Diminishing Cya

[dalehileman]

With an in-ground of 35,000 gal, for about 12 years I had fairly successful results with a weekly dose of supermarket algi-clar simply using tabs as needed to provide FC. However when recently it became difficult to maintain FC it was suggested my CYA might be too high so I invested in a bottle of strips which although somewhat inconclusive appeared to confirm that possibility

However we were told that the only practical way to reduce CYA was to replace the water. So we drained 2/3 of the pool, then replacing it with tap water, after which sure enough CYA had evidently dropped and I was able to easily achieve a reasonable FC level

Maybe after 13 years it was about time. However I am wondering if there isn't an easier way. I remember vaguely from high-school chemistry that almost any base will neutralize almost any acid. So couldn't regular applications of soda ash reduce CYA

Or is the problem that this approach might also increase pH to an excessive level

Thanks all

[waterbear]

With an in-ground of 35,000 gal, for about 12 years I had fairly successful results with a weekly dose of supermarket algi-clar simply using tabs as needed to provide FC. However when recently it became difficult to maintain FC it was suggested my CYA might be too high so I invested in a bottle of strips which although somewhat inconclusive appeared to confirm that possibility

However we were told that the only practical way to reduce CYA was to replace the water. So we drained 2/3 of the pool, then replacing it with tap water, after which sure enough CYA had evidently dropped and I was able to easily achieve a reasonable FC level

Maybe after 13 years it was about time. However I am wondering if there isn't an easier way. I remember vaguely from high-school chemistry that almost any base will neutralize almost any acid. So couldn't regular applications of soda ash reduce CYA

Or is the problem that this approach might also increase pH to an excessive level

Thanks all

First, in case anyone is interested here is the definition of dalehileman from the urban dictionary:

"an irritating, repetitive message board poster"

so there is a good possibility that this poster is just trying to get a rise out of everyone. But to remain fair I wll try and answer the question (even though i know this username from another board where he did the same thing).

Short answer to your question is that water replacement is the only way to lower CYA. It is also abvious from your question that you really have a limited knowledge of what CYA does and of the chemistry going on in your pool in general. Don't feel bad, you are in the majority of pool owners, service techs, and pool store employees.

It is not the acidity of the CYA you want to neutralize (which is all soda ash will do) since mucht CYA in pool water exists in the form of cyanurate ion at normal pool pH. THIS is what you have to remove from the water and the only way to do that is by water replacement. It really does not matter if it is in the form of cyanurate ion or cynaruic acid. They both eventuall combine with the chlorine in the water and form chlorinated cyanurates. (The difference between cyanuric acid and cynaruate ion is whehter there is a hydrogen attached or not. Higher pH--excess OH ions--will cause the hydrogen to split from the cyanuric acid and combine with the OH to form water, leaving behind the cyanurate ion. This is the type of 'neutralization' you remember somewhat incorrectly from high school chemistry. You forgot that the product of such neutralization is a 'salt'--called TDS, total dissolved solids, in pools and hot tubs-- and the only way to remove a salt from water is by dilution, distallation, or other purification procedure. TDS is lowered by dilution.)

Very high levels of chlorine can oxidize CYA at very low pH (NOT practical or doable in a pool so don't try it) and bacterial action in a closed pool can consume CYA. However, CYA is broken down to ammonia and high levels of ammonia in a pool will create a HUGH chlorine demand that is extremely difficult to handle. Water replacement is once again often needed.

So, once again, short answer to your question is that water replacement is the only way to lower CYA.

By the way, I hope this does not become a repeat of the discussion you had here where you got excellent advice and proceeded to ignore it, truly living up to the definition of your username:

http://www.poolspafo...=1entry101809

[dalehileman]

bear, thank you for that

But alas you seem angry

Though not to be excessively OT I will discuss anything with anyone, am dalehileman@me.com and apparently don't care who knows it

[waterbear]

do not feed the trolls and they will leave

I now have confirmation!

[waterbear]

More troll confirmation. He edited his previous post to add his email address since he knew he was busted in this thread. It's a shame when someone wastes time of the people on forums who are genuinely trying to help people by sharing their knowledge and expertise (and I am not referring to myself here). It's also rather sad that someone has so much time on their hands that they find a need to do so, or to "discuss anything with anyone". Sad.

[dalehileman]

Their being OT I was merely suggesting such matters might better be discussed via another medium such as email

[waterbear]

do not feed the troll

[chem geek]

Very high levels of chlorine can oxidize CYA at very low pH (NOT practical or doable in a pool so don't try it) and bacterial action in a closed pool can consume CYA. However, CYA is broken down to ammonia and high levels of ammonia in a pool will create a HUGH chlorine demand that is extremely difficult to handle. Water replacement is once again often needed.

A minor correction: it's high levels of chlorine at high pH, not low pH, that oxidizes cyanuric acid (as far as I know). This is described in Patent 4,075,094.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that the first issue you need to address is getting accurate chemistry information. Your post seems to indicate that you never really knew what your cyanuric acid level was. It also seems that you still do not know your cyanuric acid level. Without accurate information, you're just guessing and hoping.

Reverse Osmosis treatments are available in some areas, although they are not common. Reverse Osmosis will remove cyanuric acid.

[quantumchromodynamics]

However I am wondering if there isn't an easier way.

The easy way is to routinely measure all of your chemical levels (with a good test kit, not strips) and adjust as necessary.

The easy way is to not add too much cyanuric acid in the first place.

Cyanuric acid is only added through the use of cyanuric acid, dichlor or trichlor. Don't overuse these chemicals and you won't need to worry about trying to reduce the levels.

[waterbear]

Do not feed the troll.

[dalehileman]

"Your post seems to indicate that you never really knew what your cyanuric acid level was."

Sorry Guru, I was using a strip system, notoriously inaccurate to be sure, that appeared over 100 although a sample taken to or friendly local Bill's Pool and Spa was declared "normal"

"The easy way is to not add too much cyanuric acid in the first place."

I have never deliberately added CYA although I'm advised that the continued use of tab as well as some forms of shock do increase it and that's one reason why I'm curious to learn what's considered the absolutely lowest FC level one may tolerate, in order to minimize requirements for maintaining it at the higher level of 1.0 to 3.0 usually recommended

It had been suggested that part of my problem keeping FC concentration up might owe to excessive CYA after some 12 years exclusive use of tabs whereupon it was suggested I replace at least half the water

So accordingly I replaced 2/3 which brought it below 100. But I still find it difficult to get "normal" FC readings without frequent use of shock. Instead it has been suggested I use bleach but my Better Half won't let me

[waterbear]

Read this. (If you wonder why keep checking out the links)

and this (thread was locked)

and this

and this

and this (This one is a must read!)

and this (This also, he got banned on this board for three days in this thread)

and this

and this

and this (thread was locked)

and this

and this

and this (this is a good example, the thread got locked. Be sure to read the second page also!!)

and this

and this (be sure to read down to the last three posts on page one and the posts at the top of page two, they say a LOT. This thread was locked also!))

There are many more examples.

Do not feed the troll.

BTW, Dalehiliman, do you still have "approaching Alzheimer's"?

[dalehileman]

Slightly OT but I can no longer resist. Waterbear reminds me of Inspector Javert in Victor Hugo's Les Miserables who relentlessly goes after Jean Valjean (me) who had stolen a loaf of bread, following him from place (DBS) to place (TPF) to place (PSF) hounding him until he's a mental wreck

[waterbear]

Slightly OT but I can no longer resist. Waterbear reminds me of Inspector Javert in Victor Hugo's Les Miserables who relentlessly goes after Jean Valjean (me) who had stolen a loaf of bread, following him from place (TPF) to place (PSF) hounding him until he's a mental wreck

It was my job at TFP because I was a mod there at the time you joined and started with disruptive postings and it is how I originally found out about you. I also know you from DBStalk (where your threads also got locked) and a few other places where you have done the same thing. It is telling that you have made enemies on so many forums that your usename has ended up in the Urban Dictionary. You don't want help with your 'problems', you never take the advice given--whether about pool or satellite TV or trying to get a book published, you just want interaction and argument and you have demonstrated that time and again. It is sad that your life is so empty that you have nothing better to do than waste a lot of people's time on forums (example is how this current problem has been posted on TFP and locked before you posted it here and couldn't 'play' over there anymore.

Do not feed the troll!

to everyone else, I am suggesting not to waste your time with this one because nothing will come of it. By playing his game you only encourage him to continue. He stays in a forum until they get tired of his antics and then moves on to the next one. Case in point, he stopped posting on DBStalk in 2008 after his threads were locked and then moved on to TFP (last thread there locked in July) and Accenutate Writers in 2009 (last post there in Dec 2009) and here in 2010.

[waterbear]

Slightly OT but I can no longer resist. Waterbear reminds me of Inspector Javert in Victor Hugo's Les Miserables who relentlessly goes after Jean Valjean (me) who had stolen a loaf of bread, following him from place (DBS) to place (TPF) to place (PSF) hounding him until he's a mental wreck

WOW! He even edited this post once he found out I knew him from DBStalk also and added that in.! Amazing!

Both versions of the his posts are quoted in this and the above post.

Do NOT feed the troll!

[dalehileman]

Wow such persistence! Well, I wish waterbear luck in his life's quest, whatever that is

For those lazy or forgetful folk such as I who wish to minimize the tasks of maintenance, by the sheerest luck I had stumbled upon the simple routine described in my first post that served me well for some 12 years, the supermarket algi-clari by Kem-Tek is descried as "Step 4 of 5-Step Pool Care," with a weekly application of about 1/2 gallon..

...whereas the Shock Quick by the same firm which I had only recently began using, with a recommended maintenance dose of 1 lb weekly, is described as "Step 3"

Don't know steps 1, 2, and 5

[waterbear]

Wow such persistence! Well, I wish waterbear luck in his life's quest, whatever that is

For those lazy or forgetful folk such as I who wish to minimize the tasks of maintenance, by the sheerest luck I had stumbled upon the simple routine described in my first post that served me well for some 12 years, the supermarket algi-clari by Kem-Tek is descried as "Step 4 of 5-Step Pool Care," with a weekly application of about 1/2 gallon..

...whereas the Shock Quick by the same firm which I had only recently began using, with a recommended maintenance dose of 1 lb weekly, is described as "Step 3"

Don't know steps 1, 2, and 5

Do not feed the troll.

[dalehileman]

"A minor correction: it's high levels of chlorine at high pH, not low pH, that oxidizes cyanuric acid (as far as I know). This is described in Patent 4,075,094."

Thank you geek for that input. As I had been advised the only feasible way to reduce CYA was to replace the water. I am wondering if a feasible alternative to minimize one's water bill might not simply be to run with a prolonged shock so I wonder if that's so and if off the top of your head you might be able to specify the necessary FC concentration and for a given level of CYA how long one might have to maintain it

That's not meant to imply however that one ought to go 12 years as I did with the same water but thanks again geek

[waterbear]

"A minor correction: it's high levels of chlorine at high pH, not low pH, that oxidizes cyanuric acid (as far as I know). This is described in Patent 4,075,094."

Thank you geek for that input. As I had been advised the only feasible way to reduce CYA was to replace the water. I am wondering if a feasible alternative to minimize one's water bill might not simply be to run with a prolonged shock so I wonder if that's so and if off the top of your head you might be able to specify the necessary FC concentration and for a given level of CYA how long one might have to maintain it

That's not meant to imply however that one ought to go 12 years as I did with the same water but thanks again geek

Do not feed the troll.

[waterbear]

"A minor correction: it's high levels of chlorine at high pH, not low pH, that oxidizes cyanuric acid (as far as I know). This is described in Patent 4,075,094."

Thank you geek for that input. As I had been advised the only feasible way to reduce CYA was to replace the water. I am wondering if a feasible alternative to minimize one's water bill might not simply be to run with a prolonged shock so I wonder if that's so and if off the top of your head you might be able to specify the necessary FC concentration and for a given level of CYA how long one might have to maintain it

That's not meant to imply however that one ought to go 12 years as I did with the same water but thanks again geek

Richard, on second though, just tell him to dump a bunch of soda ash and chlorine in his pool. It's what he wants to do so let him do it. Maybe it will solve the problems of him on all the forums he haunts. He might even win a Darwin Award in the process! He really doesn't care about learning how to care for his pool, does not want to test his water, and doesn't seem to care about sanitation so just let him do what he wants to do and leave everyone else alone. It doesn't matter that the patent you spoke of is not a practical way to reduce CYA in pools or it would have been implemented in the past 35 years since it was patented.

Better yet, let the fool completely drain his pool and maybe it will pop out of the ground and we will be done with him instead of listening to the advice given to him on another forum until the thread got locked, not to mention the same advice he got the year before on that forum.

I have said that you can lead a pool owner to water but you can't make him think. Dalehileman is a prime example (if he even OWNS a pool. I almost feel that he researches enough to be able to post a stupid question on a board, be it pool or TV or whatever and then uses it as an opportunity to get attention because so many of his posts are just SO over the top that they set off my BS meter.)

[dalehileman]

But Javert, Champmatgieu was probably just as guilty of something else

[waterbear]

But Javert, Champmatgieu was probably just as guilty of something else

and I rest my case.