Greenish Tint

[arf1410]

Several days after filling, the water seems to have a clear (not cloudy) greenish tint. From googling, it appears this is probably from a high copper content, but have not found any clear guidance what to do about this, or if there is really any need to do anything. Is it simply an appearance issue, or is a bad for skin or the spa?

[waterbear]

Like I said to you before, your dealer should be able to help you since their advice is conflicting to mine and you question mine. Be sure to buy whatever they tell you to. You might want to have a repair tech see if your heat exchanger has been damaged by low pH also (from your KemTek sulfuric acid from Costco). There is a good chance that that is the reason for your green water.

Good luck to you once again.

[arf1410]

I would also ask questions to the local spa shop, but I have less confidence in their knowledge, and ability to provide answers that aren't biased based on desire to sell product. My questions for this forum are not to imply I think you are incorrect, or less knowledgeable that the local spa shop, but for me to learn and understand what is going on. Once (or if) you get past your cynicism, you are capable of providing good information. Remember you did previously state that sulfuric acid was more a problem with pools than spas, and I'm sure you were being sarcastic when you mentioned heat exchanger damage, as it occurred after only a couple days, and I do not believe the pH ever went below 7.4 If you, or anyone else, feels like giving me some reasonable suggestions, or links, on the clear green tint, that would be appreciated!

[waterbear]

Actually I was not being sarcastic. Green water is from copper and copper in spas normally comes from damaged heat exchangers.

Then again, the water might be yellow and if you have a blue spa (common scenerio) then it will look green. Yellow water is iron and normally from the fill water.

BTW, just to refresh your memory as to why I answer you the way I do I am going to post some of the interactions we had in a dfferent thread. There were more.

Best I can tell, Chlorine and Bromine will play nice together, so it is OK if the bromine tablets are floating in a chlorine system, for that first week or 2 after a refill? Can you point me to a good link which states how much household bleach to add? If I cannot find the sodium bromide at my neighborhood spa shop, I think I;ll use bleach as an interim solution...

Have you read the second post in this thread? It answers these questions in no uncertain terms! I suggest you go back and read it before posting again!

Yeah, I had read that second post. I went in to the major spa retail chain (around since 1959) and asked for Sodium Bromide granules. I now notice what I bought is 15% Sodium Bromide, 83% Sodium Dichloro-s triazinetroine...will it be a problem to use this, even though your early post does say pure NaBr?

<facepalm>

Make sure that you get sodium bromide in either powder or liquid form that is sold to start the bromide reserve or 'bromide bank' and not a one step bromine product that is a mixture of mostly dichlor and a little blt of sodium bromide. READ THE LABEL! It should only contain sodium bromide (and water if in liquid form).

Above is a quote from the second post. The bold face type is in the original post because it is an important point! I guess you really didn't read it, did you?

and here is where I gave up (and a note to those reading--the non chlorine shock he refers to is NOT MPS but sodium persulfate, a known irritant.

But it looks like I can use the pure NaBr + the non-chlorine shock I have OR this 15% NaBr/82%NaCl, etc WITHOUT the shock stuff, and be OK, albeit with a chlorine system transitioning to a Br system over a week or two?

Do what you want. Good luck.

hmmm...my goal is to do what is appropriate

Then reread the second post in this thread and follow it to the letter OR read about the dichlor/bleach method if you want to give chlorine a try AND get yourself a good test kit, either Taylor K-2106 for bromine or K-2006 for chlorine.

It's that easy.

...I am just trying to reconcile what is posted here with what I am told by the local spa dealer, and read elsewhere on the internet.

Then don't pay attention to what is posted here and don't post here if it is conflicting you. It really is that easy.

The product manufacturer's website states:

"Apply SpaGuard Brominating Concentrate following label directions. Establish proper bromine residual of 3-6 ppm." and doesn't mention any need to shock the system if I use this product. Your last post implies this is not correct. Please help me and the other forum users understand why this is incorrect information on the SpaGuard website.

<facepalm>

Take a bit of time to read through the forum and you might learn something. Or not.

Like I said, good luck.

[waterbear]

And continued:

making some progress...My local Spa dealer / chain sells the Taylor test kit, but basically said it is an overkill for normal home use if you live nearby, as they do in store testing for free. Among other items, my pH was 7.7, not too bad, but still need to lower it a bit. In my earlier post, you recommended against the Spa-Kem pH decreaser, which is 10 % Sulfuric acid, but in the same post you state dry acid, which you do recommend, forms sulfuric acid when added to water. So was your recommendation against Sulfuric acid for safety reasons, or other?

Why not just listen to your local spa dealer. It will be easier for you and good luck. I am sure he would like to test your water and then tell you what chemicals you need to buy every week when you go in to have your water tested.

I would be very surprised if he sells the K-2106 test kit. More likely he sells the K-2005.

The reference I made to KemTek and their sulfuric acid is more applicable to pools since they sell it for pool use and dilute it and sell it for spa use. Dry acid is easier to measure and harder to overdose than Muriatic acid (given the small volume of water in a spa) which is what is normally sold for pool use which is why I recommend it over muriatic for spas BUT muriatic has less negative impact on the water in either a pool or spa..

Sulfates can potentate metal corrosion but since spa water is changed every 3-4 months it is less of an issue for spas then pools.

Your local dealer/chain can surely advise you what you need to do with your spa when they test your water. Just be sure and buy everything they tell you to buy and forget the fact that they are in the business to sell you as many chemicals as they can because that is their bottom line. I am sure your dealer will get you well taken care of so you really don't need to post your progress. Good Luck to you.

Why not just listen to your local spa dealer. It will be easier for you and good luck.

The data provided, while I'm sure is accurate, is followed by recommendations from some software provided by BioGuard/BioLab, and all the recommendations are for the type and quanitities of the BioGuards products.

Yes, and be sure to buy everything that the Bioguard ALEX system tell you you need!

I don't have a lot of confidence in the 18 year old young man who ran the tests to be able to provide a lot of additional insight,

Why not, he works in a pool/spa store so he is an expert, right?

and I have some Spa-Kem chemicals I would like to use up, rather than trash.

Then use them and when you run out you can get more at Costco!

Good luck to you.

Starting to get the idea?

Once again I say to you good luck. You were given good advice and chose not to follow it. You wanted to modify it because you did not pay attention and bought the wrong chemicals. You wanted to use sodium persulfate and sulfuric acid even though they are not good choices for spa use for a laundry list of reasons and you were told so but you wanted to 'use them up'.

My reason is that when (not if) you would have problems (as you do now) I did not want to get caught in the middle of it since you did not want to follow very simple instructions that WORK.

Let me know when you have your test kit as recommended, are using he chemicals recommended, and post a set of test results if you would like my advice. Otherwise ask the 18 year old and his ALEX machine next time he tests your water OR try and ask someone at Costco next time you buy more KemTek chemicals.

[arf1410]

not sure why I bother, as we don't seem to be making much forward progress, never-the-less, I'll try again.

You originally implied it is a mechanical problem, then later, chemical.

/1/ If chemical, is there a fix, or just drain and start again? which product that I added contained the copper? If indeed the issue is excess copper, is that a physiological problem - ie skin irritation? other?

/2/ If it is mechanical / some thing from the heat exchanger - Is this some type of by-product from the manufacturing process, and the system should be flushed and it will clear up? If this is more permanent, what sort of problem/defect with the heat exchanger would cause it to exrete copper into the water?

[waterbear]

I will make this very simple. Your hot tub has a heater. The heat exchanger (the thingie that makes the water hot) is basically a copper tube. Low pH will cause it to dissolve into the water. If the water is green (and not yellow against a blue tub shell) then you most likely have copper in the water and I just explained how copper usually gets into hot tub water. Copper can also come from a copper based algacide, a copper based "alternative sanitizer system", an ionizer or mineral santizer, or from the fill water but USUALLY copper in spa water is from the heat exchanger and this happens because the pH is too low. If you had a good test kit you would have been able to monitor the pH accurately.

If the water is actually yellow and the shell is blue colored then the water will also appear green but this yellow color is normally from iron in the water supply.

Both scenarios are chemical. I don't know where you get mechanical. The first one is preventable with proper water balance. The second is fixable. However, a full set of test results are needed and the ALEX system is notorious for not being accurate so we are back to square one. You need a good test kit. However, the ALEX system should be able to test for both copper and iron. However, if the test results come back negative that does not always mean there is no metal in the water so it is usually better to add a seqestrant and see if that clears up the problem. However, sequestrants are not created equal. You want one that is HEDP and not EDTA (the active ingredient).

Metals in the water are not desirable. Copper is what makes hair green. Period! Metals can stain spa shells and it can be very difficult to remove the staining.

(Then again, you want to soak in sodium persulfate that you got from Costco even though it is an irritant and you were told so, so why are you worried.)

My suggestion is to reread the post on how to do 3 step bromine (or if you want to try chlorine get a K-2006 and read the posts on the dichlor/bleach method), drain the tub and start over following the advice in that post and hope that there is no permanent damage to your heater.

First step is to get yourself a good test kit and balance your water.

Then you want to use sodium bromide (and not a mix of dichlor and sodium bromide) to create your bromide bank.

Then just follow the rest of the instructions.

It's really pretty easy.

IF you have any problems following the procedure (LIKE YOU ALEADY HAVE) reread it. If you still don't understand what to do post a question and I will explain it in simple terms. Fair enough?

IF you don't want to do this then please take your problems to the dealer you are seeing and follow his advice.

[bdubya200]

Waterbear, why not just simply ignore this poster rather than continually interject and condescend to a poster that isnt taking your advice? You may be in the right that you gave good advice, and they ignored it. Rather than come across the way you are, just simply ignore it and walk away. not sure any good can come of your current appraoch. It lessens you and makes you seem cranky.

[gman]

Waterbear has my empathy.

He offers his knowledge and experience about water chemistry willingly and repeatedly on this forum (and other forums) time and again. I assume he does this voluntarily and without compensation for the sole purpose of helping those who need assistance in hot tub/pool water chemistry. From the many threads of thanks and appreciation on this forum, many people have had good results by following his advice.

Waterbear stepped up to the plate again giving this poster information and advice. He also referred the poster to read the Bromine post (and the Dichlor/Bleach post, as an alternative) to educate himself/herself on procedures that have proven successful in achieving and maintaining good water chemistry. These posts are there for all to read, print-out, and re-read again and again until learned and understood. It is apparent by reading this thread that the poster did not read those posts thoroughly or carefully. And although this poster sincerely wants advice, as a student that needs to educate himself/herself on hot tub water chemistry and maintenance, he/she is not carrying his/her load, i.e., reading and learning. Rather than do the homework, the poster has melded the advice from two different sources before he/she understands enough to do so. The poster wants to break the mold before he's/she's learned how to make either mold (the advice offered on this forum or the advice from his/her dealer).

We've all been asked for advice about one thing or another. People come to you for help. You're willing and glad to provide it. You have the knowledge and experience that the petitioner needs and seeks. You give it and it is ignored or trivialized. We've all felt frustrated, irritated, and perhaps insulted by such a reaction to our sound advice. After all, the petitioner came to us...we did not go to the petitioner. If you don't want our advice, why ask for it? I don't think I'm mistaken in believing this kind of response from the help-seeker annoys many people.

For good or ill, people have the right to learn things their own way. Some people must reinvent the wheel, even if the process is costly to the inventor and the results predictable by others more experienced. You can't help such people. I don't blame waterbear for walking away or the attitude.

My $0.02 (offered even though not asked for)

narukami

[waterbear]

I assume he does this voluntarily and without compensation for the sole purpose of helping those who need assistance in hot tub/pool water chemistry.

That is correct but I also spend about 2-3 hours a day trying to keep this forum spam free along with the rest of the mods and we also do this on a volunteer basis so it is a bit frustrating when I feel I that someone is just wasting my time.

[bdubya200]

I assume he does this voluntarily and without compensation for the sole purpose of helping those who need assistance in hot tub/pool water chemistry.

That is correct but I also spend about 2-3 hours a day trying to keep this forum spam free along with the rest of the mods and we also do this on a volunteer basis so it is a bit frustrating when I feel I that someone is just wasting my time.

Which is greatly appreciated. The frustration is understood. It might be better to try your best, which you have, and then simply ignore the poster(s) that refuse to listen, as opposed to getting snarky. It will really make you feel much better I think, in addition to only wasting some of your time, instead of drudging up old posts and , even though being 'right', still beating a dead horse that he/she obviously wont listen to.

[waterbear]

then simply ignore the poster(s) that refuse to listen, as opposed to getting snarky. It will really make you feel much better I think, in addition to only wasting some of your time, instead of drudging up old posts and , even though being 'right', still beating a dead horse that he/she obviously wont listen to.

and I think I will start by ignoring you since I find it a bit presumptuous of you to tell me what would make "me feel much better". (Or are you going on about this because I was the one who had to give you a warning a few months back for a behanvior that you are getting very close to once again?)

This thread is going nowhere so I am closing it.