Help! Cya 125 !

[~StillinSaigon~]

My 86 Year Old Father has run the gamut of attempting to resolve an Algae and "Bluish-Green" Cloudy 30K In-Ground white Plaster swimming pool with a Hayward #310 Pump with an Auto-Chlorinator. The 500 lbs. of sand was just changed (due to the problem), two weeks ago. The pool is 9 years old. The water readings as of last night were as of follows:

FC 4.1

TC 4.3

CC 0.2

Ph 7.3

Hardness 260

Alkalinity 53

CYA 125

He is using 3 inch (in-line) Trichlorchiro-S-Triazinetrione Pucks, as well as Granular, Sodium Di-Chloro-S-Triazinetrione Hydrated. In accordance with the Pool Facilities here in Richmond, Virginia, he has added 3 - 4 pounds of the Granular mix to the Pool Surface itself. As of this writing, he is taking another Water Sample in to be tested. The pool water right now is Bluish-Green and Cloudy and cannot see the bottom at all. In the Forum Posts I've read thus far, it seems that a partial draining is in order. I've also read about Ammonia not being able to be read by the top of the line testers. I'm an FNG (Effin' New Guy. Sorry, I'm a Former Marine and old terminology dies hard), yet when the Gurus here speak of the relationship of CYA and Ammonia, how does this affect the pool's water? I understand the CYA rate is off the scale, yet insofar as bacteria caused by human waste (urine), no one under the age of 22 has ever been in the pool. If there's a direct relationship between CYA and Ammonia, should an Ammonia Tester be purchased from an Aquarium store to help you guys with this dilemma?

I'm totally new to "Pool Chemistry" and am desperately asking for some help to have this Pool up and running at some point this Year. Please lay it out to me in "Layman's Terms" for my Father and I are not Experts, such as you.

Much Thanks in Advance,

~StillinSaigon®~

[Seahunt]

Without getting into the ammonia thing and keeping it simple, your CYA is too high. CYA helps keep chlorine from breaking down in sunlight but also reduces chlorine's effectiveness (double edged sword). Again, keeping it simple, FC should be about 10% of CYA (not less then 7.5%). Therefore, your FC needs to be about 10. Yes, that is a high chlorine amount. Unfortunately, the only way to reduce CYA is partial drain and refill. If you don't want to drain you can shock to kill the algae then keep a lower chorine level (maybe 6 or 7) but you will have to use a regular dose of algeacide.

I recommend a partial drain and refill if possible. Either way, follow these instruction on getting rid of the algae:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/defeating_algae

As you will see by the above link, if you keep the CYA at the current level, the shock level to kill the algea is going to be around 40ppm.

Oh, and switch today to regular uncented bleach or liquid chlorine. It does not add CYA which, ideally, should be around 50. You can go to http://www.poolcalculator.com/ to figure out how much liquid chorine to add to get to the correct levels. It can also show you what percentage of water to drain to get the CYA down. Good luck!

[PaulR]

I wrote a long reply in your other post. Let's try to keep all the discussion in one place.

--paulr

[salpst]

Without getting into the ammonia thing and keeping it simple, your CYA is too high. CYA helps keep chlorine from breaking down in sunlight but also reduces chlorine's effectiveness (double edged sword). Again, keeping it simple, FC should be about 10% of CYA (not less then 7.5%). Therefore, your FC needs to be about 10. Yes, that is a high chlorine amount. Unfortunately, the only way to reduce CYA is partial drain and refill. If you don't want to drain you can shock to kill the algae then keep a lower chorine level (maybe 6 or 7) but you will have to use a regular dose of algeacide.

I recommend a partial drain and refill if possible. Either way, follow these instruction on getting rid of the algae:

http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/defeating_algae

As you will see by the above link, if you keep the CYA at the current level, the shock level to kill the algea is going to be around 40ppm.

Oh, and switch today to regular uncented bleach or liquid chlorine. It does not add CYA which, ideally, should be around 50. You can go to http://www.poolcalculator.com/ to figure out how much liquid chorine to add to get to the correct levels. It can also show you what percentage of water to drain to get the CYA down. Good luck!

I know another way besides draining your pool to lower CYA...

[quantumchromodynamics]

I think that SAL is referring to using reverse osmosis to reduce the cyanuric acid. I think that that would be a good idea if that service is available.

The "Bluish-green" has me concerned about possibly high levels of copper that could cause serious staining. Based on the low pH and TA, if there is a heater, the copper heat exchanger is probably seriously corroded. Have the water tested for copper and iron.

I recommend that you not use anything to raise the pH as it could cause a bad reaction.

If the TA is 53, then the carbonate alkalinity is only about 11. That's not good. You are going to want to bring that up, but slowly and carefully, as I think that you are at risk for some serious staining. One of the risks is from copper cyanurate, which is a purple color.

Sal, the poster notes that they are in Richmond, Virginia. Do you know if there is a reverse osmosis service available in the Richmond area? Also, will reverse osmosis be effective on copper?

Does this pool have a heater?

Has copper algaecide ever been used?

Has the pool ever had an ionizer?

Note: Forget about ammonia. That should not be an issue in this case.

If you do a partial drain and refill, you want to minimize the tile and plaster's exposure to heat. Don't do it in direct sunlight.

The best time to do it is at night. Partially drain at the end of the day and don't drain more than can be refilled by morning. You should limit the draining to about 24 inches at a time.

[salpst]

RO removes pretty much all metals, but copper in large is not good for RO Membranes. As far as I know, it's not available in VA, but the process is catching on quickly! We just did a 30,000 gallon pool and lowered TDS from 4'800 to 390. CH was 690 and is now 120ppm. CYA was 100 and is 0ppm. Very happy customer!

[~StillinSaigon~]

I think that SAL is referring to using reverse osmosis to reduce the cyanuric acid. I think that that would be a good idea if that service is available.

The "Bluish-green" has me concerned about possibly high levels of copper that could cause serious staining. Based on the low pH and TA, if there is a heater, the copper heat exchanger is probably seriously corroded. Have the water tested for copper and iron.

I recommend that you not use anything to raise the pH as it could cause a bad reaction.

If the TA is 53, then the carbonate alkalinity is only about 11. That's not good. You are going to want to bring that up, but slowly and carefully, as I think that you are at risk for some serious staining. One of the risks is from copper cyanurate, which is a purple color.

Sal, the poster notes that they are in Richmond, Virginia. Do you know if there is a reverse osmosis service available in the Richmond area? Also, will reverse osmosis be effective on copper?

Does this pool have a heater?

Has copper algaecide ever been used?

Has the pool ever had an ionizer?

Note: Forget about ammonia. That should not be an issue in this case.

If you do a partial drain and refill, you want to minimize the tile and plaster's exposure to heat. Don't do it in direct sunlight.

The best time to do it is at night. Partially drain at the end of the day and don't drain more than can be refilled by morning. You should limit the draining to about 24 inches at a time.

The Pool does have a Heater, but it's never been used, or turned on for that matter. Water was drained out this morning at "zero-dark-thirty", approximately 818 cubic feet, or 6119 Gallons (approximately 1/5th of the 30K volume), and is now being refilled with fresh water. Insofar as the two reliable Pool places here in Richmond, VA, there are no metals in the pool water when tested by both Pool shops.The other questions you've posed, the answer is probably no, due to the fact that anything that's been added has come from the advice of these two Pool places and my Father has nothing denoting that a copper algaecide or an ionizer has ever been used.

~Stillin~

[quantumchromodynamics]

Insofar as the two reliable Pool places here in Richmond, VA, there are no metals in the pool water when tested by both Pool shops.

CYA 125

He is using 3 inch (in-line) Trichlorchiro-S-Triazinetrione Pucks, as well as Granular, Sodium Di-Chloro-S-Triazinetrione Hydrated. In accordance with the Pool Facilities here in Richmond, Virginia, he has added 3 - 4 pounds of the Granular mix to the Pool Surface itself.

If either of these two pool places had anything to do with the condition of the water, then they are not reliable. Anyone advising the use of trichlor and dichlor when the cyanuric acid is over 100, is not competent. And, advising that granular be added directly to the pool surface is nonsense.

If the pool has a heater, then there is copper in the water. It doesn't matter if the heater is used or not, the water still runs through the copper heat exchanger and with the pH and alkalinity being so low, it will corrode the heat exchanger. The description of the water as "Bluish" is also a good indicator of copper. Have the water tested at a water treatment place that sells water softeners, filters etc.

What is the make and model of the heater?

Part of the reason that your water is cloudy is because the plaster is disintegrating due to the poor chemistry.

Once you get the water level back up and the system running you should begin to raise the Total Alkalinity. Add 20 pounds of baking soda and then retest. Mix 2 pounds of baking soda in 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket and pour it in the water. Do that 10 times to add a total of 20 pounds of baking soda. This will help to increase your pH without using a pH increaser product, such as sodium carbonate or Borax.

You should use regular, unscented 6 % bleach to increase the chlorine level. Do not use dichlor or calcium hypochlorite. Dilute the bleach at least 10 to 1 in a bucket before adding it to the water.

You need to be careful about adding anything due to the risk of copper staining. It's likely that staining has already occurred. Anything that raises your pH or chlorine rapidly is likely to cause a bad reaction. Allow at least 1 hour between adding one type of chemical and another. Note:It would be unlikely for the pH to be at 7.3 with your carbonate alkalinity being so low and with the excessive use of trichlor and dichlor. I'm going to guess that the pH was also low recently and that someone added sodium carbonate to try to raise the pH. This would help explain the cloudiness.

[Edit] I have increased the amount of baking soda to add from 10 pounds to 20 pounds.[End edit]

I also think that it would be a good idea to take the heater out of the system if it is not going to be used.

The heat exchanger should be checked for corrosion. Once it becomes corroded, the rate of erosion and corrosion increases significantly, and it's only a matter of time before it begins to leak. It will continue to add copper to the water as it corrodes and erodes.

[quantumchromodynamics]

A note about testing calcium hardness when there are metal ions in the water.

Metal ions, especially copper, will interfere with the calcium hardness test. They will cause the solution to get purple clumps, and they interfere with getting a distinct color change from red to blue. Because of this, people will often continue to add drops of titrant beyond the color change sometimes getting a significantly higher calcium reading than is accurate.

To avoid the problem, you should add 5 to 10 drops of titrating reagent number 12 before doing the test. Be sure to count the initial drops of number 12 in the total number of drops to get the correct calcium reading. If you add too many drops of titrating reagent # 12 at the beginning, then the solution will turn blue upon the addition of reagent number 11 and the test will have to be done over.

Based on your other readings, I suspect that your calcium hardness might be lower than the reported level of 260 ppm. Since I also suspect copper ions in the water, I recommend that the test be repeated to verify. Initially add 10 drops of number 12 before doing the test.

Beware the Fading Endpoint

Occasionally when testing calcium hardness you may get a purple endpoint instead of blue. This is called a fading endpoint and is due to interference from metal ions (most likely copper from algaecides, pipes, or source water). Retest, but prevent the interference by adding five or six drops of hardness reagent to the sample before adding the buffer and indicator. Then proceed as usual. Remember to count the drops of titrant added at the beginning when you calculate the total number of drops required to reach the endpoint.

http://www.taylortechnologies.com/ChemistryTopicsCM.ASP?ContentID=70

Also note that some test kits measure only ionic copper. It is possible that most of the copper is in the form of copper carbonate or other compounds that won't show up on some tests.