? Does the shock affect the Bromine reading?

I'm using SpaGuard chemicals from my dealer. I'm using their Enhanced Chlorinated Shock, which the bottle states is good for both Chlorine and Bromine systems, and has buffers so as not to affect the pH.

So when I add the Enhanced Shock per the bottle instructions, isn't that the same as activating the Bromine with either MPS or bleach? Shows I'm a newbie. I'm betting MPS is the same as their Enhanced Shock ... I'm not home to read the bottle to see what the chemical is in the bottle.

I can understand that perhaps my Bromine reserve isn't steady enough yet. But what I'm concerned about is the way it's read. Back to my question above ... if it's low, is it because I don't have enough Bromine in the water. Or is it because it needs to be shocked and reactivated.

In other words, does the Bromine level read differently depending on how much "activator" (bleach or MPS) is in the water?

To respond to one of your comments above, I don't believe the Bromine level has ever read as high as 10 on my LaMotte. Perhaps that means I've never built up the reserve properly yet, and that's why my levels keep dropping so badly from day to day?

I have read Waterbears post about running a 2 or 3 step Bromine system. And I printed it out and keep it handy But the one thing I don't think it answers is my question about the Bromine reading. I'm confused about if I'm low on Bromine when my meter says I am. Or, does it read low on Bromine because I don't have enough activator in the water?

Remember, I came from a Chlorine system ... so I'm probably confusing how one works with how the other works (total Chlorine versus free Chlorine ... versus Bromine.)

Help!

[arches2]

Bromine is active sanitizer and what you are testing. The bromine when it oxidizes waste converts to Bromide (over simplifying). The 2 oz Sodium Bromide you add at start up is not bromine, it's bromide and therefore just a salt sitting in the water. You need to add shock (bleach, mps, dichlor, etc) to activate (convert) the bromide into bromine. This becomes and cycle as the bromine oxides and converts back to bromine and you shock again. Make sure you added sodium bromine on start up and not the bromating granules that is used as a sanitizer. It should say "Sodium Bromide" and that ingredient should be well over 90%.

The bromine tablets are just bromide and diclor (if i'm understanding it correctly) and the dichlor activated the bromide in the tablet when it disolves. (Edit: i was wrong, see Waterbears correction in post #10 below) I may be off on this a little but that's basically what it's doing. In addition to bleach / MPS, ozone can also convert bromide into bromine which is why it works well with the three step program. If you aren't maintaining a bromine level you need to increase the floater setting and probably need to add bleach / mps after use. Remember the floater is not designed to keep up with bather load. it's there to maintain a bromine level when the tub is not in use. You still have to shock occasionally and add some everyuse (if your floater can't keep up, mine typically does becuase i have a very low bather load).

I don't have any knowledge about your test system. Also, don't worry about TA. Like Topspeed said, 50+ is fine. Mine usually runs in the 50-70 range. I don't ever raise it if it's above 50. I've never had to lower mine because the bromine tabes are net acidic.

[RFtech53]

Now that I'm home, here's what I'm using:

SpaGuard Brominating Concentrate: 82.5% Sodium Dichloro-s triazinetrione / 14.7% Sodium Bromide (this is what I used to build the reserve)

SpaGuard Brominating Tablets: 96% 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (in the floater)

SpaGuard Enhanced Shock: 58.2% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (to shock the tub every few days)

Those three chemicals also have "other ingredients" listed in certain percentages, but there's no listings as to what chemicals they are.

Tonight when I got home and checked the Br level, I was surprised that it was high at about 9.2. Perhaps the tub has finally got it's reserve going. I'll keep monitoring and see what happens over the next few days.

I guess now it's a trial and error method of putting in a little shock every so often, and setting the floater to keep the bromine level in the acceptable range.

If anyone else has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

[chem geek]

It sounds like you may be OK now, but just so you know you normally build up a bromide reserve/bank by adding sodium bromide, not "brominating concentrate" which in your case is a combination of Dichlor and some sodium bromide. Specifically, it has 4.5 chlorine for every bromide so when you use it initially before building up a bromide bank you will be getting mostly chlorine instead of bromine.

Since the test kit does not distinguish between chlorine and bromine, the fact that you weren't registering as much of either before probably had nothing to do with the lack of a bromide bank, but rather that you weren't adding enough oxidizer to handle the bather waste, but now you have "caught up" with that.

[RFtech53]

Thanks Chem Geek.

I'll attribute some of my lack of understanding to my dealer's employee. He's the one selling me what he says I need. He's also the one who told me I could use (as several of their other customers have) TriChlor tablets in a floater ... back when I was on a Chlorine system. I'm a full believer in reading users manuals, and informed him the other day that the users manual (plus many online forums) clearly state that using TriChlor tablets in a hot tub will VOID the warranty. He stated that since they are the warranty, not to worry ... they would never deny a claim on my tub based on my use of TriChlor.

I've done customer service on electronics for over 35 years, so I understand their willingness to stand behind my tub with what they feel is the right way to go. However, when a manufacturer states in BIG BOLD LETTERS NOT TO USE TRICHLOR, I go by what they say.

So ... some of my problem with not understanding the proper use of chemicals is due to not feeling as if I can trust my dealer's employee. However, when he gave me the Brominating Concentrate, I "assumed" this was the right thing to build up the reserve. Sounding now like it wasn't.

So let me ask a couple more questions.

Now that the Bromine level is in an acceptable range (actually it's slightly higher than I want), do I use Oxidizer (SpaGuard Enhanced Shock) to regulate that Bromine level?

In other words, will the Oxidizer cause the Bromine level reading to fluctuate?

Secondly, since my LaMotte ColorQ 7 reads the following:

Free Chlorine (DPD) 0-10 ppm 100 Total Chlorine (DPD) 0-10 ppm 100 Bromine (DPD) - uses the Chlorine (DPD) reagent set 0-22 ppm 100 pH 6.5-8.5 100 Total Alkalinity 0-250 ppm 100 Calcium Hardness 0-400 ppm 100 Cyanuric Acid 0-125 ppm 100

... do I care about reading Free or Total Chlorine since I now have a Bromine system?

[RFtech53]

Sorry .... the above post was supposed to include a "table". But that didn't post properly. So everywhere you see a chemical, you see the number "100". All that meant was that the LaMotte comes with "100" tablets to do each test.

[chem geek]

You adjust your bromine tab floater's output so that it handles at least the background bromine level in between soaks. If you don't soak much, say only once or twice a week, then this setting will be low so as just to maintain a bromine level (roughly around 4 ppm bromine or 2 ppm chlorine if your LaMotte only reads in chlorine units). If you soak more often such as every day or two, then you have a choice as to whether you want more of the oxidation of your bather waste to come from the bromine tabs (in which case you turn up the output from the feeder) or whether you want more to come from your adding oxidizer after each soak. If you use an inexpensive oxidizer such as regular chlorine bleach (6% or the newer 8.25%), then that's the least expensive way to go. SpaGuard Enhanced Shock is 58.2% Dichlor so is OK to use, but is much more expensive (and I don't know what the other ingredients are).

As for chlorine test kits, the Free Chlorine part of the test will measure Total Bromine but in chlorine units. Just multiply your chlorine reading by 2.25 to get ppm Total Bromine. The Total Chlorine reading will be the same as your Free Chlorine reading. Basically, monobromamine will measure as Free Chlorine in the test, but since it's still a disinfectant this is OK. Your regular oxidizing with chlorine after each soak should get rid of it, mostly so you won't smell it as much.

[waterbear]

Now that I'm home, here's what I'm using:

SpaGuard Brominating Concentrate: 82.5% Sodium Dichloro-s triazinetrione / 14.7% Sodium Bromide (this is what I used to build the reserve)

This is 82.5% dichlor which is chlorine. You only have 14.7 % sodium bromide which is NOT enough to build a bromide bank!

SpaGuard Brominating Tablets: 96% 1-Bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (in the floater)

Standard BDCMH bromine tabs. They contain both chlorine and bromine.

SpaGuard Enhanced Shock: 58.2% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione (to shock the tub every few days)

This is standard dichlor, it's stabilized chlorine (but with a bromine system the stabilizer does not matter).

Bottom line is this. If you have not created a satisfactory bromide reserve you have a chlorine tub and not a bromine tub. However, you cannot differentiate which it is by the way we test water. What is important is that you maintain a proper level of sanitizer in the water.

The bromine tablets are just bromide and diclor (if i'm understanding it correctly) and the dichlor activated the bromide in the tablet when it disolves. I may be off on this a little but that's basically what it's doing.

Close but no cigar. Bromine tablets contain organic bromine and chlorine (attached to a dimethylhydantion molecule and directly add hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer), bromide ions, and chlorine, which then oxidizes the bromide into hypobromous acid. The majority of the hypobromous acid added by the tabs is direct and not from the oxidation of bromide. The amount of bromide added is not that large, which is why it can take several weeks or more to create a bromide bank using only bromine tablets. This is why sodium bromide is added on filling. It needs to be plain sodium bromide, not a mixture of mostly dichlor with only a small amount of sodium bromide. That type of product is designed to be does daily and offers NO advantage over using chlorine! The tablets contain no inorganic bromide (sodium bromide) and no dichlor, btw.

[arches2]

The bromine tablets are just bromide and diclor (if i'm understanding it correctly) and the dichlor activated the bromide in the tablet when it disolves. I may be off on this a little but that's basically what it's doing.

Close but no cigar. Bromine tablets contain organic bromine and chlorine (attached to a dimethylhydantion molecule and directly add hypobromous acid (bromine sanitizer), bromide ions, and chlorine, which then oxidizes the bromide into hypobromous acid. The majority of the hypobromous acid added by the tabs is direct and not from the oxidation of bromide. The amount of bromide added is not that large, which is why it can take several weeks or more to create a bromide bank using only bromine tablets. This is why sodium bromide is added on filling. It needs to be plain sodium bromide, not a mixture of mostly dichlor with only a small amount of sodium bromide. That type of product is designed to be does daily and offers NO advantage over using chlorine! The tablets contain no inorganic bromide (sodium bromide) and no dichlor, btw.

Thanks WB i knew it wasn't exactly right. I'm still learning the theory of why we do what we do and the best way to learn it to try and expain it right and be corrected on what we misunderstand.

[RFtech53]

Guys,

I'm trying hard to understand it all. BTW ... I'm 59, and an electronics engineering technician .... just to give you some background. I've got some smarts ... but now wish I'd gotten a BS in chemistry.

I'm understanding waterbear's comment about not doing the Sodium Bromine correctly when I switched from a chlorine system to a bromine system. I'll chalk that up to listening to my dealer's employee.

Let me add that when I got home last night, I checked the Bromine level. It was 2.3. So I added a tablespoon of the shock I'd mentioned above. One hour later, the Bromine level checked 10.6.

This also confuses me. It does seem to support my assumption that the shock does affect the Bromine level. Correct? so how does one know that you have "enough" Bromine in the tub? It almost seems to me that it's a toss-up between Bromine and Shock. How much of each is right?

So where do I go from here. Being it's going on fall/winter in Iowa, I'd rather not drain the tub and start over. Should I go out and find pure Sodium Bromide and add it to the tub? If so, how much?

However, it also confuses me into this ... does this mean I have enough Bromine in the water now?

And .... is it as simple as ... learn how much shock to use in order to keep the Bromine reading between 3.0 and 6.0?

Lastly ... how do I know how to set the floater, since the addition (or subtraction) of Shock changes the Bromine readings?

Is it as simple as .... use more Shock, and set the floater to less of an opening? OR ... use less shock and set the floater to more opening?

I'm sorry to bother you all with this, as I'm sure to you guru's it seems more than obvious. And I wish I could trust my dealer. But from previous postings, you know why I don't.

[chem geek]

When you add any oxidizer, be it chlorine bleach, Dichlor (as in your "shock" product), non-chlorine shock (MPS), they will all oxidize bromide to bromine. As for how much, you can use The Pool Calculator near the bottom to see the "Effects of adding chemicals" assuming you set your spa "Size" properly at the top. Just note that the bromine level is 2.25 times the chlorine level. For example, if I put in 358 gallons, then I get the following relationships:

1 fluid ounce 6% bleach is 1.3 ppm FC or 1.3*2.25 = 2.9 ppm Total Bromine

1 ounce weight of Dichlor is 12 ppm FC or 12*2.25 = 27 ppm Total Bromine

They don't list non-chlorine shock, but 43% MPS is half as strong as Dichlor by weight so 1 ounce is 6 ppm FC or 13 ppm Total Bromine

It gets more complicated when you use a product that is a mixture of otherwise pure chemicals. The 58.2% Dichlor by weight "shock" product IF it were only 58.2% Dichlor and the rest was not an oxidizer would be for 1 tablespoon (which is 0.5 ounces):

(1/2)*12*0.582 = 3.5 ppm FC or 3.5*2.25 = 7.9 ppm Total Bromine

Note that the amount the bromine actually went up was 10.6-2.3 = 8.3 ppm so this is consistent with what was just calculated above (I had implicitly assumed that an ounce weight equaled an ounce volume and for Dichlor that's approximately true). So apparently, the other ingredients in your "shock" product are inert filler and a complete waste of money.

As for whether to use an oxidizer to make bromine from bromide or whether to use a bromine product directly be it tabs or brominating concentrate, it doesn't matter. The lowest cost approach is to use chlorine bleach to oxidize bromide to bromine. The only other product you need is bromine tabs to automatically create a background level of bromine for you by virtue of their slowly dissolving.

You do not need to add a pure sodium bromide product at this point. With continued use of bromine tabs and some of the bromide you put in from the brominating concentrate, you're probably OK. It's not a big deal anyway if you have some chlorine instead of bromine -- they are both disinfectants. In the future, just follow the 3-step bromine procedure waterbear outlined in the sticky Bromine for Beginners and avoid buying these other more expensive products. All you really need are bromine tabs and chlorine bleach (you can use Dichlor as the oxidizer if you really want to, say to avoid dealing with liquid that can splash and bleach your clothes).

Yes, it is as simple as just learning how much you need to shock to get the bromine to be between 3 and 6 ppm. What is a little tricky is to adjust your bromine tab dispenser first so that it keeps this sort of background level in between soaks and then to add an oxidizer after your soak to handle bather load above and beyond this background amount. So for setting the floater, see what happens to the bromine level when you do not use the spa. If it tends to drop, then open up the floater, if it tends to rise, then lower its setting. Basically, just set the floater so that the bromine is maintained between 3 and 6 ppm when you are not using the spa.

And yes, if you are soaking frequently, say every day or two, then you can balance between the floater setting and how much you add after your soak. Which way to go is completely up to you. If you had not already purchased so many tabs, then you would normally just set the floater for the low background bromine usage amount when you weren't using the spa and you would use chlorine bleach after your soak to make more bromine from the bromide bank. That's the least expensive approach. However, since you purchased lots of tabs already, you can go through them faster if you want so that you don't need to add as much oxidizer after each soak. It's completely up to you how to balance this out. If, on the other hand, you didn't soak very much (say once or twice a week or less), then you'd want the floater to only handle the background bromine loss and not handle your bather load.

[RFtech53]

Thanks ChemGeek. I believe it's all coming together. I'll also seek out the raw chemicals you mention in place of the ones I've been buying that have extra's I don't need.

As for usage, it's me and the wife pretty much every night for 20-30 minutes, 358 gallons, with the water temp at 102°F.

If I'm understanding you right ... since I'm now using the Bromine tabs in the floater (a combination of Bromide and DiChlor), I'm already putting Bromide and Chlorine into the tub ... and the DiChlor in the tabs turn the Bromide into Bromine. Also, that's putting some amount of Chlorine into the water.

So I can continue that route, and then figure out how much Chlorine I need after each soak in order to keep the level of Bromine reading in the correct range. Correct?

Should the floater be able to be adjusted to keep the Bromine level between the 3.0 and 6.0 range by itself?

Now ... do I never need to "shock" the tub with the Enhanced Shock the dealer told me to use once a week? I know from past trial and error, that this sends the Bromine reading through the roof. If I do still have to Shock the tub once a week, then I'm guessing I take out the floater, and wait for the Bromine levels to come back down to an acceptable range before re-entering the tub?

Along that same line ... the Brominating Concentrate bottle talks about using 4X the normal amount to "super sanitize" the tub on a weekly basis (for basic use residential spas). In my mind, considering its ingredients that's the same as shocking the tub with either the Enhanced Shock ... or just a heavier dose of Chlorine Bleach. Correct?

[chem geek]

Bromine tabs (at least the BCDMH ones) are a combination of bromine and chlorine; there is no bromide in them. So the chlorine that gets released oxidizes some bromide in the bromide bank to bromine. So the net result from the tabs is bromine.

And yes, just figure how much oxidizer (probably chlorine bleach) you need to add after your soak to have the bromine level be 3-6 ppm, probably closer to 3 ppm just before your soak.

You can use the Enhanced Shock as a general oxidizer if you want -- that is, you can use it after your soak. If you dose properly, the bromine will end up where you want it just before your next soak. Do not bother testing the water after you add oxidizer since it will be high, but only temporarily because it will soon oxidize bather waste. 2 people for 20-30 minutes is 0.67 to 1.0 bather-hours per day. That requires around 2.3 to 3.5 teaspoons of Dichlor or 3.4 to 5.0 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 4.6 to 7.0 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS) to oxidize the bather waste. In 358 gallons this is roughly 4.6 to 6.8 ppm FC or 10.3 to 15.4 Total Bromine. In practice, you won't need to add that much oxidizer since the bromine tabs will handle some of this, but it gives you a rough idea that your bather load is fairly high and therefore requires a lot of oxidizer/bromine to get rid of bather waste.

Forget shocking once a week. You are oxidizing your bather waste after every soak by adding oxidizer at that time. There is no reason to do anything extra once a week. If you use chlorine as your oxidizer, it will tend to keep your spa cleaner without needing any extra shocking. It's mostly when using non-chlorine shock or pure bromine alone (using different tabs that you are using) where a separate shocking with chlorine can be helpful.

Forget, also, about "super sanitizing". And yes, oxidizing using chlorine bleach is the same as using Dichlor except the volume is higher to get the same equivalent chlorine amount. Also, the bleach doesn't increase the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level though with your bromine spa that's not as much of an issue; it will just make the conversion of bromide to bromine take somewhat longer as the CYA level builds up if you use only Dichlor for oxidizing.

[arches2]

If I'm understanding you right ... since I'm now using the Bromine tabs in the floater (a combination of Bromide and DiChlor), I'm already putting Bromide and Chlorine into the tub ... and the DiChlor in the tabs turn the Bromide into Bromine. Also, that's putting some amount of Chlorine into the water.

As chem geek mentioned above I was off in my earlier description of the make up of the brom tabs. I edited my post above to get rid of that info so others don't get confused like i was.

Any of the chemicals you currently have will work for oxidizing along with the bleach. We use bleach because it's CHEAP. There's no reason for you to not use up what you already have other than learning a differnet amounts that need to be added and keep it straight. Once they are gone, switch to bleach which as chem geek mentioned is really easy.

I know chem geek says you don't need to worry about weekly shocking, but i have found that with my rather low bather load (just me for a half hour about 3-4 days a week) that if i add an extra cup of bleach on a saturday afternoon (so i can run the pumps for an hour or two to bring the levels back down) every other week to "shock" that it keeps the smell down a little more. It also tends to help reduce any foaming i may be getting.

[chem geek]

I know chem geek says you don't need to worry about weekly shocking, but i have found that with my rather low bather load (just me for a half hour about 3-4 days a week) that if i add an extra cup of bleach on a saturday afternoon (so i can run the pumps for an hour or two to bring the levels back down) every other week to "shock" that it keeps the smell down a little more. It also tends to help reduce any foaming i may be getting.

That's good to know. Thanks for the tip. It may be that some slower-to-oxidize chemicals get handled faster this way or that then running the pumps helps clean out the piping. Shocking is just something one does as needed so if one is maintaining chlorine regularly but an occasional shocking helps, then great. We just don't say that it's required on a weekly basis.

[waterbear]

One thing to keep in mind. If you have not established a bromide bank in the water then what you are testing when you add the dichlor is chlorine, not bromine.

Let me add that when I got home last night, I checked the Bromine level. It was 2.3. So I added a tablespoon of the shock I'd mentioned above. One hour later, the Bromine level checked 10.6.

This is about the expected FC rise I would expect from a tablespoon of dichlor in a tub your size, certainly in the ballpark. I suspect that you do not have bromide bank established or just barely so at this point.

As far as the floater, you adjust it to maintain a constant bromine level as I stated in Bromine for beginners You should not need to shock more than once a week and should not need to shock to bring up the sanitizer level. If you do then it means you don't have a bromide bank. You need to add sodium bromide. It's really pretty easy. Don't make it harder than it is. Just follow the steps in bromine for beginners. If you do that you won't have problems. Do NOT over think it and do NOT try and mix info on sanitizing with chlorine. It's apples and oranges.

Here's a hint: the hardest part is not adjusting the floater or shocking, the hardest part is adjusting the TA for pH stability (particularly if you need to lower the TA since that is a 'process' and not just adding a chemical. Adjusting the floater is a no brainer (assuming you have a bromide bank) You start at a middle setting and give it a day or two to 'stabilize'. Test your sanitizer BEFORE you soak. If the bromine is low the floater needs to be open more (you can add a bit of bleach before yo soak to activate some of your bromide bank into bromine sanitizer). If it is too high then close it up a bit (and maybe take it out for a day or two. As long as the bromine is not above 10 ppm ( or much above it) you can soak. It really just a bit of trial and error. AS Master Po said "Patience, Grasshopper" (I know you will get the reference, we are the same age!)

Final advice, run and don't walk from your bioguard dealer (spaguard is bioguard's spa line)! They are out to sell you as many chems as they can, not to help you balance your water!

[arches2]

I didn't see if you mentioned where you are but if US (and maybe canada) you can get the sodium bromide right at walmart. They are in handy little 2 oz pouches which is the perfect amount. And they're CHEAP!

However, Don't by the brom tabs at walmart. They are not round and they disolve fast / different. Since i have a flooded floater they fit but since i switched i'm having a much harder time controlling my bromine levels from the floater.

[RFtech53]

Thanks all for the great advice. The entire chemistry process seems a lot less complicated now.

Before I saw arches2's post, I ordered pure Sodium Bromine tabs and plain Sodium Bromide granules from an on-line Spa store. I'll use up my Bromine/Dichlor tabs until they're gone. Then switch to the less expensive route the next time I drain and fill.

And yes Waterbear, grasshopper is learning why the stick looks bent under the water.

Now I just need to practice keeping the water sanitized properly, with healthy pH and Ta levels.

The stick is on its own ! :-)

[waterbear]

Before I saw arches2's post, I ordered pure Sodium Bromine tabs and plain Sodium Bromide granules from an on-line Spa store. I'll use up my Bromine/Dichlor tabs until they're gone. Then switch to the less expensive route the next time I drain and fill.

And yes Waterbear, grasshopper is learning why the stick looks bent under the water.

Grasshopper,

There are two types of organic bromine, DCBMH, which contain both chlorine and bromine (This is the chemical in bromine tabs, period!) and DBDMH, which contain only bromine (and is not available in tabs, and is brand named Brilliance--who also make a conventional bromine--chlorine tab to confuse things--Thank you Arch Chemical!). DBDMH needs to be used in a floater with a screen, since is it more granular, such as the Pentair 335 floating dispenser (which is also the BEST floater for tabs because of it's adjustiability!)

With that being said, the difference between bromine tabs really boils down to the manufacturing process, the binders and fillers used, etc. Some will dissolve fast and have a lot of fillers (usually the ones found in mass markets outlets) while the somewhat more expensive ones sold online or at dealers tend to have lesst fillers, slower dissolving binders, etc and give better value for the money in the long run. It's really a matter of seeing what is available in your area and trying out the different brands. Personally, I have had good results with Proteam, O Ace Sis (Ace Hardware store brand), Leisure Time, and Rendezvous brands but since Leisure Time and Rendezvous parent company,Advantis, was bought by Arch Chemical (HTH) I don't know if they have changed their tabs or not.

[RFtech53]

Morning all. Thought I'd pass along an update. Wife and I haven't used the tub for two nights due to other commitments. So the only thing that's been going on with chemicals is the bromine floater with the Bromine/DiChlor tabs. I took readings this morning and was a bit shocked (no pun intended) to find the Br level way up. The floater is open 6 slots.

The levels are:

Br = 12.1

pH = 7.7

Alk = 79

Should I add a bit of Alk Up to get that number better?

Is there a connection between Bromine/DiChlor and Alk? Does one affect the other?

Is a Bromine level of 12.1 too high to safely use the tub? Would just getting in for 20 minutes bring the Br level back down (giving the Bromine something to "do")? I'm wondering, since the level is high, should I close down the floater a couple of slots, or leave the floater alone since maybe the level is up just because we haven't used the tub for two days? Normally we use it for 20 minutes every night.

Grasshopper not confused ... but puzzled.

[RFtech53]

P.S. this is the floater my dealer sold me. http://www.amazon.com/Industries-10-453-Deluxe-Floating-Bromine/dp/B007K9Z2JI/ref=pd_sbs_lg_41

Do you feel the Pentair 335 regulates the tabs better? To this novice, it appears the only difference between the two is that the slots are horizontal instead of vertical.

[chem geek]

Should I add a bit of Alk Up to get that number better?

Is there a connection between Bromine/DiChlor and Alk? Does one affect the other?

Is a Bromine level of 12.1 too high to safely use the tub? Would just getting in for 20 minutes bring the Br level back down (giving the Bromine something to "do")? I'm wondering, since the level is high, should I close down the floater a couple of slots, or leave the floater alone since maybe the level is up just because we haven't used the tub for two days? Normally we use it for 20 minutes every night.

Don't worry about the Total Alkalinity (TA) number. It's fine where it is and you only decrease it if your pH tends to be going up consistently or increase it if your pH tends to be going down consistently. The bromine tabs as well as the Dichlor will slowly lower the TA over time, but again don't worry about increasing it until you notice the pH dropping too quickly or if the TA gets to 50 ppm, whichever comes first.

12.1 ppm total bromine is OK, but you'll probably notice it's higher level. Soaking in 2-4 ppm Bromine is usually more enjoyable though it will get used up and you add more when you get out of the spa. One person soaking for 20 minutes would use around 5 ppm bromine in 358 gallons so would lower the level but not use it up.

Yes, the level is up because you didn't use the spa. Basically, you had the floater set to handle your daily soaks that used around 5 ppm bromine so not soaking for two nights added 5 ppm per night which explains the higher bromine level.

You have some choices of how you want to handle this kind of situation going forward. If you set your bromine floater to output at a level consistent with daily soaking, then you need to lower its level or live with higher bromine levels if you don't use the tub. Alternatively, you can set your bromine floater to the background bromine amount required when you aren't using the tub and then manually dose after each soak to handle your bather waste. This latter approach is the most flexible/dynamic as it adjusts for your varying times that you soak, but it's more work since you have to add an oxidizer after every soak. Up to you which way you want to go.

[waterbear]

P.S. this is the floater my dealer sold me. http://www.amazon.co...ef=pd_sbs_lg_41

Do you feel the Pentair 335 regulates the tabs better? To this novice, it appears the only difference between the two is that the slots are horizontal instead of vertical.

It's a copy of the Pentair. JED products are decent but if you compare their floater to the Pentair one you will see a difference in quality. Bottom line is this. If you are able to regulate your bromine properly with it then it is fine. If you are not get a Pentair one.