Pool Pump Filter Size Mis-Match

[bwise101]

I have a cartridge filter system that says the maximum GPM is 100. I have a Sta-Rite 1.5 hp pump. The filter is now leaking and the home warranty company is saying the filter is not designed to handle that size of a pump. How can I figure out how many GPM the pump puts out? The model of the pump is P6E6F-207L. The filter is a System 3.

In addition, I noticed the 2" conduit from the pool has collapsed. How can this happen?

Link to pump:

http://www.aqua-man.com/row_num.asp?Ic=55508

Many thanks,

Byron

[Pool Clown]

First, i don't think you could get 100 gpm to that filter, with the size pipe you are using. Now pressure, that's a different story. I think that pressure, not too much flow, is causing the leak. What is the pressure gauge reading when it is running?

Going buy the graph you provided, you would have to have less than 60 feet of pipe between your pool, and the equipment to get even close to 100gpm. Oh, and this is with NO 90 degree elbows in the plumbing. If you have 90's, tee's, or any other fittings that redirect the flow of water(you do), you have to add distance to your run.

With 2 inch pipe:

90 elbow = 5.5 feet

45 = 2.8 feet

Tee's = 4.3 feet (line flow)

12' feet (branch flow)

You have 12 90's that are above ground, that i can see, not to mention the re-directing that goes on inside the heater. And those are all 1 1/2" 90's that are 4 feet each. Thats 48 feet of head just in fittings, and who knows how many more 90's underground en route to the pool. And don't forget to add the straight pipe.

Note that these are rough estimates.

Advise the HWC they need to take a class on hydraulics before commenting on, or denying this type of claim. There are a gazillion system 3's with 1 1/2hp pumps on them on this planet!

Now to the reality...

The probable reason that the filter is leaking is that this particular filter is the first generation system 3. Probably at least 15-20 years old (guess), and the tank o ring could be as old. Even an o-ring 5 years old can leak depending how many times it has been taken apart and reassembled. Each time you disassemble, then tighten those hand clamps, you crush the o-ring a little more, and that takes a little form from the oring because it wont rebound(return to its original form) the same when disassembled. Because of this, it will take a little more tightening each time to make it leak proof. Now you get the picture how the o-ring begins to leak.

If it is the o-ring that is leaking(around the middle of the tank), it is a maintenance issue, and you should probably pay for it.

Sorry i rambled on, only to tell you in the end that it's on you...

Good Luck

[bwise101]

So, if I'm understanding you the possible problem would be pressure and not GPM. The HW company only mentioned the GPM as a mis-match. How can I tell what the pressure should be for the filter and if the pump is within that range?

Also, any idea what the squeezed pipe could be caused by. The HW said the pump ran dry and it boiled the water and it melted the pipe. That pipe is bringing water from the pool. Between that pipe and the pump is the pumps screen filter. It doesn't make sense to me that nothing would happen to the screen filter (plastic) but would the plastic pipe.

Thanks,

Byron

First, i don't think you could get 100 gpm to that filter, with the size pipe you are using. Now pressure, that's a different story. I think that pressure, not too much flow, is causing the leak. What is the pressure gauge reading when it is running?

Going buy the graph you provided, you would have to have less than 60 feet of pipe between your pool, and the equipment to get even close to 100gpm. Oh, and this is with NO 90 degree elbows in the plumbing. If you have 90's, tee's, or any other fittings that redirect the flow of water(you do), you have to add distance to your run.

With 2 inch pipe:

90 elbow = 5.5 feet

45 = 2.8 feet

Tee's = 4.3 feet (line flow)

12' feet (branch flow)

You have 12 90's that are above ground, that i can see, not to mention the re-directing that goes on inside the heater. And those are all 1 1/2" 90's that are 4 feet each. Thats 48 feet of head just in fittings, and who knows how many more 90's underground en route to the pool. And don't forget to add the straight pipe.

Note that these are rough estimates.

Advise the HWC they need to take a class on hydraulics before commenting on, or denying this type of claim. There are a gazillion system 3's with 1 1/2hp pumps on them on this planet!

Now to the reality...

The probable reason that the filter is leaking is that this particular filter is the first generation system 3. Probably at least 15-20 years old (guess), and the tank o ring could be as old. Even an o-ring 5 years old can leak depending how many times it has been taken apart and reassembled. Each time you disassemble, then tighten those hand clamps, you crush the o-ring a little more, and that takes a little form from the oring because it wont rebound(return to its original form) the same when disassembled. Because of this, it will take a little more tightening each time to make it leak proof. Now you get the picture how the o-ring begins to leak.

If it is the o-ring that is leaking(around the middle of the tank), it is a maintenance issue, and you should probably pay for it.

Sorry i rambled on, only to tell you in the end that it's on you...

Good Luck

[Pool Clown]

Can we get a picture of that collapsed line? There may be more of a claim there than the filter leak.

Ask the HW where they are getting their info from. That 100 gpm on the filter is the max that it can handle.

Like i said before, it is probably a maintenance issue, but the way the HW is handling this is irritating and makes me want to help you fight it, but i don't think you have a case.

[Pool Clown]

So, if I'm understanding you the possible problem would be pressure and not GPM.Yes The HW company only mentioned the GPM as a mis-match. How can I tell what the pressure should be for the filter and if the pump is within that range? That is hard because every system is different(plumbing wise), and pressures will vary between systems. Any where between 10-25 with the filter clean.

Also, any idea what the squeezed pipe could be caused by. The HW said the pump ran dry and it boiled the water and it melted the pipe.That may be correct! What is the HW going to do about fixing that? That pipe is bringing water from the pool. Between that pipe and the pump is the pumps screen filter. It doesn't make sense to me that nothing would happen to the screen filter (plastic) but would the plastic pipe. Melting point of the pipe is lower than the pump pot. Sometimes the basket(screen) will melt. All depends on how long the pump ran dry.

Thanks,

Byron

Is the melted/squeezed pipe above ground? Or was it unearthed and exposed?

[bwise101]

It looks like the crimp is mostly above ground. Here is a bigger picture:

Thanks,

Byron

So, if I'm understanding you the possible problem would be pressure and not GPM.Yes The HW company only mentioned the GPM as a mis-match. How can I tell what the pressure should be for the filter and if the pump is within that range? That is hard because every system is different(plumbing wise), and pressures will vary between systems. Any where between 10-25 with the filter clean.

Also, any idea what the squeezed pipe could be caused by. The HW said the pump ran dry and it boiled the water and it melted the pipe.That may be correct! What is the HW going to do about fixing that? That pipe is bringing water from the pool. Between that pipe and the pump is the pumps screen filter. It doesn't make sense to me that nothing would happen to the screen filter (plastic) but would the plastic pipe. Melting point of the pipe is lower than the pump pot. Sometimes the basket(screen) will melt. All depends on how long the pump ran dry.

Thanks,

Byron

Is the melted/squeezed pipe above ground? Or was it unearthed and exposed?

[Pool Clown]

That should be covered.

[Bugman1400]

Seems to me that the solution to both the filter leak and the collapsed pipe are cheap to fix. Did you involve the HW company because you thought the whole filter system needed to be replaced? For the collapsed pipe, I would just dig down a few inches and replace with SCH 40 PVC. It looks like to me that your collapsed pipe is very thinned walled pipe and may have deformed over a period of years because of the constant negative pressure on the pump's suction side. The collapsed pipe could also reduce the flow rate.

[Pool Clown]

When you purchase a home, you may purchase, or a home warranty may be purchased for you. Usually is for a year. It is in theory that, if anything goes wrong(other than normal wear and tear), it is covered, and you have no out of pocket expenses for the repair. The filter leaking, if it is the o-ring, would be considered normal W&T. The collapsed line is not normal, and should be covered. That pipe didn't shrink up due to constant negative pressure, it heated up due to the pump running dry, or i should say was subject to heat, and became mis-shaped.

As the OP stated earlier, the HW informed him of this pipe, or at least gave him an explanation of what happened. So if the HW knew of this and still accepted the policy, then they should absolutely cover it.

Is this an easy fix? Sure, but its about getting the HW to cover it and not have any OOP expense if possible.

[Bugman1400]

When you purchase a home, you may purchase, or a home warranty may be purchased for you. Usually is for a year. It is in theory that, if anything goes wrong(other than normal wear and tear), it is covered, and you have no out of pocket expenses for the repair. The filter leaking, if it is the o-ring, would be considered normal W&T. The collapsed line is not normal, and should be covered. That pipe didn't shrink up due to constant negative pressure, it heated up due to the pump running dry, or i should say was subject to heat, and became mis-shaped.

As the OP stated earlier, the HW informed him of this pipe, or at least gave him an explanation of what happened. So if the HW knew of this and still accepted the policy, then they should absolutely cover it.

Is this an easy fix? Sure, but its about getting the HW to cover it and not have any OOP expense if possible.

Can you elaborate on why the pipe heated up and collapsed on itself instead of ballooned out?

[Pool Clown]

* Water level could have fallen too low.

* Pump lid oring could have unknowingly fallen off when removed to clean pot basket.

* Clogged internal air bleed(in the filter) creating a back flow when the pump shut off clearing all water from the pump.

* Any condition that would cause the pump to run with no water for an extended period of time.

Before you tell me that any of those couldn't happen, I've witnessed all the above and more.

Can you explain a condition where the suction line would heat up and balloon out?

[Bugman1400]

* Water level could have fallen too low.

* Pump lid oring could have unknowingly fallen off when removed to clean pot basket.

* Clogged internal air bleed(in the filter) creating a back flow when the pump shut off clearing all water from the pump.

* Any condition that would cause the pump to run with no water for an extended period of time.

Before you tell me that any of those couldn't happen, I've witnessed all the above and more.

Can you explain a condition where the suction line would heat up and balloon out?

No, I cannot think of a reason why a pipe, when heated and under constant negative pressure, would balloon out. I do appreciate you proving my point of the negative pressure.

What about the dry pump? Why would that heat up the pipe? Does the pump motor overheat or is it the boiling water that heats the pipe?

[Pool Clown]

Water moving though the pump is the only thing that keeps the seal from over-heating. Once prime is lost, and the pump cannot draw water, the seal begins to heat up(friction) and if left long enough, can boil out the remaining water, and/or melt the pipe(s). The amount of heat displayed in the picture makes me think the outlet should be melted as well. It is possible that the outlet was repaired and the inlet over looked, or maybe was repaired, just didn't go back far enough with the replumb.

I looked at the photo again and yes, it looks like there has been plumbing repairs on both inlet and outlet of this pump. My guess would be the water level in the pool dropped to low. and the pump may had run for several hours to do this.