Cloudy Pool...help!

[westc]

Opened my pool the end of March and it was crystal clear. Water was in balance. then, I let it run out of chlorine about 2 weeks ago. Pool went cloudy. Shocked the heck out of it and got chlorine on the high side. Pool is still cloudy. Have tried floc to no avail. I took another water sample to the pool shop and they tested for phosphates this time and said they were running around 2500. Put in stuff to reduce phospahtes, but it is still not clearing up. Everything is balanced. What do I do????

[BillinKingstonSprings]

Opened my pool the end of March and it was crystal clear. Water was in balance. then, I let it run out of chlorine about 2 weeks ago. Pool went cloudy. Shocked the heck out of it and got chlorine on the high side. Pool is still cloudy. Have tried floc to no avail. I took another water sample to the pool shop and they tested for phosphates this time and said they were running around 2500. Put in stuff to reduce phospahtes, but it is still not clearing up. Everything is balanced. What do I do????

Check the PH and free chlorine.

[westc]

PH is 7.4; free chlorine is within normal parameters.

[chem geek]

When you used chlorine to shock the pool, what product did you use? Do you know if it was Dichlor or Cal-Hypo or even powdered Trichlor, or was it bleach or chlorinating liquid?

Shocking isn't a one-time event, but a sustained high level of Free Chlorine (FC). To maintain such a high level, you need a good test kit that can measure high levels such as the Taylor K-2006 kit you can get here or the TF-100 you can get here with the latter kit having more volume of reagents so roughly comparably priced per test.

You also did not mention your Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level. A higher CYA level needs a higher FC level to get rid of algae. The normal shock level for getting rid of green algae is an FC that is 40% of the CYA level, but if your CYA level is above 80 ppm then this can become impractical and a partial drain/refill is in order to lower the CYA level anyway.

[westc]

The first 3 times I used "Turbo Shock"; was recommended by the pool store to help the situation. The last 2 or 3 times, and from the time I opened the pool i used Breakout 35.

[westc]

Here are my current levels:

FC 5.0

TC 5.0

CC 0

PH 7; had dropped since I tested yesterday morning. I just added PH UP to the pool after I tested.

Alkalinity 100 ppm

CYA 100 ppm

Calcium Hardness 200 ppm

[westc]

I do need to mention that I do have the Taylor test kit...5 is as high as the FC tests goes and 7.0 is as low as the PH goes. So....FC could be higher and PH could be lower...

[westc]

The pool store finally tested my water for phosphates and they said they were extremely high; 2500 or more. They gave me a product to eliminate the phosphates. I also have some clumpy dirty looking debris that is in the shallow end every morning, could be in deep end as well but cant see. I have vacuumed it to wast several times but theres always the same amount back the next morning.

[PaulR]

Poolife Turbo Shock is 78% calcium hypochlorite (cal-hypo), which will contribute to your CH (calcium hardness) as well as chlorine. With CH 200 this is not a major problem but you don't want to be using it all the time. Omni Breakout 35 is lithium hypochlorite, which will contribute only chlorine but is way more expensive than bleach.

Looking at your numbers, the fundamental problem is the high CYA. You reported CYA 100 but it could be higher as the good CYA test can't really distinguish above 100. As chem geek said, this will make it ridiculously hard to shock the pool properly, and really the solution is to drain the pool maybe halfway and refill.

--paulr

[westc]

Thanks! Do I just shut the skimmer off and let it drain from the floor drain through the pump set on drain?

[poolguyinsc]

CYA of 100 is not your problem. Don't drain your pool. You need to look very closely at your filter equipment. What type of filter do you have? I have customers that routinely have CYA of 100 or more and their pool isn't eternally cloudy. Do what you want, I'm just saying I don't think CYA is the problem. I would have your pool place do a chlorine demand test. I know that usually you won't have a residual FCL reading when you have a demand, but you could be checking your Chlorine too soon after a shock. I've see lots of chlorine demand issues in the past few years. If you have a demand, your pool will never clear up until you take care of it. Most likely reason for your problem is a filtration issue. Go over your system very well.

[westc]

Thanks! I did not drain the pool yet; it is very slowly clearing up. I have wondered about an issue with my sand filter...I just bought the home. The pool was put in in 1979 and the filter is stainless steel and looks like it is probably original equipment. I talked to the pool store that had been servicing the pool before I bought the house. They said they just replaced the sand last season. I am getting alot of "stuff" on the floor out from the returns. I can vacuum in the evening and the very next morning I will have all that crap on the floor again. We do live in very sandy conditions, but even when the wind hasn't blown I will have stuff back in the pool in the morning. The sand filter looks like it comes apart in half, has a retainer ring around the middle of it. Can I open it up without dumping all the sand out all over and look for a problem? The pool store did tell me that I would eventually need to replace the filter, but to baby it along until it quits. They said it will be like $1200 for a new one and valve since I have low clearance where the filter sets. All hlep and advice is greatly appreciated!!

[PaulR]

CYA is stabilizer. If you over-stabilize the pool, you need higher chlorine levels to compensate. One summary of the relevant chemical information is here.

The only practical way to lower the CYA level is to partially drain and refill the pool.

Shutting off the skimmer and pumping out through the bottom drain should work just fine.

--paulr

[polyvue]

Here are my current levels:

FC 5.0

TC 5.0

CC 0

PH 7; had dropped since I tested yesterday morning. I just added PH UP to the pool after I tested.

Alkalinity 100 ppm

CYA 100 ppm

Calcium Hardness 200 ppm

There are certainly many possible causes for cloudy water, including filter problems, but if the stabilizer (CYA) level in your pool is 100 ppm or higher, you would need to raise the level of Free Chlorine (FC) to about 40 ppm to effectively shock for algae.

If CYA is significantly higher (and who knows? it's measuring at the top of the scale) the water may be susceptible to periodic algae blooms. So I would, along with PaulR and chem geek, encourage you to consider draining some of the water. Then retest and drain some more if the CYA remains over 80 ppm. For what it's worth, I keep about 40-50 ppm CYA in my pool, clean my (over-sized) filter once a year and have never had cloudy water or algae problems. Every pool is different, of course, but adding phosphate "removers" or other pool-store concoctions is usually counter-productive.

If you suspect a filtering problem (you wrote that the sand was replaced only last year) do the easy things first: backwash periodically and when the pressure rises 10 lbs over normal PSI, visually inspect the sand for caking / channeling, vacuum debris to waste instead of the filter, check backwash valve o-rings, keep pump and skimmer baskets empty, etc.

[jkusmier]

Assuming the phosphates aren't your problem, I agree w/ Richard, you may not have truly shocked your pool for a sufficient period of time. Else, you might have a filter problem. Even if the sand is just a year old, you might still try backwashing w/ a filter cleaner that will dissolve both calcium deposits and any oily organic buildup (from body oil, pet hair, sunblock, etc.) - scale can cause channeling and the organic buildup can bind the sand to produce a result similar to channeling.

Finally, if you have a vinyl-lined or fiberglass pool, you might want to lower your CH. Note that most substances are more soluble (dissolve more readily into solution) in warmer temps but calcium is an exception - it's more soluble at cooler temps and tends to precipitate (cloud your water) at cooler temps. If the pool clears after lowering the pH a bit, then your CH is too high and needs to be lowered.

[anonymous0001]

I got some good clarifier from my service guy, called SeaKlear. Every time I have some cloudiness, I shock the pool and add this clarifier, then run the pump for 24 hours and it is usually crystal clear by morning. Amazing stuff. Regarding the pool manual, try www.poolschoolpro.com they have a DVD that took all the "mystery" out of my pool. It was much easier than reading a book, and my pool company actually uses it to train their technicians! Good luck!

[chem geek]

CYA of 100 is not your problem. Don't drain your pool. You need to look very closely at your filter equipment. What type of filter do you have? I have customers that routinely have CYA of 100 or more and their pool isn't eternally cloudy. Do what you want, I'm just saying I don't think CYA is the problem. I would have your pool place do a chlorine demand test. I know that usually you won't have a residual FCL reading when you have a demand, but you could be checking your Chlorine too soon after a shock. I've see lots of chlorine demand issues in the past few years. If you have a demand, your pool will never clear up until you take care of it. Most likely reason for your problem is a filtration issue. Go over your system very well.

Though every pool situation is a bit different, a high CYA lowers chlorine effectiveness since more chlorine is bound to CYA and not active against killing algae, oxidizing organics, or killing pathogens (this is known science since at least 1974 as described in this scientific paper). IF the cloudiness is from nascent algae growth, then it will be harder to kill using chlorine alone if the CYA is high. The pool service in our area (which as 400 ppb phosphates in the fill water) services thousands of pools and maintain 4.5 ppm FC using Trichlor pucks/tabs, but they dilute any pool which gets above 100 ppm CYA because too many develop algae if they don't in spite of the manufacturer's claims that CYA is fine up to 200 ppm. The pool service does not understand the chlorine/CYA relationship, but figured this out from experience. There are tens of thousands of pool owners at this and other forums such as The PoolForum and Trouble Free Pool who maintain their pools algae free by maintaining an appropriate Free Chlorine (FC) level relative to the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level and do not use algaecides, phosphate removers, metal ions, clarifiers, flocculants, or weekly shocking. I only add 12.5% chlorinating liquid to my 16,000 pool twice a week (I have a mostly opaque electric safety pool cover, though the pool is used every day for 1-2 hours and longer on weekends) plus a small amount of acid every month or two all for $15 per month. It doesn't get much simpler or cheaper than that.

You are fortunate that in your situations you haven't found CYA to be the issue, but I can also tell you from personal experience in my own pool 7 years ago that it was only as the CYA got higher that I started to get unusual chlorine demand and then dull/cloudy water when I was using Trichlor tabs/pucks. Ever since I've managed the FC/CYA in my pool I haven't had algae problems except for last year when I accidentally let the FC get to zero, but quickly got the pool back in shape (more on that below).

High chlorine demand upon opening a pool can come when a pool is "let go" over the winter when bacteria can convert CYA into ammonia creating a huge chlorine demand. In this case, however, one won't get an FC reading despite adding a lot of chlorine -- they may get CC or just see chlorine get consumed, but the pool can be cleared with chlorine though sometimes it's more practical or less expensive to do some water replacement. This degradation of CYA into ammonia is described technically in this post and how I dealt with this in my own pool when I let the FC get to zero accidentally in this thread.

Richard