Chemistry Question - I'm Confused

[Dinoble1]

I have a Sundance spa with an ozinator. I've followed my dealer instructions but after reading through the Chemistry forum topics I'm fairly confused about whether I'm doing things properly.

Here's what I do. After filling I add MetalX, then adjust for TA and PH. I use chlorine tabs in the filter door and Robarb Sani Spa. My tests usually show no Bromine or Chlorine, but TA and PH are ok. I add a teaspoon of Sani Spa before use and this brings the Bromine and Chlorine levels in range. Next day same thing. Sani Spa label directions say to add before use if readings are not in range. My dealer says this is fine and not to be concerned that my levels drop as long as I have good readings before use.

Am I missing something?

[stomper4x4]

I run into the same thing and I'm sure many do with ozone. Here I have read that ozone well recharge the bromine but I don't see it happening. The ozone lowers the levels of bromine and clorine IMHO.

The ozone alone is not enough to complete sanatation so here is what I do.

First off my spaw gets use about 5-6 times a week by 1 or 2 people.

For my conditions of use I do just fine with sanation if I santatize with with bromine after each use. I only use 1.5 tp of the power type. Then once a week I do a superoxy. For that I use 6 tp.

My ozone runs 24-7.

Works for me YMMV.

[Dinoble1]

I run into the same thing and I'm sure many do with ozone. Here I have read that ozone well recharge the bromine but I don't see it happening. The ozone lowers the levels of bromine and clorine IMHO.

The ozone alone is not enough to complete sanatation so here is what I do.

First off my spaw gets use about 5-6 times a week by 1 or 2 people.

For my conditions of use I do just fine with sanation if I santatize with with bromine after each use. I only use 1.5 tp of the power type. Then once a week I do a superoxy. For that I use 6 tp.

My ozone runs 24-7.

Works for me YMMV.

What are you using for your bromine sanitizer?

[waterbear]

I have a Sundance spa with an ozinator. I've followed my dealer instructions but after reading through the Chemistry forum topics I'm fairly confused about whether I'm doing things properly.

Here's what I do. After filling I add MetalX, then adjust for TA and PH. I use chlorine tabs in the filter door and Robarb Sani Spa. My tests usually show no Bromine or Chlorine, but TA and PH are ok. I add a teaspoon of Sani Spa before use and this brings the Bromine and Chlorine levels in range. Next day same thing. Sani Spa label directions say to add before use if readings are not in range. My dealer says this is fine and not to be concerned that my levels drop as long as I have good readings before use.

Am I missing something?

A few questions....are you using a bromine system or a chorine system? Have you tested your fill water for metals? If there are no metals (copper or iron) in your fill water the MetalX is not necessary and is just an unneeded expense! What type of chlorine tabs are you using? Trichlor (tabs) is not usually recommended for use in spas, it is very acidic and slow dissolving. The Sani-spa is just dichlor, a ganular form of stabilized chlorine that is the most commen type of chlorine used in spas. . This means you have a chlorine spa and NOT a bromine spa so you should not be testing for bromine, only chlorine. Chlorine and ozone work together to snaitize the water well but ozone will destroy chlorine so your results are not uncommen. If your spa is exposed to sunlight that will also burn off the chlorine very fast until the stabilizer levels in the water reach about 20 ppm from the dichlor. (Both dichlor and trichlor are stabilized chlorine, that meant that in addition to chlorine they also add stabililizer--cyanuric acid-- to the water. Stabilizer protects chlorine from sunlight but too much decreases it's ability to sanitize) Also, do not depend on test strips, they just do not have the precision for water balancing although they are good for quick checks. Invest in a good drop based kit (I like the Tayor K-2006 for chlorine). You spent thousands on your spa, is about $60 really a lot to spend on a good test kit?

To sum things up,

you seem to have a chorine spa

ozone WILL lower your chlorine levels if it runs 24/7 but does santize the water while it is running so as long as your chlorine levels are ok before you go in you should be fine....adding a teaspoon for each 250 gallons of water should get you in the ballpark.

The use of trichlor tabs in a spa is usually not recommended becuase they are extremely acidic.

Sunligjht will burn off your chlorine in a matter of minutes until the stabilizer levels build up to about 20 ppm or higher....once they get above about 60 ppm then the santizing ability of your chlorine is compromised.

You should maintain your free chlorine levels at between 4-6 ppm, never let them drop below 2 ppm and you can go in the spa whenever they are below 10 ppm. Don't depend on test strips but invest in a GOOD drop based test kit. It will not only give you more precise reults but it will make your spa maintenance much easier in the long run!

Hoe this is helpful!

[waterbear]

I run into the same thing and I'm sure many do with ozone. Here I have read that ozone well recharge the bromine but I don't see it happening. The ozone lowers the levels of bromine and clorine IMHO.

If you add sodium bromide to create the 'bromine bank' of bromine ions in the water on filling the spa then add an oxidizer such as chlorine or MPS (potassium monopersulfate--non chlorine shock) it will then oxidize the bromine into hypobromous acid, the active sanitizer in the bromine system. The ozone will then continue to oxidize the bromine and help maintain a more constant bromine level then if you did not have the ozone. You still need to 'shock' the spa with an oxidizer on a regular basis to bring the bromine levels back up. If you add bromine tabs (which are a combination of bromine and chlorine or MPS in a methylhydantion base) in a floater in addition to this you will find that your bromine levels will stay even better. Be aware that bromine tabs by themselves will not maintain a bromine level until enough bromine ions are in the water and the sodium bromide on filling is still needed even with the tabs, as is the shocking with an oxidizer on a regular basis!

The ozone alone is not enough to complete sanatation so here is what I do.

This is correct! Ozone by itself is not a complete sanitizer.

First off my spaw gets use about 5-6 times a week by 1 or 2 people.

For my conditions of use I do just fine with sanation if I santatize with with bromine after each use. I only use 1.5 tp of the power type.

You did not specify a produt but it is most likey sodium bromide, which by itself is NOT a sanitizer. It needs to be oxidized by either ozone, chlorine, or MPS to form a sanitizer in the water.

Then once a week I do a superoxy. For that I use 6 tp.

Not familair with this product but it is most likely MPS.

My ozone runs 24-7.

This is what is converting the sodium bromide you are adding after each use to hypobromous acid

Works for me YMMV.

Hope this is helpful.

[stomper4x4]

"What are you using for your bromine sanitizer?"

SPaGuard - Brominating Concentrate to answer your question.

Breakdown:

sodiumdichloro-s-triazinetrione 82.5%

sodium bromide 14.7%

other 2.8%

total 100%

[waterbear]

"What are you using for your bromine sanitizer?"

SPaGuard - Brominating Concentrate to answer your question.

Breakdown:

sodiumdichloro-s-triazinetrione 82.5%

This is dichlor!

sodium bromide 14.7%

other 2.8%

total 100%

This is a combined product that has both sodium bromide and a form of chlorine in it to oxidize the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid.

[Dinoble1]

A few questions....are you using a bromine system or a chorine system? Have you tested your fill water for metals? If there are no metals (copper or iron) in your fill water the MetalX is not necessary and is just an unneeded expense! What type of chlorine tabs are you using? Trichlor (tabs) is not usually recommended for use in spas, it is very acidic and slow dissolving. The Sani-spa is just dichlor, a ganular form of stabilized chlorine that is the most commen type of chlorine used in spas. . This means you have a chlorine spa and NOT a bromine spa so you should not be testing for bromine, only chlorine.

My mistake in my original post. I'm using Brom Tabs (Bromochloro 5,5 dimethylhydantoin 98%) with Sani-Spa (Sodium Dichloro-s Triazinetrione Dihydrate).

[mader]

I thought that having an ozonator means you need less of a bromine level than without it. Is that true?

If so, do you need less tablets in the floater? Can you remove the floater permanently?

Thanks!

[waterbear]

I think a clarification of how a bromine system works might be in order. First a reserve of bromine ions needs to be established in the water ('bromine bank"). This is usually accomplished by adding sodium bromide on each fill of the spa. Then an oxidizer is added to convert the bromine ions into the active sanitizer, hypobromous acid. The most commen oxidizers used are chlorine (most commenly used are dichlor granules and liquid chlorine--sodium hypochlorite. Laundry bleach IS sodium hypchlorite, btw. Calcium hypochlorite is less commonly used but it's use is on the upswing since some manufacuters such as Arch Chemical have discontinued dichlor for spa use.), MPS (potassium monopersulfate or non chlorine shock), and ozone.

It is the amount of oxidizer added that determines the level of bromine sanitizer in the water. The more oxidizer the higher your bromine will read on testing since more of the bromine ions in the water will be converted into hypobromous acid. Ozone does not really allow you to run a lower bromine level but tends to provide a more constant level of bromine present.

Tabs will contain both the bromine and an oxidizer (usually chlorine but at least one product on the market has MPS intstead) but are very slow dissolving so they still need the bromine bank established before their use and still require the use of an oxidizer. Tt can literally take weeks to establish a bromine level that holds in the water if only tabs are used without first adding sodium bromide to the water! Their purpose is to help maintain a more constant bromine level by supplying a constant supply of bromine ions and oxidizer with less user intervention.

The use of sodium bromide and an oxidizer is usually referred to as a 2-step bromine system. The use of sodium bromide, oxizider, and tabs a 3-step bromine system. Some manufacturers will combine the sodium bromide and an oxidizer (often dichlor) into a one step powder but additional oxidizer or "shock" is still needed on a regular (usually weekly) basis.

ALL bromine systems benefit from shocking (oxidizing) on a regular basis to raise the bromine levels and to help burn off organics and destroy bromamines that form in the water. (Some sources say that bromamines are also effective santiizers but some research indicates that they are not as effective as previously thought).

Hope this helps.

[waterbear]

My mistake in my original post. I'm using Brom Tabs (Bromochloro 5,5 dimethylhydantoin 98%) with Sani-Spa (Sodium Dichloro-s Triazinetrione Dihydrate).

The tabs are very slow dissovling and will not put enough bromine ions into the water for literally weeks. Some people crush up a few tabs when the initially fill the spa but it is much easier just to add some sodium bromide on each fill. The dichlor is a chlorine shock. It is an effective oxidizer for a bromine system. If you have established a 'bromine reserved" in the water with sodium bromide then your ozone generator will oxidize that to hypobromous acid whenever it is running. If you are relying solely on the tabs to do this it can literally take weeks before there are enough bromine ions in the water and you are really running a chlorine system until that happens. Ozone does tend to destroy chlorine. The net effect of your ozone generator, once you have established a bromine reserve in the water, is that your use of dichlor will be much less to maintain proper bromine levels. You should not even be looking at the chlorine levels on your test kit when you test since any chlorine you put in the spa is converted immediately to the bromine santizer, btw.

[mader]

Ahh, so the 2/3 step system eliminates the need for a weekly non-chlorine shock that is required with the one step tablets?

My tablets are the one step. And I non-chlorine shock once a week. (PH, Alk, aside)

So how would my water care routine change with the addition of the ozonator?

[Dinoble1]

I think a clarification of how a bromine system works might be in order. First a reserve of bromine ions needs to be established in the water ('bromine bank"). This is usually accomplished by adding sodium bromide on each fill of the spa.

How best to establish ther bromine reserve? Crush a few tabs as another poster noted or is there a specific product for this?

[waterbear]

Ahh, so the 2/3 step system eliminates the need for a weekly non-chlorine shock that is required with the one step tablets?

NO

My tablets are the one step. And I non-chlorine shock once a week. (PH, Alk, aside)

No such thing! You need to establish a bromine bank in the water with sodium bromide (step 1), you need to oxidize the bromine ions to hypobromous acid usually weekly with either clorine or MPS (step 2), you can use bromine tablets in a floater to help maintain a more constant bromine level (step 3--optional)

So how would my water care routine change with the addition of the ozonator?

It can reduce the need for using tablets, it will help maintain a more constant bromine level, it can reduce the need to 'shock'. The biggest plus is the second one....the water will always have active santiizer and will be ready to go into.

[waterbear]

How best to establish ther bromine reserve? Crush a few tabs as another poster noted or is there a specific product for this?

Crushing a few tabs is one way but most people add sodium bromide to the water on each refill. HTH sells it under the name "Brom-Start", Robarb sell it as a liquid (Bromaspa Liquid) and a powder (Bromine Energizer), LeisureTime sells it as a powder(Sodium Bromide). There are others. It is usuually added in the amount of 1 oz of the powder per 200 gal creating a 30 ppm bromide reserve in the water.

[mader]

Ahh, so the 2/3 step system eliminates the need for a weekly non-chlorine shock that is required with the one step tablets?

NO

My tablets are the one step. And I non-chlorine shock once a week. (PH, Alk, aside)

No such thing! You need to establish a bromine bank in the water with sodium bromide (step 1), you need to oxidize the bromine ions to hypobromous acid usually weekly with either clorine or MPS (step 2), you can use bromine tablets in a floater to help maintain a more constant bromine level (step 3--optional)

What are you talking about bear? After you add the reserve at fill, i put the bromine tablets in the foater, drop it in the tub, and each week, I shock with a non-chlorine shock (MPS).

[waterbear]

Yes, that is a 3-step bromine system. Their might be some variances among different manufacturer's products but in essence that is how bromine works. You need a bromine reserve in the water on filling, you need an oxidizer to convert the bromide ions into active sanitizer, and you should shock the tub weekly to raise the active sanitizer level high and burn off organics in the water. If you are using ozone you still need to shock because much of the ozone will get used up oxidizng the bromide into hypobromous acid on a constant basis while the ozone is running. Whether you shock with chlorine or MPS is your choice, one is not any better than the other. Liquid chlorine will have less impact on pH than MPS and will not put sufates into the water. (Liquid chlorine is the same as laundry bleach, btw.) There really is no reason to use a stabilized chlorine (dichlor) to shock a bromine system. One cup of regular (5.25%) or 3/4 cup of ultra (6%) bleach is an effective shock per 250 gallons. If you have any fears that the chlorine will be in the water it is immedately converted into bromine sanitizer when there is a reserve of bromide ions in the water. (If you nave not established the bromine reserve then you will have a chlorine system when you shock, if you shock with MPS you will just have unstanized water)

Tabs by themselves will not keep the water sanitized until enough of them have dissoved to generate the bromide reserve in the water. They are very slow dissolving and ti can leterally take weeks after a fresh fill before you get bromine levels that will hold. Also be aware that the majority of tabs also contain chlorine to oxidize the bromine into hypobromous acid. I know of one on the market that contains MPS instead of chlorine but personally see no benefit to this type of product other than marketing hype ("Chlorine is bad, use bromine, we have the only bromine tablet with NO chlorine, etc.")

[toby]

The hypobromous acid level seems to drop rapidly over a day. Is this normal?

I am using SPaGuard - Brominating Concentrate Formulae in a 835 litre / 220 US Gal Spa.

(Assuming the DPD test/test strip reads the hypobromous acid level (sanitiser) and not Bromine level.)

The hypobromous acid level dropped over 30 hours from HOBr 5 to close to 0. The Ph was 7.6 and Alkalinity 150. There were 2 uses in that time (2 people for 1 hour). My Spa is not fitted with an ozinator.

Looking at the Forum I think the system I am using is closest to the 2 step system.

I am concerned I am unwittingly creating a Bromine bank. When I shocked the Spa with "Spaguard Enhanced Spa Shock" Formulae The chlorine and hypobromous acid level went off the scale. I did put a whole sachet in which was designed for a 1000L not 835L Spa.