Hot Spot Hot Tub Insulation

[plzwork]

Hi all, I am a first time buyer and have been on this site just about everyday since visiting a couple of spa shops last week. After my visits and research I’m leaning towards buying a Hot Spot Relay if the lounger does well in the west test. If it doesn’t I’ll probably get the Rhythm which is basically the same tub with two seats instead of the lounger since the lounger isn’t a must for me. The Relay my dealer has is a new 2012 model whereas the Rhythm is a 2011 model. My budget is in the low 5k-ish range and he’s quoted me at $5195 for either one and that price includes delivery, cover, and steps. He’s been around since the late 80’s and has a great service technician so I feel good about these guys.

I think I’m pretty well educated on most of the Hot Spot vs Hot Spring differences except for the insulation difference. My guy says that Hot Spots use 1lb foam whereas Hot Springs uses 2lb foam. I contacted Hot Spot directly and the lady who answered said there was no difference in insulation. I then contacted another Hot Spring dealer who said that the new 2012 Hot Spots are using a new more “green” recycled something-or-other insulation method that isn’t quite foam or thermopane panels. He said whatever it was it wasn’t as good as Hot Springs but it was at least as good if not better than every other spa manufacturer out there. I asked him if it was like foam in that if it gets wet it becomes “useless” as some of the guys on this forum call it or if it was susceptible to the ant/rodent infestation/nesting issues and he said he didn’t know.

I’ve seen a lot of very knowledgeable Hot Springs guys posting here and would really appreciate a definitive explanation on the differences between the new 2012 Hot Spot insulation method, the 2011 Hot Spot insulation method (incase I go for the Rhythm), and the Hot Spring insulation method so that I can get a better understanding of the product I am purchasing.

Thanks!

[Hot Spring Ace]

Hi all, I am a first time buyer and have been on this site just about everyday since visiting a couple of spa shops last week. After my visits and research I’m leaning towards buying a Hot Spot Relay if the lounger does well in the west test. If it doesn’t I’ll probably get the Rhythm which is basically the same tub with two seats instead of the lounger since the lounger isn’t a must for me. The Relay my dealer has is a new 2012 model whereas the Rhythm is a 2011 model. My budget is in the low 5k-ish range and he’s quoted me at $5195 for either one and that price includes delivery, cover, and steps. He’s been around since the late 80’s and has a great service technician so I feel good about these guys.

I think I’m pretty well educated on most of the Hot Spot vs Hot Spring differences except for the insulation difference. My guy says that Hot Spots use 1lb foam whereas Hot Springs uses 2lb foam. I contacted Hot Spot directly and the lady who answered said there was no difference in insulation. I then contacted another Hot Spring dealer who said that the new 2012 Hot Spots are using a new more “green” recycled something-or-other insulation method that isn’t quite foam or thermopane panels. He said whatever it was it wasn’t as good as Hot Springs but it was at least as good if not better than every other spa manufacturer out there. I asked him if it was like foam in that if it gets wet it becomes “useless” as some of the guys on this forum call it or if it was susceptible to the ant/rodent infestation/nesting issues and he said he didn’t know.

I’ve seen a lot of very knowledgeable Hot Springs guys posting here and would really appreciate a definitive explanation on the differences between the new 2012 Hot Spot insulation method, the 2011 Hot Spot insulation method (incase I go for the Rhythm), and the Hot Spring insulation method so that I can get a better understanding of the product I am purchasing.

Thanks!

1) The 2011 Hot Spots uses ½ lb foam insulation which is pretty much the standard on just about every fully insulated spa out there.

2) The 2012 Hot Spots use a new type of insulation that is not a sprayed in foam. It is greener and insulates better than the 1/2 lb foam as proven in testing. It also makes for any future repairs to be easier as it can be scooped out (or vacuumed out even) and then put back in place afterward. It will not absorb water and no mold or mildew will grow on/in it. Rodents love living in the foam insulation if they can get in there and I'd imagine they'll love living in this as well jsut like they love living in spas that don't fill with any type of insulation. The key with any spa is not to give them an entrance so take care when you bring power into the spa to not create an oversized notch or anything that gives them a path (use silicon to fill any gaps if you create any bringing in power).

3) Hot Spring uses multiple density foams to give structure to the spa and make it very energy efficient. A Hot Spring with the multi density foam definitely gives you better insulating value than if it was just 1/2 lb foam alone.

[Kenny W]

Hi all, I am a first time buyer and have been on this site just about everyday since visiting a couple of spa shops last week. After my visits and research I’m leaning towards buying a Hot Spot Relay if the lounger does well in the west test. If it doesn’t I’ll probably get the Rhythm which is basically the same tub with two seats instead of the lounger since the lounger isn’t a must for me. The Relay my dealer has is a new 2012 model whereas the Rhythm is a 2011 model. My budget is in the low 5k-ish range and he’s quoted me at $5195 for either one and that price includes delivery, cover, and steps. He’s been around since the late 80’s and has a great service technician so I feel good about these guys.

I think I’m pretty well educated on most of the Hot Spot vs Hot Spring differences except for the insulation difference. My guy says that Hot Spots use 1lb foam whereas Hot Springs uses 2lb foam. I contacted Hot Spot directly and the lady who answered said there was no difference in insulation. I then contacted another Hot Spring dealer who said that the new 2012 Hot Spots are using a new more “green” recycled something-or-other insulation method that isn’t quite foam or thermopane panels. He said whatever it was it wasn’t as good as Hot Springs but it was at least as good if not better than every other spa manufacturer out there. I asked him if it was like foam in that if it gets wet it becomes “useless” as some of the guys on this forum call it or if it was susceptible to the ant/rodent infestation/nesting issues and he said he didn’t know.

I’ve seen a lot of very knowledgeable Hot Springs guys posting here and would really appreciate a definitive explanation on the differences between the new 2012 Hot Spot insulation method, the 2011 Hot Spot insulation method (incase I go for the Rhythm), and the Hot Spring insulation method so that I can get a better understanding of the product I am purchasing.

Thanks!

The 2012 Hotspot and Limelight models have a fiberglass backed shell and do not require foam for structure support. They do have a new insulation that resemables a wool and is not suppose to wick water and hold it like foam. It is suppose to be easly removed for service and repairs. If the spa cabinet it tightly built which they are, the nasty bugs can't get in.

The Hotspring models do use different density foam. against the shell is 2 lb closed cell foam for structure and insulation. They have a weaker material backing the shell that requires more support. The foam that fills the cavity between the shell and cabinet walls is the same foam as the Hotspot models. Hotspring also uses a thin layer on 40 lb foam on the bottom and sides of the spa which makes a tight seal, but if it leaks most of the water can not escape and the foam soaks it up and then needs to removed and refoamed after a leak repair. The reason spa insulation soaks up water is it a open cell foam were cells of the foam do not completely closes 2 lb foam and less. Also with open cell foam the R value is less at 3.5 an inch and can not stop 100% of air movement. there is not alot of room in most cases between the shell and cabinet in spots so full foam spa really does not have a high R value and since the plumbing runs through the foam some heat from the plumbing tries to heat the foam which in noticed in digging around looking for a leak.

Closed cell foam is heavy and the cells of the foam are completely closed and has a R value of 6.5 an inch. This makes this foam more costly to use and would add a great deal of weight to the spa. The foam spa people use is the same stuff used in construction of buildings there is no special spa foam. As far as layers of insulation or fully insulated or full foamed, whatever you call it Hotspring models have 1 kind against the shell, lighter in the cavity, and thin layer on the bottom and sides, that is how they get layers of insulation, but again the plumbing is in the lighter lb density foam. Also Hotspring claims the heat from jet pumps is used to help heat is a crock. If the back of the shell in sprayed with closed cell foam there can be no heat transfer. All the heat from jet pumps in a full foam spa in exhausted to the outside. Foam has a insulation value and noise deadening, but lets the manufactures use thinner cabinet material, Less of a frame to build the spa on, and do not have to worry about keeping the plumbing lines from shifting also. Spray foam is petroleum based product which you know the price of gas will keep spa prices raising or force a different kind of insulation, hence the new stuff used in Hotspot and Limelight.

[Hot Spring Ace]

Also Hotspring claims the heat from jet pumps is used to help heat is a crock. If the back of the shell in sprayed with closed cell foam there can be no heat transfer. All the heat from jet pumps in a full foam spa in exhausted to the outside.

Actually its not a crock, you simply are misinformed (or were misinformed by someone else) as to how that heat energy is getting back into the spa. You are correect, it oviously isn't migrating back through the foam. In reality the pumps have an exhaust that sends hot air through a hose to the bottom of the front corners where there is an opening. At the same time, when those pumps are turned on the jets are designed to draw air into the water. The hoses that supply air to the jets go to that same point at the bottom of the corners so that any air the jets are drawing into the water is that same expelled hot air from the pumps rather than drawing outside ambient air in (which can be very cold at certain times of the year). It’s a straight forward method to recycle the expelled heat and be more energy efficient because every bit counts.

[Kenny W]

Also Hotspring claims the heat from jet pumps is used to help heat is a crock. If the back of the shell in sprayed with closed cell foam there can be no heat transfer. All the heat from jet pumps in a full foam spa in exhausted to the outside.

Actually its not a crock, you simply are misinformed (or were misinformed by someone else) as to how that heat energy is getting back into the spa. You are correect, it oviously isn't migrating back through the foam. In reality the pumps have an exhaust that sends hot air through a hose to the bottom of the front corners where there is an opening. At the same time, when those pumps are turned on the jets are designed to draw air into the water. The hoses that supply air to the jets go to that same point at the bottom of the corners so that any air the jets are drawing into the water is that same expelled hot air from the pumps rather than drawing outside ambient air in (which can be very cold at certain times of the year). It’s a straight forward method to recycle the expelled heat and be more energy efficient because every bit counts.

Ah not quite. The air control air inlets are connected to a Hartford Loop in the equipment bay under the bartop. With a check valve to prevent water from back flowing. They are not connected to any exhaust port from the jet pumps.

see desricption of hartford loop below.

Part #72701 HARTFORD LOOP ASSY

The air check valves are the air intake ports for the air that is supplied to the individual jets via the air valves. Located in the equipment compartment under the bartop, their primary function is to prevent water from back flowing into the equipment compartment should the hydrotherapy jet become obstructed.

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

Also Hotspring claims the heat from jet pumps is used to help heat is a crock. If the back of the shell in sprayed with closed cell foam there can be no heat transfer. All the heat from jet pumps in a full foam spa in exhausted to the outside.

Actually its not a crock, you simply are misinformed (or were misinformed by someone else) as to how that heat energy is getting back into the spa. You are correect, it oviously isn't migrating back through the foam. In reality the pumps have an exhaust that sends hot air through a hose to the bottom of the front corners where there is an opening. At the same time, when those pumps are turned on the jets are designed to draw air into the water. The hoses that supply air to the jets go to that same point at the bottom of the corners so that any air the jets are drawing into the water is that same expelled hot air from the pumps rather than drawing outside ambient air in (which can be very cold at certain times of the year). It’s a straight forward method to recycle the expelled heat and be more energy efficient because every bit counts.

Ah not quite. The air control air inlets are connected to a Hartford Loop in the equipment bay under the bartop. With a check valve to prevent water from back flowing. They are not connected to any exhaust port from the jet pumps.

see desricption of hartford loop below.

Part #72701 HARTFORD LOOP ASSYDxo

The air check valves are the air intake ports for the air that is supplied to the individual jets via the air valves. Located in the equipment compartment under the bartop, their primary function is to prevent water from back flowing into the equipment compartment should the hydrotherapy jet become obstructed.

Yes, but guess where the Hartford Loop gets it's air from...a 3/4" line that tee's directly off the jet pump exhaust.

As far as answering the original question, I wouldn't let the insulation methods in the '11 model or '12 model be a big holdup in making your decision. You can't go wrong with either.

[Hot Spring Ace]

Also Hotspring claims the heat from jet pumps is used to help heat is a crock. If the back of the shell in sprayed with closed cell foam there can be no heat transfer. All the heat from jet pumps in a full foam spa in exhausted to the outside.

Actually its not a crock, you simply are misinformed (or were misinformed by someone else) as to how that heat energy is getting back into the spa. You are correect, it oviously isn't migrating back through the foam. In reality the pumps have an exhaust that sends hot air through a hose to the bottom of the front corners where there is an opening. At the same time, when those pumps are turned on the jets are designed to draw air into the water. The hoses that supply air to the jets go to that same point at the bottom of the corners so that any air the jets are drawing into the water is that same expelled hot air from the pumps rather than drawing outside ambient air in (which can be very cold at certain times of the year). Its a straight forward method to recycle the expelled heat and be more energy efficient because every bit counts.

Ah not quite. The air control air inlets are connected to a Hartford Loop in the equipment bay under the bartop. With a check valve to prevent water from back flowing. They are not connected to any exhaust port from the jet pumps.

see desricption of hartford loop below.

Part #72701 HARTFORD LOOP ASSYDxo

The air check valves are the air intake ports for the air that is supplied to the individual jets via the air valves. Located in the equipment compartment under the bartop, their primary function is to prevent water from back flowing into the equipment compartment should the hydrotherapy jet become obstructed.

Yes, but guess where the Hartford Loop gets it's air from...a 3/4" line that tee's directly off the jet pump exhaust.

OK, I didn't know how specific I needed to be. Yes, it does go from the jets first to the Hartford loop but then it goes from the Hartford loop to the corners where the pump heat goes as Dan stated. In the end the jets draw air from the heated air coling off the pumps as I'd stated earlier.

[plzwork]

Thank you for the responses HS Ace and Kenny! After those explanations it looks like the 2011 Rhythm has been taken off my list. I like that the new stuff insulates better than 1/2lb foam, like that it doesn’t absorb water, and especially like that it is much easier to work with instead of foam in terms of servicing the tub.

So my dealer supposedly has a 2012 Relay, but how would I go about verifying this and making sure it has the new insulation? He says it’s a 2012 and then pointed out that it had all vertical wood panels, while the 2011 Rhythm had vertical and horizontal wood panels. Is that enough to know that it’s a 2012 Relay that definitely has the new insulation?

Thanks again for the responses

(PS: If a moderator is looking at this, it took a while for me to login to this site to reply. I removed the word beta from the url and it finally allowed me to properly login and make a post. That beta word was popping up in the default links but I manually deleted it in the address bar to fix the issue.)

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

Thank you for the responses HS Ace and Kenny! After those explanations it looks like the 2011 Rhythm has been taken off my list. I like that the new stuff insulates better than 1/2lb foam, like that it doesn’t absorb water, and especially like that it is much easier to work with instead of foam in terms of servicing the tub.

So my dealer supposedly has a 2012 Relay, but how would I go about verifying this and making sure it has the new insulation? He says it’s a 2012 and then pointed out that it had all vertical wood panels, while the 2011 Rhythm had vertical and horizontal wood panels. Is that enough to know that it’s a 2012 Relay that definitely has the new insulation?

Thanks again for the responses

(PS: If a moderator is looking at this, it took a while for me to login to this site to reply. I removed the word beta from the url and it finally allowed me to properly login and make a post. That beta word was popping up in the default links but I manually deleted it in the address bar to fix the issue.)

That beta issue has been happening for a long time and I think it's keeping a lot of people who are unaware of it from posting on the site. Wish it would keep the spam-bots off.

[Wozzy]

I have been to hot springs training and basically everything hs ace said is true. The only thing they say different is they use a 30 pound foam on the shell and lines. A 2.5 down and then capped off with a 60 pound.