Major Problem With Fresh Filled Tub

[shaner]

UPDATE

As you can tell reading through this post, my problem was resolved and I believed I knew why my problem occurred in the first place, at least I thought I did until now.

I went to shock my tub the same as I always do. I added 8 ounces of 6% bleach. As soon as I did, the water went green. I left the lid off and ran all the jets/pumps for 10 minutes. The green is slowly fading, but it's still green. I stuck in a test strip (I know, I know) and it went black/purple (the same as before).

What on earth is going on? The water was balanced and the only thing I added was 8 ounces of 6% bleach. I've done this many, many times and never had this problem until now. Anyone know what's causing this?

So the test strips are working again and are showing a fairly high bromine level (to be expected). The water isn't green anymore and is crystal clear. What on earth caused it to go green? Could there be some kind of metal in my water that is reacting with the bleach? If so, how do I test for that and how do I deal with it? None of the stores in my area test for metals. I am on well water, although I've never had this problem before.

ORIGINAL POST:

I have an 1800 liter tub. I drained and refilled 48 hours ago. I'm on well water. I used the 3 step bromine method, as I always do. My alkalinity out of the tap is very high and the ph is a bit low, so it takes a bit of time to get that balanced. As of today, the alkalinity was still a bit high, and the ph kept drifting up too. I have slowly been adding ph minus and aerating to get the alkalinity and ph balanced.

Anyway, immediately after filling the tub, the water was cloudy. Other than the alkalinity, all water levels were fine. My filter was very dirty though and needed to be replaced, so I took it to the spa store today and bought a new one. The lady gave me one that looked exactly the same, although we didn't compare numbers or anything of the sort.

I put the new filter in and added a bit more ph minus, and the water went green. I stuck in a test strip and it went haywire. All the colours on the strip went purple and black. I decided to shock the tub to be safe. A couple hours later I checked again and the test strip is still going haywire with strange colours. The tub isn't green anymore, but is still cloudy and stinks a little bit.

Considering my water was close to being balanced and the only thing I added was a bit of ph minus, why did my water go green and now cloudy/smelly? Could the new filter cause this somehow? Even with my old filter, the water went cloudy immediately upon filling and heating, although the old filter was dirty and old.

Any clue what's going on? When I had my water tested last night, these were my levels.

Bromine - 7

ph - 7.8

Alk - 200

Calcium hardness - 220

TDS - 400

[shaner]

Testing my water tonight isn't an option as I live out in the country. I will get it tested tonight, but I don't particularly want to use it tonight if I have no idea what's messing up the water. It's not cloudy or smelly anymore, but the test strips are still going haywire (test strips from 2 different packages from 2 different companies). I thought maybe the alkalinity and ph crashed due to too much ph minus, so I added some ph + and alkalinity + to rise both (added separately of course) and the test strips are still giving me odd colours.

Short of getting it tested tonight, any ideas?

[Spanky]

TEST STRIPS ??? Do yourself a favor and invest in a proper test kit (Taylor K2106 if your using Bromine)

I'm no expert but if the water turned green it most likely has dissolved metals (Copper?)

You said you're on a well. Did you use a Carbon pre-filter?

[shaner]

Getting that test kit up here isn't easy or cheap. Nobody sells it up here, and the US companies that will ship want a fortune, plus we have to pay brokerage fees to UPS/Fed Ex for importing it for us. So yes, I use test strips along with taking water samples into the store to get it professionally tested.

No, I didn't use a carbon pre-filter. I have never used that before and my water has always been fine. Even when I first filled it, it was cloudy, but not green and the test strips were giving accurate readings (as accurate as possible for test strips). 24 hours later I put in a bit more ph minus, put in a new filter, suddenly the water goes green, stinks and the test strips are giving me inaccurate readings (going black). Something happened.

[Spanky]

Where is "Up Here", are you referring to Canada?

[shaner]

Yes, sorry, I'm referring to Canada. For some reason I thought my location was listed in my profile. It appears you're in Canada as well. Where did you get your kit from?

Even without the kit, I've done fine with test strips and taking my water in to have it professionally tested on a regular basis. Something happened yesterday though to make my water go instantly green and make my test strips give odd readings. I will be taking it in today to have it tested, but I'm just curious what on earth happened? Could an improper filter cause this somehow?

[waterbear]

This company is on online retailer for Taylor kits in Canada (locagted in Quebec). I have done business with them myself, even though I live in the US and have discussed many pool and spa topics with them by email.. They are very knowledgeable about all aspects of pool and spa maintenance.

As far as knowing what happened to your water, without reliable test numbers it's really impossible to say and test strips are not reliable. I have an idea of what have might occurred but I won't venture to say unless I have some reliable numbers.

Two questions for you:

1. do you know your calcium hardness? (NOT total hardness, which is all strips can measure--this might be a factor in your cloudy water).

2. did you have bromine in the water before you started adding pH down to lower the TA? (very low pH can cause elemental bromine to form, a dangerous situation!)

both of these situations can be directly linked to testing with strips since they do not give you enough precision for water balancing!

[Spanky]

You can get Taylor kits from Apollo http://piscines-apol...ecart/index.php

Yes the pricing is a bit of a sting compared to U.S. but Apollo does offer free shipping anywhere in Canada. There is some sort exclusive contract for Canadian distributors and US suppliers are NOT allowed to ship across the border. Yes it SUCKS!!!

Unfortunately I'm no expert in this, but people like Waterbear or Chem Geek certainly are. Hopefully some of the fourm "Experts" step in here and guide you.

[shaner]

Okay, well I will get a test kit. In the meantime, can my local spa store test for metals in the water? How am i going to know if there's metals, how much and what to do about them? Like I said, I had my water tested, and TDS came back at 400, which is low for well water. I had already done the 3 step bromine method and my water hadn't gone green, but was cloudy, perhaps because of the high alk which was causing the ph to constantly rise. My concern is with the water going green immediately after adding a small amount of ph minus and installing a new filter.

I guess I'll wait and see what my numbers look like.

[shaner]

Now my test strips are all working fine. According to them, ph and alkalinity is high. I tried 2 strips from 2 different manufacturers, and both gave me the same results. The water is crystal clear and smells like it should. I'm going to add a small bit of ph minus again and see what happens.

[Spanky]

Post the numbers when you get them. (CH, TA, pH, Br)

Obviously you'll have to rely on the dealer, although Apollo is pretty quick at delivery.

Believe me if it wasn't for this fourm and people like Waterbear, Chem Geek ..etc.. I'd have given up on my Spa a long time ago.

I started out with test strips for the exact same reason as you, ready availability and every dealer that sells them, swears they're accurate and the "Greatest thing since sliced bread"

All was well for the first few weeks, but slowly I started loosing control and had no clue what was wrong. I'd resort to draining and starting over but the cycle just continued. In frustration, I turned to Google and fortunately found this fourm. After reading countless posts, I "bit the bullet" and ordered the K-2106 from Apollo and have absolutely no regrets.

I use a small OTO type tester daily for pH and Br. I got it at Rona (Canadian equivalent of Lowes) The reason for this is quite simple, It cuts down on the usage of Taylor reagents, which have to be reordered from Apollo ( $14.00 shipping for a $5.00 bottle) I do full testing weekly with my K-2106 and order reagents about every 9 months.

[Spanky]

Now my test strips are all working fine. According to them, ph and alkalinity is high. I tried 2 strips from 2 different manufacturers, and both gave me the same results. The water is crystal clear and smells like it should.

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you here. When I first got my Taylor, I still had some test strips and compared results. Not even close!!!

I'm going to add a small bit of ph minus again and see what happens.

How are you calculating how much to add?

I know for us Canadians Taylor products are a ridiculous price but I'll guarantee you'll find it worth the expense.

Let me tell you this... The other day I went into a new pool service store that just opened 5 mins from my house. I asked if they stock Taylor reagents and they asked me what I wanted them for. I told them a spa and the salesman showed me a package of test strips. Just then their Service Technician walked in carrying , You guessed it, a blue Taylor kit !!! The owner admitted that they use Taylor products but at the moment are not authorized to sell them. Hopefully that will change.

[shaner]

How am I calculating how much to add? Not so much calculating as I am estimating based on what the test strips tell me and based on how much I've needed in the past when I've refilled. Plus I take my water in to be tested every week or so. I added about 50 grams of ph minus today and then had my water tested.

Alk is 150

ph is 7.7

I'll likely need to drop my alkalinity to below 100 or my ph will keep rising. Usually the sweet spot for my water is an alkalinity around 70 and then the ph holds, otherwise the ph shoots up way too quickly to even keep up with it.

I still want to know why my water went green and stunk for a couple hours. The cloudiness can be explained by the water being unbalanced, but what can explain the water going green after putting in a new filter?

[waterbear]

My suspicion is that you dropped the pH too low and formed elemental bromine in the water by adding too much dry acid at one time since you are 'guestimating' how much to add instead of using an acid demand test. Depending on the color of your spa surface it can look greenish. Bromine has a strong smell and is toxic.

However, without a good set of test results from that time we are going to stay in the dark as to what really happened..

[Spanky]

Waterbear's theory obviously explains the strong smell

I just want to add, If the pH was that low for an extended period, the "Green" could have come from the acidic water dissolving the copper in the heater element.

Guessing with pH is dangerous!!!

[shaner]

Thanks. That very likely explains what happened. In the future, I will lower the ph much more slowly. Even when the ph is in range, if my alkalinity is over 100, I continue to lower the ph to get my alkalinity down. I now see that's not the right way to do it. I need to wait for my ph to drift back up (which it will do if my alkalinity is above 100) before I try to lower my alkalinity.

I will also get one of those test kits. Thanks for the help.

[Spanky]

Lowering TA that far can take a couple of days. You have to go slow with multiple cycles of lowering pH (never below 7.2 or even 7.4) and waiting for it to climb back up.

The major advantage of a Taylor kit is it has an "Acid Demand" test. This lets you calculate exactly how much acid to add. Just measure carefully. A good kitchen scale works great.

If you need any help understanding the test, or using the kit, just remember help is only a short "click" away.

[waterbear]

You might want to read the sticky on lowering TA. It not only explains the procedure but also the chemistry behind it and is worth reading! The link will link you to another thread in the pool water chemistry section. Just follow it!

[shaner]

Updated my first post with the following:

As you can tell reading through this post, my problem was resolved and I believed I knew why my problem occurred in the first place, at least I thought I did until now.

I went to shock my tub the same as I always do. I added 8 ounces of 6% bleach. As soon as I did, the water went green. I left the lid off and ran all the jets/pumps for 10 minutes. The green is slowly fading, but it's still green. I stuck in a test strip (I know, I know) and it went black/purple (the same as before).

What on earth is going on? The water was balanced and the only thing I added was 8 ounces of 6% bleach. I've done this many, many times and never had this problem until now. Anyone know what's causing this?

[Spanky]

I'm convinced you have copper in your water. Addition of bleach (Chlorine) can oxidize copper ions and cause water to turn green.

The dilema now is where did it come from?

1) It could be present in your well water (hopefully)

2) You may have damaged the coating of the heater element (Not good)

You asked, in another post, if copper can be tested. Yes it can, but it's a specialized test. Possibly the place you use can do it.. I would test a sample of your spa water and a sample of your well water (Control) and see what the results are.

There are metal sequestrants available but as Waterbear says, "A spa is not a chemistry experiment"!!!

You need to get accurate data in order to solve these problems.

[Spanky]

Sorry just read your last post which indicated your local store can't test for metals.

You can try a metal sequesterant. Personally I can't vouch for any brand (I've never used one) Talk to your local dealer they usually carry one. If you have trouble locating one, and don't want the hassle of ordering online, good old CT (Canadian Tire) actually sells one http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/PoolsAccessories/PoolChemicalslAccessories/PRD~0813367P/Spa+Stain+Prevention+Solution.jsp?locale=en You can sometimes find HTH Metal Control at Wal-Mart. **NOTE** Metal Control contains Etidronic Acid and Phosphorous Acid so watch your pH. See the MSDS http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/9e/9e08a632-a406-46d2-9cc1-60ef70eec7cb.pdf

Can't find any ingedients for the CTC product short of going to the store and reading the label.

I understand your frustration but please remember that what I'm suggesting is trully that "a suggestion". Without acurate data, we're all in the dark here.

I'm a bit concerned that if the water you continually claim to be "balanced" is in fact NOT then the erosion of the heater will continue and the addition of Metal Control may just mask the problem.

Does anybody else out there have any suggestions or ideas to help this fellow fourm Member out??

[shaner]

Thanks for the help. Through Google, I read that if copper is present in the water it will turn green when adding bleach (plus you just told me in your last post). I got a product called "metal free." I added it as per the directions on the bottle and then I added a bit of bleach to see what would happen and it didn't go green. Everything appears to be back to normal.

I'm confident my water is balanced. My test strips indicate my ph is in range but my alkalinity is still just a little high. Also, twice a week I take a water sample into the store. Because of all this I've been going to two different spa stores to have my water tested (they are right beside each other, so I walk out of one and right into the other) and both are giving me the same results, ph 7.6 and alkalinity is 120.

Yes, hopefully there is already copper in my water (I'm on well water and I bypassed the softener to fill the tub) and I didn't damage the heater. Time will tell. I've learned a valuable lesson though, that I need to very slowly bring the alkalinity down rather than try to do it within a matter of hours.

How long would the ph need to be low for it to start damaging the heater?

[waterbear]

How long would the ph need to be low for it to start damaging the heater?

Long enough for copper to be dissolved into the water. If the pH dropped very low it would not take very long.]