New Tub Owner Looking For Advice

[kajun]

Hey everyone,

just bought my first hot tub (Jacuzzi J-245). super excited to get it, should be taking delivery sometime in the next couple weeks. I've been doing a bit of research as far as water chemisty goes and i think i've more or less concluded that i'll be going with chlorine. the tub has the jacuzzi clearray system which i'm relatively unfamiliar with. The dealer was suggesting i go with spa marvel and chlorine for starters.

Being a first time tub owner, I was hoping to get some advice from actual tub owners as to what would be a good system to start with to familiarize myself with tub maintenance. Looking forward to tips and suggestions. thanks!

[waterbear]

My suggestion is to read about the dichlor/bleach method in the hot tube water chemistry section of the forum (pinned at the top), don't waste your money on the spa marvel (it is NOt a sanitizer and is totally unnecessary in a well maintained spa--or any spa for that matter), and invest in a Taylor K-2006 test kit (the best investment you will make in spa care).

The clearray system is just a UV light unit. It will have some temporary germicidal effect in the treatment chamber but no residual effect so it sill requires a primary residual sanitizer such as chlorine or bromine. It's main advantage is that is can help destroy some disinfection byproducts (chloramines) if the spa receives no sunlight. However, if the spa is outdoors it probably won't do much since you should leave the spa uncovered when shocking it and if the spa receives sunlight the UV from the sun will take care of it in most cases. If you have a problem with persistent chloramines in your spa then it could conceivably lower the total amount of chlorine you need to eliminate the chloramine but it WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO RUN A LOWER FC RESIDUAL LEVEL!!!! This is an important fact that is often overlooked or confused!

[kajun]

thanks for the reply. i've been reading a few threads on here and i saw the dichlor/bleach method, sounded like a great routine and i've already looked into buying a K-2006 as well.

good point on the clearray system, if the lid is open, the water is getting tons of UV anyway. I'm still new to water chemistry and terminology so it should be interesting for the first while, haha.

[kajun]

Waterbear, do you know if there are any warranty issues with using bleach as a method of sanitation after the initial CYA is built up? (i suppose this is a question i could ask the dealer as well)

[waterbear]

depends on the manufacuter. Same goes for the use of bromine or the use of Biguanide/peroxide systems. A lot of it has to do with whatever sanitizers the manufacturers sell under their brand (such as jacuzzi selling a rebranded Nature 2 silver/MPS "mineral" cartridge as their ProClear system.

[kajun]

depends on the manufacuter. Same goes for the use of bromine or the use of Biguanide/peroxide systems. A lot of it has to do with whatever sanitizers the manufacturers sell under their brand (such as jacuzzi selling a rebranded Nature 2 silver/MPS "mineral" cartridge as their ProClear system.

I saw that jacuzzi had proclear, it made me think of nature2 right away, hah. Okay, in any case i'll check with the dealer. i should be receiving it this friday - can't wait!

[kajun]

got the tub today. the installer went over their suggested chemical routine:

step 1: add a bottle of spa marvel

step 2: balance the water

step 3: add 2-3 tablets of 68% trichlor

step 4: (biweekly) shock with spa synergry shock

this is a weekly process. so in otherwords, i add 2-3 tablets of chlorine on monday, and then do it again next monday. i imagine FC would be through the roof for a bit and near depleted by sunday?

I emailed the dealer already asking why i should be using trichlor when all i can find is that it shouldn't be used in spas. strange that they would come up with this method of sanitation and never hear any complaints though.

[waterbear]

I am sure that they have had complaints and repairs from the trichlor use, they are just not talking about it. At pool temperatures trichlor is fairly slow dissolving, NOT true at hot tub temps and it is also very acidic. They are trying to make the system as easy as a 3 step bromine system. I guess they are selling a diluted trichlor tab because trichlor is normally considered to be 99%. I have never heard of 68% trichlor tablet (I have heard of a 67% trichlor 'shock' that is sold by Leslies). The problem is they really don't tell you what the other 325 or 33%. All we know is that it is some kind of filler. My guess it would be something like sodium carbonate to keep the pH and TA up high or possibly borax. I am sure it costs more than regular trichlor so you are paying more for a weaker product.

[kajun]

my fault, it's actually 82%. Either way, i'll see what the dealer says about it. i'm thinking i'll pick up some dichlor though. find it strange that they would advise a system that wouldn't work for sanitizing though.

[waterbear]

They sold you Spa Marvel, which is an enzyme and not needed at all! :rolleyes:

[kajun]

i actually didn't "buy" it, so to say. it was included in the kit. he actually said it wasn't totally necessary either.

[kajun]

since i can't seem to find any information supporting the use of trichlor (i didn't really expect to either), i'm gonna pick up some dichlor. since i've already used 2 trichlor tabs, should i just wait until the chlorine levels drop low and then add dichlor? also, if i'm adding it after usage, do i need to leave the lid open for a bit or do you only need to leave the lid open for shocking?

i am looking into the dichlor then bleach method. i'm thinking i may just use dichlor for now and once i'm more familiar with everything (and have received my drop kit) then i'll probably switch to dichlor-then-bleach.

[waterbear]

Be careful, Dichlor can build up CYA very quickly and that can lead to problems like an outbreak of pseudomonas or worse. If you tell me how many gallons your spa holds I can tell you how much dichlor you will need in total to bring the CYA to an acceptable levels so you can switch to bleach. You will need to drop your TA fairly low to present a constant pH rise since bleach is pH neutral while dichlor is acidic. However, you do have an acid demand test in your present test kit so it should not be difficult.

[kajun]

Waterbear,

as i'm st ill gathering information i'm curious about something. i've read that trichlor shouldn't be used because of multiple reasons. dissolves too fast, lowers ph dramatically resulting in equipment failure. i've used a total of 3 of these tablets (as i don't have anything else right now) and i'm actually finding the ph is going UP. it takes almost 2 days for one tablet to dissolve as well. the only thing i find is the chlorine levels are quite high.

i've spoken with a number of people locally that have had hot tubs for years, everyone seems to be using CHLORINE tablets without any type of equipment failure.

i'm not saying your wrong, don't get the wrong idea. i just find that there are a lot of opinions and a lot of concepts and logic tells me that chlorine granules or bromine would be the way to go. but how can so many people i know personally use chlorine tablets and not have issues?

[waterbear]

What are the ingredients in these tablets? (there are also cal hypo tabs and the ones that you talked about have other ingredents since they are not all trichlor.)

How are they testing their water?

What other chemicals are they adding and how often?

Trichlor tablets (assuming pure trichlor and not some type of unknown chemical mix) are not recommended for spa use. As you yourself noted, chlorine levels are very high. This is because trichlor dissolves too fast in hot water to make it useful for eroson feeders. Dissolving in 2 days is very fast. A trichlor tab should not dissolve for about a week

Bottom line is this. I have given you my advice. You can take it or leave it. If you think you have found a better method then please try it out for a few months and report back on how it does (along with a water test history not done with strips, and the actual chemicals that you used in the spa (we need ingredients and concentrations, not names. "Magic Mystery" chemicals are a problem since we don't know what is in them.). We are always interested in ways to make hot tub care easier while still keeping the water safe, sanitized, and balanced.

I do want to point out that you were sold a UV system for your spa, which is of dubious value on a residential spa (except for the marketing aspect where they can say that they have that feature and their competitors don't.).

[kajun]

the dealer assures me they've been using these for 12 years without problems. the tablets are spa synergy trichlor tablets. i dont know. i think it's ridiculous that there's so much debate and "confusion" around this topic. in any case, i am planning on getting a k-2006 test kit. i will then test the water while using these trichlor tabs. i'll report back. if i don't like the findings (which i'm thinking i won't) i'll choose an alternative at that point.

as for the uv system, i ended up getting the tub at a lower than retail price with it included, they didn't push it on me. i said to them "wouldn't you get the same result from...you know, sunlight?" haha

[waterbear]

the tablets are spa synergy trichlor tablets.

AHA!!!!

And they are made by Chemtura, who pushes trichlor whenever it can (It is one of their main products), has a corporate stance that 200 ppm CYA is acceptable, and likes to keep customers ignorant to boost sales for dealers that use their testing system, which is notorious for overdosing on chems and maximizing dealer profitsl The Spa Synergy is sold under Chemtura's Omni/Guardex brand (US/Canada). Other Chemtura brands include Bioguard/Spaguard, Spa Essentials, Sun, Simplicity, SoftSoak/SoftSwim, AquaChem, and PoolTime/SpaTime. This does not include their non North American brands like Bayrol and BIoLab.

Interesting tidbit. Chemtura does not sell trichlor tabs in it's flagship dealer line Bioguard/Spaguard but rather, sell dichlor as Spa Guard Chlorinating Concentrate.

Interesting tidbit. Spa Synergy is sold under the Guardex brand in Canada (and your IP address puts you in Manitoba) as an "easy system" that consists of Initiator, very expensive borax to buffer the pH mst likely in the form of boric acid (based on some data from the MSDS) which forms mostly tetraborate (borax) ions at normal spa pH); trichlor tabs mixed with more borax; and "Clear" which is nothing more than dichlor. The three products are meant to be used together as a system, and as such the borate probably does mitigate some of the problems with using trichlor in a spa to a small extent. I suspect that the trichlor tabs are just meant to be a chlorine reserve and the main chlorination comes from the dichlor. in this system.

The K-2006 costs considerably more in Canada than in the US (because of an exclusive distributorship by Lowry & Associates in Newmarket, Ontario who sets the prices there) but is still the best deal for the money. I do know of one Taylor dealer that sells mail order on the internet that has a good reputation. Piscines-Apolio in Montreal. There are probably some others.

Hope you find this helpful.

[kajun]

the tablets are spa synergy trichlor tablets.

AHA!!!!

And they are made by Chemtura, who pushes trichlor whenever it can (It is one of their main products), has a corporate stance that 200 ppm CYA is acceptable, and likes to keep customers ignorant to boost sales for dealers that use their testing system, which is notorious for overdosing on chems and maximizing dealer profitsl The Spa Synergy is sold under Chemtura's Omni/Guardex brand (US/Canada). Other Chemtura brands include Bioguard/Spaguard, Spa Essentials, Sun, Simplicity, SoftSoak/SoftSwim, AquaChem, and PoolTime/SpaTime. This does not include their non North American brands like Bayrol and BIoLab.

Interesting tidbit. Chemtura does not sell trichlor tabs in it's flagship dealer line Bioguard/Spaguard but rather, sell dichlor as Spa Guard Chlorinating Concentrate.

Interesting tidbit. Spa Synergy is sold under the Guardex brand in Canada (and your IP address puts you in Manitoba) as an "easy system" that consists of Initiator, very expensive borax to buffer the pH mst likely in the form of boric acid (based on some data from the MSDS) which forms mostly tetraborate (borax) ions at normal spa pH); trichlor tabs mixed with more borax; and "Clear" which is nothing more than dichlor. The three products are meant to be used together as a system, and as such the borate probably does mitigate some of the problems with using trichlor in a spa to a small extent. I suspect that the trichlor tabs are just meant to be a chlorine reserve and the main chlorination comes from the dichlor. in this system.

The K-2006 costs considerably more in Canada than in the US (because of an exclusive distributorship by Lowry & Associates in Newmarket, Ontario who sets the prices there) but is still the best deal for the money. I do know of one Taylor dealer that sells mail order on the internet that has a good reputation. Piscines-Apolio in Montreal. There are probably some others.

Hope you find this helpful.

interesting....haha, well thanks for all the info it's much appreciated. i'm thinking of ordering a k2006 on amazon (a lot cheaper) and getting it shipped to a small town in the states that's close to me. anyone had issues with bringing these across the border??

strangely enough, my uncle used to work for bio guard (30+ years) and he said to not use trichlor but instead, brominating concentrate.

[waterbear]

strangely enough, my uncle used to work for bio guard (30+ years) and he said to not use trichlor but instead, brominating concentrate.

Back then bromine was the best thing next to sliced bread and was being touted as an "alternative santizer" which it is. (bioguard also did some experiments with using Iodine as a sanitizer in the '70s and if I am not mistaken,actually had some products, but it did not kill algae and tended to make the water look green. The algae was not a problem because bioguard sold the herbacide simazine as a pool algaecide back then. It has since been banned for that use in N. America (but I believe they still sell it in Australia for pool use.)

If you decide to give bromine a try it is certainly easier to maintain. The Bromine for Beginners topic gives complete directions. You can still use the K2006 with bromine, btw. Just ignore the CYA test (not needed since bromine cannot be stabilized from loss by UV light like chlorine can--your Uncle might have been referring to this and to Bioguard's stand that CYA does not matter even though its effects on chlorine have been known since the '60s but suppressed since it would hurt sales of stabilized chlorine products if everyone knew the problems of overstabilization) and you only have to do the Free Chlorine test and then multiply the chlorine results by 2.25 to convert it to a bromine reading. Currently, Bioguard/Spaguard does not make appropriate products for doing 3 step bromine. They sell a granular mixture that is mostly dichlor mixed with some sodium bromide to make a 'one step' product and sell bromine tablets.