Optimizer = Borax?

[Crissy]

Hi, I'm brand new here - please forgive my ignorance! I have a salt system pool, 35,000 gallons, in-ground (in Texas). Current pool temp is fluctuating between 70 and 76 degrees.

My pool store is recommending that I add 90 lbs. of Optimizer to "inhibit algae growth, add sparkle, and soften the water". While I don't doubt that it's a good thing, I don't really want to pay upwards to $250. Am I understanding correctly that I can substitute Borax for Optimizer? And if so, what is the conversion? (Do I need 90 lbs of Borax?)

Thanks in advance,

Crissy

[chem geek]

BioGuard Optimizer Plus has an MSDS that lists 99.5% Disodium Biborate Pentahydrate. This is a synonym for sodium tetraborate pentahydrate.

20 Mule Team Borax is nearly pure sodium tetraborate decahydrate so is nearly identical except that it has more water in it. You can use The Pool Calculator to calculate dosages for either -- Borax or "tetraborate pentahydrate" as well as the amount of Muriatic Acid you need. If you don't want to have to add acid, you can use boric acid instead, but that generally costs a bit more. You can read more about this here at the Pool School at Trouble Free Pool.

[2n3055]

Hold on! BioGuard Optimizer Plus does not require the addition of acid to lower pH after application, as does 20 Mule Team.

You may find that it's more convenient to use Optimizer/ ProTeam Supreme / Natural Chemistry Foundation etc because you're not messing with pH and acid. I have used both and find that Optimizer is just easier, throw it in and don't worry about anything. It's also a product designed for use in swimming pools, with proper instructions and quantities to use right there on the label.

If you're comparing prices between Optimizer and 20 Mule Team, make you you take into consideration the price of whatever acid you'll be using to bring the pH back down.

[chem geek]

I believe you are mixing up Proteam Supreme Plus, which does not require acid addition, with BioGuard Optimizer Plus and Proteam Supreme (without the Plus) which do require acid addition. The MSDS I linked to was for BioGuard Optimizer Plus which was a sodium tetraborate just like 20 Mule Team Borax and requires acid addition as described here and here. The "Plus" is confusing in the BioGuard product since it still requires acid, unlike the Proteam version with the "Plus".

Proteam Supreme Plus contains mostly boric acid with some sodium tetraborate so that it is fairly pH neutral (boric acid by itself is slightly acidic).

20 Mule Team Borax plus Muriatic Acid or the use of boric acid directly are by far the least expensive approaches to adding borates. At much higher pricing are the Proteam and Bioguard products. You can read more about the use of borates here. A price comparison is in this post where boric acid can be obtained for around $1.85 per pound ($1.57 equivalent to Proteam Supreme weight) while Proteam Supreme Plus costs around $3.09 per pound as shown here. 20 Mule Team Borax is around $0.80 per pound, but you need 1.3 times as much (for the decahydrate compared to pentahydrate) so that's equivalent to $1.05 per pound and then the required acid is $0.45 per Borax pound equivalent so that's a total of $1.50 per pound which is only a little less than using Boric Acid directly (which I find more convenient anyway). Proteam Supreme is $2.12 per pound for a large size as shown here so far more expensive than the Borax equivalent. So to sum up costs:

20 Mule Team Borax + Muriatic Acid ---> $1.50 per pound equivalent of Proteam Supreme (+ acid)

Boric Acid directly ---> $1.85 per pound to $1.57 per pound of Proteam Supreme

Proteam Supreme + Muriatic Acid ---> $2.80 per pound

Proteam Supreme Plus ---> $3.09 per pound

So, bottom line, is that buying boric acid direct or using 20 Mule Team Borax plus Muriatic Acid are far cheaper than any of the branded products.

[2n3055]

Sorry, no, I have the empty pail of Optimizer Plus right here. All of it went into the pool without my having to adjust the pH whatsoever. What may have been confusing I admit was my mentionning of other similar products, I just mentionned those so people wouldn't think I'm biased towards BioGuard in any way.

No pH adjustment necessary with the Optimizer Plus product.

There may be confusion on the MSDSs.

It comes down to convenience for the enduser, either dump in whatever amount of BioGuard product and don't worry about it, or in this case drive around looking for 90 pounds of borax and the required amount of acid and add those over a few days. Pools need to be simple to maintain, we must minimize the chance for errors on the part of the user (as far as what product exactly to use and what quantity to use and at what frequency, and the resulting mess if any errors do happen). It's a tradeoff between convenience and price, that's all.

I'm not a fan of BioGuard by any means, in fact I avoid using their products (except for Optimizer) whenever I can.

[chem geek]

Maybe there's a newer BioGuard Optimizer Plus product, but if you looked at the two links I gave to instructions for that product, the first says the following:

To Use Optimizer Plus: Add 1 to 2 lb Optimizer Plus per 1,000 gals of pool water. Add 1/3 of dosage at a time. Always readjust pH to 7.4 - 7.6 and Total Alkalinity to 125 - 150 ppm (vinyl pools; 100 - 125 ppm gunite pools), using BioGuard® Lo 'n Slo pH Decreaser about 4 hours after dosing. Be sure to follow all label directions.

where "Lo 'n Slo" is dry acid (sodium bisulfate). The second says the following:

The initial dosage required is 30lbs. of Optimizer Plus per 10,000 gallons, along with 1.8 gallons of Muriatic Acid per 10,000 gallons.

Are there any ingredients listed on the empty pail that you have? Are you sure that it is BioGuard Optimizer Plus and not some other brand? What exactly do the instructions say on the pail? Again, they may have changed their product and the link to the MSDS and online instructions may be for an earlier version.

I agree that adding boric acid is more convenient and that's what I do when I increase borates in my pool at the start of the season (due to winter rain dilution), but it's far cheaper to buy boric acid directly online than to buy ProTeam Supreme Plus or the BioGuard Optimizer Plus (new version). With any of these, no acid addition is required. As noted in this post, you can buy Boric Acid from The Chemistry Store or from AAA Chemicals (they have smaller sizes as well, for $3 per pound). So for pools where the quantities are large, buying in bulk online is far cheaper. For spas, where the quantities are far lower, getting a small bottle from a local spa store is no big deal.

[2n3055]

[chem geek]

Thanks. The instructions imply that no acid is required, or else they'd say so just as the apparently older online versions did. So BioGuard Optimizer Plus appears to be similar to Proteam Supreme Plus and these are both essentially boric acid with perhaps some sodium tetraborate pentahydrate to make the product closer to pH neutral since boric acid is slightly acidic. 50 ppm Boric Acid added to a typical pool would lower the pH from 7.5 to 7.3 so not a big deal and easy to adjust.

[Crissy]

Thanks for the replies. I found 20 Mule Team borax at Walmart for $2.98. What a deal - $.63/lb vs. $2.77/lb at the pool store.

[polyvue]

Thanks for the replies. I found 20 Mule Team borax at Walmart for $2.98. What a deal - $.63/lb vs. $2.77/lb at the pool store.

Sounds good... don't forget to have a supply of Muriatic Acid (MA) jugs on hand -- and a method for testing borates. You'll need the MA if you're planning on significantly increasing borates in your pool, to correct the pH.

[ny poolguy]

Thanks. The instructions imply that no acid is required, or else they'd say so just as the apparently older online versions did. So BioGuard Optimizer Plus appears to be similar to Proteam Supreme Plus and these are both essentially boric acid with perhaps some sodium tetraborate pentahydrate to make the product closer to pH neutral since boric acid is slightly acidic. 50 ppm Boric Acid added to a typical pool would lower the pH from 7.5 to 7.3 so not a big deal and easy to adjust.

Chem geek,I attended a BioGuard seminar in 2005 and this is what their product book states.

It's Sodium tetra borate pentahydrate

In application instructions it states: Use approximately 1lb. of Lo'n Slo for for every 2lbs. Optimizer Plus added.

Hope this helps.

[chem geek]

OK thanks. That would be consistent with the MSDS and other info I looked up, but is inconsistent with the labeling posted by 2n3055 that is silent on adding any acid. Maybe it's different in Canada, or this changed since 2005. It would be really good to get to the bottom of this. If 2n3055 did not find the pH rising upon addition of this product, then it sure sounds like boric acid to me so I suspect they may have changed their formula (at least for Canada).

[2n3055]

I can get 20 Mule Team and another pail of Optimizer, add a measured quantity of each product (that would result in the same amount of boric acid) to a fixed amount of pool water and measure any change in sodium chloride if this helps clear this up.

I figure tetraborate would increase the salt level more than boric acid.

The other way around I can add a fixed amount of each product to a fixed amount of pool water and measure which one yields more "borates".

I doubt BioGuard produces a different formulation for Canada, the market is just too small and the pool season just too short - not worth the expense. They probably changed their formulation to eliminate the need to add acid.

[chem geek]

I wouldn't try and tell the difference based on borates level since that's not a huge difference. One pound of product in 1,000 gallons gives the following: 13.6 ppm borates for 20 Mule Team Borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate), 17.8 ppm borates for sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, and 21.0 ppm borates for boric acid. However, the boric acid for this amount would lower the pH slightly from 7.5 to around 7.4 while the two tetraborate products would raise the pH to around 8.7. So I think it's far easier to add some product to water and measure the pH change. If the pH goes very high, then it's tetraborate. If it's stays roughly neutral, then it's boric acid.

I agree with you that it sounds like they changed the formulation to eliminate the need to add acid.

[2n3055]

Give me a few days, I'll update you with the results of my little experiment.

[waterbear]

I can get 20 Mule Team and another pail of Optimizer, add a measured quantity of each product (that would result in the same amount of boric acid) to a fixed amount of pool water and measure any change in sodium chloride if this helps clear this up.

I figure tetraborate would increase the salt level more than boric acid.

The other way around I can add a fixed amount of each product to a fixed amount of pool water and measure which one yields more "borates".

I doubt BioGuard produces a different formulation for Canada, the market is just too small and the pool season just too short - not worth the expense. They probably changed their formulation to eliminate the need to add acid.

IT would make better sense to use the Proteam Supreme and Supreme Plus since Supreme is the pentahydrate form and the plus is a mixture of the pentahydrate and boric acid to make it pH neutral AND both are still available.

Interestingly enough Chemtura (Bioguard) manufactures the trichlor for Proteam (Haviland) who did the initial research on borates in their St. Augustine test pools before being bought out by Haviland and did come to some sort of agreement with Bioguard (Chemtura) from what I have been able to discover. Not sure which product hit the market first but I do remember that Optimizer Plus was originally called Optimizer and not Optimizer Plus.

[2n3055]

True, early versions of Optimizer required the separate addition of acid.

[waterbear]

Just noticed something interesting on the MSDS that chem geek linked to above. It is dated 1998! I suspect that Chemtura changed the product name to optimizer plus before they changed the product formulation! I won't say why they might have done something like this but I do have some strong opinions!

Also, the PAN pesticide database entry is dated 1997 and that lists it as 100% sodium tetraborate pentahydrate.

Wonder if the current product is EPA registered?

The 1997 entry lists an EPA registraton number of 5185-461 but this is for sodium tetraborate pentahydrate 100% formulation and we all know that this is not the pH neutral formulaton!

It would not be the first time that an unregistered or mislabled product has been sold. Zodiac paid EPA fines in the late 90s over mislabled Nature 2 in the US.

[waterbear]

FWIW Here is the MSDS for Proteam Supreme Plus which is also pH neutral

http://www.poolspachemicals.com/files/SUPREMEPLUS.pdf

A mixture of borax and boric acid and fragrance.

[Magpie]

Junior Member: Did you ever do your experiment? I am wondering what you found out. I am really interested to find out if I can simply substitute borax for my Optimizer Plus (with extra mass to account for the extra water).

Give me a few days, I'll update you with the results of my little experiment.

[Magpie]

One more question: Can I use Lo and Slow instead of muriatic acid to lower the pH after adding borax?

[chem geek]

If you already have some then you can use it, but it's sodium bisulfate and will increase sulfates in the water. Muriatic acid just adds chorides and is usually less expensive as well so would be better to use. If the fuming is a problem for you, then get half-strength (15-16%) Muriatic acid at half-price.

[waterbear]

One more question: Can I use Lo and Slow instead of muriatic acid to lower the pH after adding borax?

Yes but it is more expensive and you will be adding a lot of sulfates to the water, which is not a good idea with a SWCG and can speed up corrosion in any pool. Lo N Slo is just Bioguard's brand of dry acid (sodium bisulfate). You are going to need over 3 lbs of dry acid for every (4.75 lb) of borax added as a rough estimate while if you use muriatic you will need only 36 oz. (slightly more than a quart) per box. The price difference is substantial since quite a lot of borax is needed to reach 50 ppm. In a 10 K pool you are talking about 7.75 boxes which will need either about 2 gallons and a pint of muriatic (usually less than 10-15 dollars) or about 22 lbs or so of dry acid (Low N slow sells for about $1.75/lb to $2/lb. depending on the size container you buy so you are talking about $40 to $45 for acid. Do the math and decide for yourself.