Shocked When Touching The Water

[ChaiSTi]

Hello,

I have a question for all the techs and electrical gurus in here.

If I'm getting shocked here and there when I touch the water, what issues could I be facing with? Shouldn't the GFCI tripped to prevent this? Could the GFCI be bad? TIA.

[ChaiSTi]

also, are there any other possibilities that you can think of that may allow electrical changes to be in the water w/o tripping the GFCI? The only thing that I can think of that has direct contact with the water is the heater and the pump's wet end. But if these two are properly grounded, shouldn't that trip the GFCI?

[wuice]

Hello,

I have a question for all the techs and electrical gurus in here.

If I'm getting shocked here and there when I touch the water, what issues could I be facing with? Shouldn't the GFCI tripped to prevent this? Could the GFCI be bad? TIA.

also, are there any other possibilities that you can think of that may allow electrical changes to be in the water w/o tripping the GFCI? The only thing that I can think of that has direct contact with the water is the heater and the pump's wet end. But if these two are properly grounded, shouldn't that trip the GFCI?

GFCI's will only protect if a short is going to ground. (hence ground fault circuit interrupt) It is possible to have voltage leaking to neutral and a GFCI not trip, that said if everything is properly grounded it would still trip. (electricity in water, water touches heater, heater should be grounded, like you said) If your gfci's test button causes it to trip, you can be pretty sure the gfci is working properly. If this is the case i would double check all the grounds, sounds like it's not properly grounded.

One time I encountered this it was actually electricity from another source (very close garden lighting) so the spa gfci wouldn't trip, and the garden lights breaker was non gfci. Another time i saw this was a wire that had a staple through the hot and ground. (located about half way from the main and the spa, his run was improperly grounded)

(Assuming the ground is run back to the main box) If you have a voltmeter i would put one probe stuck into the ground(like dirt ground) and one end in the water to see/confirm the waters voltage. I would then do the same thing on the grounding lug (and dirt again) in the spas control box to trace where it stops, this would help find any grounding issues (i've seen self proclaimed "electricians" that have just left the ground wire loose in a sub panel or junction box)

I have seen heater element that are bad and putting electricity into the water (this is one way i've explained to customers why they need and want a gfci)

much luck

[brettnolan]

wuice,

this is an interesting situation. I have had this happen twice in the past year and the techs at the manufacturer of the spas we sell insist that it's a bad ground. However, two problems...1) I checked everything they recommended and the ground appeared to be fine, 2) I am not an electrician and don't know EVERYTHING I should check or how to do it.

SO, we ended up replacing the heating element and the problem went away. That tells me that the heater WAS probably bad, but the GFI did not trip, so the ground must be bad and the problem will probably return at some point. Does that make sense?

Now I tested the water with one probe on the neutral wire, the other in the water. Of course, that only told me the voltage of the water and nothing else. So should I not use the neutral at all? If there is not actual dirt nearby, what is another option? And how exactly do I find where the ground is broken?

[wuice]

wuice,

this is an interesting situation. I have had this happen twice in the past year and the techs at the manufacturer of the spas we sell insist that it's a bad ground. However, two problems...1) I checked everything they recommended and the ground appeared to be fine, 2) I am not an electrician and don't know EVERYTHING I should check or how to do it.

If you have confirmed you have a working gfci, a bad ground is what explains the gfci not popping. Remember electricity travels in a loop, a gfci measures how much electricity is leaving the hot leg and then checking it with how much is heading back in the neutral leg, as soon as they differ it trips. The only way for not the same amount to come back the neutral leg is for some of the electricity to "leak" to ground, be it an element putting electricity in the water and then traveling back the ground leg, or an electrocution with the current going through a person to ground. People often think of the neutral and the ground as similar because they are connected at the mains, they are very different, and should be treated as such. (ie. not connected until they reach the main house panel)

SO, we ended up replacing the heating element and the problem went away. That tells me that the heater WAS probably bad, but the GFI did not trip, so the ground must be bad and the problem will probably return at some point. Does that make sense?

I agree all the way around, and in essence this person is getting none of the safety a gfci offers. (and equipment protection they also offer)

Now I tested the water with one probe on the neutral wire, the other in the water. Of course, that only told me the voltage of the water and nothing else. So should I not use the neutral at all? If there is not actual dirt nearby, what is another option? And how exactly do I find where the ground is broken?

When diagnosing this type of problem I would never use the neutral, neutral to water (with a working ground) could be telling you the neutral is hot, or the water is hot. (haha hot tubs, get it) I have had to take a long strand of wire to a site and run it off the deck and stick it in the ground. To diagnose these problems you need a 100% for sure path to ground, the only way I trust is to stick one probe into the ground myself. (or on the wire I ran into the ground) From there I would test the water to make sure it has electricity in it, then I would move to the spas control box grounding lug to see if it was hot, if not you are looking at a component that isn't grounded. If it is I would start heading back to the main, testing the ground at every opportunity along the way. (disconnect/gfci, junction boxes, any access to the wires) If the voltage stops you found a break between those testing points.

A person could also test the line if you pulled all the wires from the lugs at both ends (main and tub ends) wirenut the ground to the neutral and test the other ends ground/neutral for continuity, if it has continuity you know the ground isn't broken.

Hope some of this was useful it's getting late and I'm having a hard time understanding some of my own writing at this point....

[ChaiSTi]

Thanks for the tips, wuice. I'll look into the problem and report back when I find the culprit.

[hottublady]

wow I didn't even know that was possible!