new2spa Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 When I do a salt test using an AquaCheck salt test I get 1080ppm. Yet my ACE system salt test is saying I have a salt reading of 6-7. My dealer has come out and tested my cell, and they replaced the ACE control unit last week. I'm out of idea's of what the problem is. My true salt test on my ACE unit should be coming back a 1-2. The owners manual says you need a min of 1200ppm of salt for the system to run correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny W Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 The ace system does have a salinty reader It figures out different which seems also to be wrong. Get a digital salt reader, test strips also can be a problem if they are old or directions not followed correctly. Also they now have raised the salt level to 1500-1750 ppm and also have a new stand pipe that the cell slides into to keep it from bottoming out. Watkins has also redesigned the gray cap for better flow. I also recommend to run the jet pumps before testing the salt level because I feel my opinion only is the tiny 6 GPM circ pump just does not have enough flow for this system to work correctly or give a proper salt reading. This is the 3 or 4 time the ace has been changed since its release. Call Watkins or the dealer and complain to see if you can get the new upgraded stuff. Did they test the cell milivolts at all? Most failures with this system is the cell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted March 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Watkins tech told me that the ACE system "salt" test is actually a test for the conductivity of the water, it doesn't really mean you have have salt if you have a high "salt" reading on the ACE system read out. Just as an example I brought my Salt level up from 1080ppm to 1500ppm and my salt test on the ACE system didn't change. It's still reading "7", however at least now it's pumping out chlorine because I have enough actual salt in the spa. I wonder if Gentle Spa goofs with the ACE system at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 All salt readings on both pool and spa SWCG systems are really measuring conductivity, as are handheld salt meters. Chemical tests such as strips and titrations are measuring chloride ions. While you are comparing apples and oranges, in actual practice the differences are usually small enough to be ignored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Went out to my spa before work last night and found my ACE system kicked itself offline for high salt, again. This has been an ongoing issue for a few months. I have the full support of my dealer and Hot Springs tech support. However the problem still continues. My salt is at 1500ppm, which is actually a little low (HS recommends 1600ppm+). I'm at my wits end with this ACE system. For almost 6 months now it has been one issue or another. First I had the wrong cell, then I had the correct newer cell installed but the wrong control box, now I have the correct control box and cell, and I am getting this high salt reading. When the system works it's outstanding, but in the almost 6 months I've owned it, it has maybe worked without issue for about 2 of those months all together. I wish I listened to the people on these forums and just got my spa without the ACE system. It's simple enough to maintain my spa water properly without it. For a product thats suppose to make my life easier, it has done the exact opposite. Is there any way to shut off the "salt" test on the ACE system? I know it would work fine if I could just do that. Well, I would at least get a few months more of it working without issues. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I have no idea what to do anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Went out to my spa before work last night and found my ACE system kicked itself offline for high salt, again. This has been an ongoing issue for a few months. I have the full support of my dealer and Hot Springs tech support. However the problem still continues. My salt is at 1500ppm, which is actually a little low (HS recommends 1600ppm+). Is this reading from the ace system itself or from a separate meter, strip, or chemical test? If it is not from the ace system itself disregard the reading. It is not important what you get on a stand alone salt reading. what is is important is what the ace system thinks the salt is, assuming the unit is working properly. It is not uncommon for salt readings to be off by as much as 800 ppm between a built in conductivity meter and a stand alone test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted March 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 I am getting the 1500ppm salt reading from an AquaChek Salt Test Strip. I see what you're saying about a difference in readings between the 2, however even when my salt was at 1100ppm the ACE system was giving me a "High Salt" reading and kicking itself offline for high salt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted March 31, 2012 Report Share Posted March 31, 2012 Simple solution, stop using the strips and let the Ace system work as it is supposed to! You are testing two different things. The Ace is testing conductivity of the water, which is influanced by all the ionic material (such as sodium ions and borate ions from the gentle spa or calcium and magnesium from your fill water or sulfate from MPS and dry acid, etc.) while the strips are specifically testing for chloride ion concentration. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and, as I said, the difference bwtween the two can be around 800 ppm, which is pretty high for a system that is supposed to operate at 1600 ppm salt, which is not a lot at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 Thanks for the replies Waterbear. I gave up on the ACE system. I have it "shut off" now and just maintain my water per nitro's guide. the ACE system was great while it lasted, but it's just been too much of a complete nightmare for me anymore. Even when I add, just by math, only 1080ppm of salt, my ACE system reads "high salt". So testing strips aside, 1 cup of salt adds 310ppm of salt to my tub. so adding 3 and a half cups brings to me around 1100 just with the math. Yet my ACE system gives me "high salt" reading and will not work. I just give up. I've spend almost 6 months now trying to just get this thing to work. I don't have the strength anymore to deal with it, my dealer, and Hot Springs about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 How did you fill the spa? City water? Well Water? Do you have a water softener? Did you pump water from the pool to fill it up? (if you have one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 How did you fill the spa? Put the garden hose in the filter compartment City water? Yes (CH = 100 out of tap) Well Water? No Do you have a water softener? Yes (Spa is at 50ppm of CH) Did you pump water from the pool to fill it up? (if you have one) No sir! Spa is only thing I have. I'm in the process of doing a full drain and refill, I have a hunch. My system was working fine till I added Gentle Spa. I'm thinking Gentle Spa might be somehow making my water more conductive, without adding salt. It would explain why I am getting high salt readings but have low salt in the spa. It's a long shot, but I have nothing to lose except an afternoon. I had nothing on the books today anyways so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted April 1, 2012 Report Share Posted April 1, 2012 50 ppm Borates is technically 50 ppm boron and from an equivalent weight basis would be the same as 270 ppm sodium chloride salt. However, most of the boric acid remains undissociated so overall it would not contribute very much to conductivity and would not measure as chloride in salt tests. Now if the borates are added via a combination of borax and acid, then there would be actual sodium chloride salt where 50 ppm borates would have 135 ppm sodium chloride salt. Let us know what happens. Maybe there is something else in the Proteam Gentle Spa that is interfering with the Ace system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 Got my TA/pH in line, added 5 cups of salt per the directions. Which should get me around 1500ppm of salt (the min for operation). Salt test on my ACE system shot from 1 to 7. Guess it wasn't the Gentle Spa. The normal thing now is my ACE will run fine for a few days with a 6-7 salt reading on my ACE system. Then maybe by mid next week it will start going into the high 7 low 8 range and start kicking itself offline. The only thing I ever add wil be dichlor because I can't count on the ACE system to work. It's my dealers busy time fo year with the pool season. So it's rare that i get an e-mail or call back from him. I called Hot Springs a few times last week, they at least called me back to get my numbers on pH, TA and CH (all are right within perfect range). However I haven't gotten any word since. I kinda get the feeling they don't know what to do. I can see both my dealer and hot springs jerking me around for a few more months until my warrenty is up on my cell and then have them tell me I need to buy a new one. At this point nothing would suprise me. :angry: I know this is blasphemy on this forums... but I have to say I am sorry i didn't go with Master Spa. The only reason I went with the Limelight Glow over the Master Spa LSX 557 was the fact that my Hot Springs dealer was giving away this ACE system with the purchase of a new spa. Well in all fareness at least the actual spa hasn't given me any grief. Just this blasted ACE system. However I have to be honest, I doubt I will ever purchase another Hot Springs product after my experience with this ACE system. Is there anything I can add to my spa water to decrease the conductivity? Does pH/TA/CH have anything to do with conductivity? I'm thinking maybe if I play around with 1 of those maybe I can get this thing to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreservedSwine Posted April 2, 2012 Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 I know this may be a dumb question, but does your water softener use salt? We've had a couple mystery high salt concentrations in this area- on fill up. While we've replaced a few faulty cell's- we've also found a bad controller (just one of of hundreds), several water softeners that used salt, and pool water (no salt water generator- but the cholrine in the pool had broken down into salt- very high levels) A quick way to tell if it's the water out of the tap, - grab a five gallon bucket, fill it with a bit of warm tap water, and drop the ACE cell in it. Run the salt test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2012 We have a water softener, however I always bypass it when filling my spa. When I did my full re-fill yesterday I ran a salt test on my ACE system as soon as the spa was topped off with water. It came back with a value of 1 everytime I did the test. I did your test and found my salt test came back with a value of 2 in the softened water. Maybe my water has a high amount of other solids in it that will make it more conductive? Maybe I should try to put some stain and scale in and see if that drops it at all. As of right now on my new re-fill my salt test is returning with a value of 6-7. My actual salt level is 1500ppm. Does stain and scale actually remove metal solids in the water somehow? Does MPS increase conductivity at all? I use MPS once a week in my spa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Yes, MPS increases conductivity by adding sulfates to the water, but not by a lot. The largest components of conductive ions in the water, by far, is plain salt (sodium chloride). When you add chlorine, it will get converted to chloride and when you add pH adjusting chemicals such as pH Up, you are adding sodium so net is an increase in sodium chloride salt. One ounce weight of 43% MPS (about 4-5 teaspoons) in 350 gallons is equivalent to 4.3 ppm FC in oxidizing power and if one adjusted the pH using pH Up to restore TA and had carbon dioxide outgassing to move the pH the rest of the way, then the actual TDS (not sodium chloride equivalent) would be 22 ppm higher where sulfates would be 13 ppm of that. The conductivity increases by the equivalent of 12 ppm sodium chloride addition so not very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 OK Have a brief update. I tossed some stain and scale in my spa and found that my salt level decreased. When I say salt level I mean the salt test on my ACE system, not the actual salt level. My guess is that my water has a high amount of metals in the water, making it more conductive. I was able to bring my salt up to 1600ppm and still only read a salt level of 5. The ACE system isn't producing much chlorine, about 1 ppm in 24 hours with the settings maxed out (i.e. USE 5 and SIZE 8). I notice that is I bring my pH down to 7.2 the system creates a little more chlorine. However my dealer told me that pH shouldn't have any effect on the ACE system to produce chlorine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 My Hot Springs dealer and the Watkins service tech have found the problem with my ACE system. Turns out that there is a flow problem in the standpipe. If I move my ACE cell to outside the standpipe, inside the filter compartment, it works without any problems. My dealer has told me that Watkins engineers are working on a solution. I just wanted to give a final update so that anyone out there who might be having the same probelm can find this thread. My hats off to my Hot Springs dealer and Watkins service tech. I have never had to pay 1 penny to anyone. My dealer must have been out to my house around 15 times, never once was I charged for a "service fee" or pressured into buying anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny W Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 They already have a new standpipe available, to keep the cell from falling in to far and a new filter cap with holes in it to increase flow. The other way is to adjust the cord at the strain relief near the top of the filter compartment to put more cable in the control bay. They also have a new cell design too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new2spa Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 My Glow has both the new cell and new standpipe installed. I was still having flow problems threw my standpipe. I upgraded to a Hot Springs Sovereign today so I am hoping I am leaving all my troubles with the ACE system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob123 Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 I am new to this forum and have been having numerous problems with the ACE system since install as well. 2 cells have gone bad since November 2011. Dozens of service trips from my dealer. The controller and complete system were replaced in June and I am still having issues with the tub not making chlorine after any normal use. When we are on vacation or not using the tub it seems to be able to produce chlorine. As soon as we use it to any degree it stops making chlorine. My dealer appears to have run out of solutions and keeps trying to ask Watkins for suggestions. All the tub levels are in line (salt, ph, etc). I have similar feelings as the original post stated in that I wish I had never purchased this system. In my opinion, this is not well engineered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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