Increasing Alk & Decreasing Ph, And Excessive Foaming

[klhPerry]

You know, it's not that I really want to use the MPS that much, it's just that I have 2kg of the stuff that I eventually have to get rid of... so sometimes, I alternate just for the heck of it... that's how I noticed the difference in foam. Bleach does a great job for me and I am happy with it... after all it is what helped correct my water problems.

Anyone looking for 2kg MPS? Any takers?

LOL! SuzyQ442, you must read my most recent post. I'm with you on the MPS (through trial and error)!

[SuzyQ442]

Dumb Thing #2 - Reviewed the posts on this topic after I treated my water. Then, of course, I got smart! Removed the Bromine floater and aerated for over an hour; pH came right back up to 7.4! Although foaming decreased a bit, I still have some and the Bromine is still very high. I am going to keep the floater out of the water until levels drop. I'm a bit confused, because

You also have to leave the top off, not just remove the floater. The bromine levels will lower faster that way. If the levels are very high, I have to leave mine off at least 4 or 5 hours, if not more.

Dumb Thing #3 - When I checked the bromine level on Wednesday, it was low, so I gave the floater just a couple more twists and thought that might do the trick. Before I escalate to Dumb Thing #4, can you tell me if turning off the air controls is necessary? Might limiting the amount of air circulating when the tub is not in use actually lower the pH level and made bromine levels rise?

Waterbear may be able to answer you more precisely, but honestly, I never fiddled with the air controls and my ph is very stable now - although I did add some boric acid to stabilize. It did wonders. The fact that you added Borax would normally have helped also. At this point, I am at a wonderful 7.4 that doesn't really change - goes up a bit with intense use - let's say, 1 or more hours with all jets on - but goes right back down afterwards and stays put. The spa was unused for a full week, top on, floater in set at 2, and although the bromine level was fairly high when I tested at the end of the week (at 13), the PH was just fine. (I'll have to set the floater at 1 and see what happens).

From what I can deduce, the bromine levels (in my case) will have a tendancy to rise since the floater is in, the oxidizer is being constantly added (tablets have bromine AND chlorine) with the bromine, in addition to the fact that I have an ozonator also, but there is not much happening to use up the bromine. I see this as a good thing... there does not seem to be anything nasty growing in the water to use up the bromine while the spa is unused...

I also have read that the MPS is acidic, along with the bromine tablets I believe, which may contribute to your pH getting low (ALK also, btw). The MPS and the tablets are the biggest culprits here. Just check your PH a little more often, say twice a week, and see what happens. I would keep the air on, since the aeration contributes to raising the PH and would perhaps counteract the PH reduction caused by the MPS and tablets. I'm no chemist here, but from what I have read, it would be logical to assume this.

Also, if you have read the forums, in some cases if the level of bromine is very high, it may bleach out your PH & Alk tests. I personally do not test the PH if the bromine is higher than 14. I don't remember if the limit is 10 or 20 - would have to look it up again but I decided to be lazy and go with "when in doubt... wait to 15 or less to test pH and re-test when below 10 just to make sure.

I just want to blame someone else for my bubbles and bromine! lol

Well, you can blame the uneducated pool store guys for a start - not all of them, but just the ones who think they have it all figured out, but who are actually just reciting the same old litany all the time... and trying to sell their overpriced products. That's what I did. Made me feel much better!

[klhPerry]

Dumb Thing #2 - Reviewed the posts on this topic after I treated my water. Then, of course, I got smart! Removed the Bromine floater and aerated for over an hour; pH came right back up to 7.4! Although foaming decreased a bit, I still have some and the Bromine is still very high. I am going to keep the floater out of the water until levels drop. I'm a bit confused, because

You also have to leave the top off, not just remove the floater. The bromine levels will lower faster that way. If the levels are very high, I have to leave mine off at least 4 or 5 hours, if not more.

Wow...didn't know it might take that long! Today the sun is out here in Indy (woohoo!) - I've got the tub uncovered and aerating right now.

Dumb Thing #3 - When I checked the bromine level on Wednesday, it was low, so I gave the floater just a couple more twists and thought that might do the trick. Before I escalate to Dumb Thing #4, can you tell me if turning off the air controls is necessary? Might limiting the amount of air circulating when the tub is not in use actually lower the pH level and made bromine levels rise?

Waterbear may be able to answer you more precisely, but honestly, I never fiddled with the air controls and my ph is very stable now - although I did add some boric acid to stabilize. It did wonders. The fact that you added Borax would normally have helped also. At this point, I am at a wonderful 7.4 that doesn't really change - goes up a bit with intense use - let's say, 1 or more hours with all jets on - but goes right back down afterwards and stays put. The spa was unused for a full week, top on, floater in set at 2, and although the bromine level was fairly high when I tested at the end of the week (at 13), the PH was just fine. (I'll have to set the floater at 1 and see what happens). I think I may have had it open way too far

From what I can deduce, the bromine levels (in my case) will have a tendancy to rise since the floater is in, the oxidizer is being constantly added (tablets have bromine AND chlorine) with the bromine, in addition to the fact that I have an ozonator also, but there is not much happening to use up the bromine. I see this as a good thing... there does not seem to be anything nasty growing in the water to use up the bromine while the spa is unused... Great deduction! Now that you've "added it up" for me, it makes perfect sense.

I also have read that the MPS is acidic, along with the bromine tablets I believe, which may contribute to your pH getting low (ALK also, btw). The MPS and the tablets are the biggest culprits here. Just check your PH a little more often, say twice a week, and see what happens. I would keep the air on, since the aeration contributes to raising the PH and would perhaps counteract the PH reduction caused by the MPS and tablets. I'm no chemist here, but from what I have read, it would be logical to assume this. Maybe you're not a chemist, but you just might be part Vulcan! (btw my TA is testing at only 20 ppm.) I like your logic!

Also, if you have read the forums, in some cases if the level of bromine is very high, it may bleach out your PH & Alk tests. I personally do not test the PH if the bromine is higher than 14. I don't remember if the limit is 10 or 20 - would have to look it up again but I decided to be lazy and go with "when in doubt... wait to 15 or less to test pH and re-test when below 10 just to make sure. SuzyQ442, thanks so much for your speedy reply and encouraging advice! Hopefully my tub will be "soak worthy" by tonight.

May I ask if you live in a cold weather climate? Is your tub inside or out? Mine is outside at the time, but I'm debating whether or not to bring it in to the sun porch (need to do a cleaning and refill anyway) for the winter months. Last winter we had such terrible ice and snow ... I want to be able to enjoy my tub especially during that time of year when my body feels the worst! Any advice you (or anyone else) has to offer I would appreciate.

I just want to blame someone else for my bubbles and bromine! lol

Well, you can blame the uneducated pool store guys for a start - not all of them, but just the ones who think they have it all figured out, but who are actually just reciting the same old litany all the time... and trying to sell their overpriced products. That's what I did. Made me feel much better! Right on, sister! Actually, the pool peeps I use are great ... when I paid them a visit to let them know they didn't tell me about adding sodium bromide at start-up, thus contributing to the bromine toxicity (info courtesy Waterbear!), they were very apologetic. They basically said that when it comes to the spa part of their business (a very small part), they just do what the vendors tell them. In fact, they said they questioned the vendor as to why they didn't receive the "small packets" for spa start-up as in the past. They were told that it was no longer necessary, and that all you need to start up was the Brominating Tablets and MPS to shock.

Sure would be great if industry would get on the same page as the consumer, no?!? Well, thanks again for your help and advice!

[SuzyQ442]

Glad I could help. Don't forget to add sodium Bicarb to increase your ALK which is WAY too low, and probably part of the reason why your pH was also so low. Try increasing to 50 and see what happens. My spa is happy at 50 - if I go to 70 or 80, the PH rockets back up again. If your ph still remains very low after a few days, I would suggest trying alk at 70. It took me at least 6 weeks of trial and error before I found the perfect "recipe". 4 weeks of working blind because of lack of information - then I found this site - and then, after about 2, maybe 3 weeks, I was set. If it hadn't been for Waterbear and his precious advice, along with that of the other mods on the site, I would still be stuck in the PH yo-yo... With foam up to my ears (literally).

I do live in a very cold climate, in the province of Quebec. The spa is outside, allbeit only 4 steps away from the patio door. This was done on purpose so we would use it in the wintertime. Since it is brand new and our first, we haven't tried it yet but I can't wait to actually be in 100 degree water when it's about 10 degrees outside. As to putting yours on the porch, people I know who have "covered" spas in the winter have said that the main problem is condensation. Some have reported that their spa, enclosed in a type of canvas "garage" or "tent", produces condensation/vapor that freezes up on the ceiling of their "shelter". When they use the spa afterwards, it heats up the frost on the ceiling and actually produces "rain" inside (COLD rain). So, not so much fun there. If your sun porch is large, can support the weight of the spa (and the water inside it) and is properly ventilated... go ahead! I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

[waterbear]

Wow! You've become an expert SuzyQ442! Your advice is spot on! Are you sure you are the same person who stated this thread in July? I can see that I am not needed here anymore! You GO, girl!

[SuzyQ442]

Wow! You've become an expert SuzyQ442! Your advice is spot on! Are you sure you are the same person who stated this thread in July? I can see that I am not needed here anymore! You GO, girl!

TY so much for the compliment, Waterbear. I'm blushing. Well, I am NOT the same person as 2 months ago - I was blind, but now I see... because of your teachings oh great master! lol! And yes, you are still needed, very much so!

Seriously, I spent hours & hours reading posts on this forum and am delighted by what I've learned. I never would have thought that I would get excited at the idea of finding 6% bleach at the hardware store! Woohoo!

Now that I understand what is going on with my water, I find that although the chemistry in itself is of course somewhat complex, the basic principles are very simple... I just hope that as many people as possible find this site and learn from it. My next objective is monitoring the TDS. I know there are kits available for that, but I need to read up on it beforehand.

I was actually telling my hubby the other day that I would be curious to bring my test kit to a certain friend's place, who has had a spa for 12 years - and ONLY uses strips - and test the water to see what is going on in there. She told me, when we bought the spa, not to forget to add anti-scale product once a week - and insisted on the importance of it - because her heater was once destroyed by scale deposits, within 2 or 3 years. Well, now, I know why. Unbalanced water - improperly tested, and improperly maintained. Such a simple issue to resolve but sadly, too few dealers care enough to learn about it &/or inform their clients. I've been to three different ones with my previous problems, and they just had no clue whatsoever - their only solution was to either do a re-fill or use more of their products.

I think I'll start a mobile water testing business - Get the certification (cause having "the papers" is definitely a plus, in addition to the fact that I'm convinced I still have loads to learn) and then go to people's homes & do the testing for them. I wouldn't sell many expensive products, but I'm pretty sure I'd have lots of happy clients! In the long run, I think my services would be less expensive that all the s**t they add to their water!

[klhPerry]

I'm baaaaack ... been enjoying our hot tub with the exception of a few issues, which I need your wonderful advice on. Here are the vitals: Br 5.25, pH weird (please see photo), TA 60, CH 180. Way too much foaming ... like bubble bath foaming! No laundry detergent/softener allowed, so I just don't get that. The pH shade resembles a sockeye salmon! I have been able to get it down, but it still is an odd color compared to the shades on the tester. Also, I just cannot seem to keep it stable, even with (fairly) regular testing and adjusting. Any input? Sure do appreciate your time kids!! Thanks

[walleye]

Question on Borax. All my water is levels are OK and EZ to maintain. I want to add Borax to my tub as I liked the feel it gave prior to my refill. I have a 400 Gallon Bromine system. How much and what will it do to my PH, TA and CH?

[chem geek]

If you are trying to add 50 ppm Borates for the feel, then you add a combination of 20 Mule Team Borax and Muriatic Acid or you can add boric acid which is more pH neutral. You can use The Pool Calculator to calculate dosages. Note that Borax raises pH which is why you add acid to lower it back down. 50 ppm Borates will slightly increase your TA -- by about 5 ppm at a pH of 7.5. It will have no effect on your CH.