Taylor

[Dano]

Hello

I will be trying Taylors new test strips in my spa next week, they are supposed to be compariable to the drop test kits they have for the accuracy.

looking forward to the results.

[chem geek]

I don't know why you say they are as accurate. Are you talking about the Taylor K-1300 sureTrack-4? If so, notice that the Total Alkalinity (TA) is in increments of 40 ppm compared to 10 ppm for the drop test, the chlorine test is 0,1,2,3,5,10 compared to an accuracy of 0.5 ppm with a 10 ml sample and 0.2 ppm with a 25 ml sample with the drop test, and the pH is in spacings of 0.3 or 0.4 compared to 0.2 for the Taylor K-2006 drop test. Also note that the K-2006 drop test also tests for Combined Chlorine (CC), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA).

Is there some other Taylor test strip test you are looking at that is different than what I described above?

[Dano]

I don't know why you say they are as accurate. Are you talking about the Taylor K-1300 sureTrack-4? If so, notice that the Total Alkalinity (TA) is in increments of 40 ppm compared to 10 ppm for the drop test, the chlorine test is 0,1,2,3,5,10 compared to an accuracy of 0.5 ppm with a 10 ml sample and 0.2 ppm with a 25 ml sample with the drop test, and the pH is in spacings of 0.3 or 0.4 compared to 0.2 for the Taylor K-2006 drop test. Also note that the K-2006 drop test also tests for Combined Chlorine (CC), Calcium Hardness (CH) and Cyanuric Acid (CYA).

Is there some other Taylor test strip test you are looking at that is different than what I described above?

No you are right Chem Geek, I should have looked into it more, I have read some of your posts you sure know your stuff I am a newbie thats for sure, I would love to have some of your feedback, I have a arctic summit 1880 litres with Onzen, I just had my water checked, I am running the Bromine in it, salt level is 8.0 the readings are 4.5 Bromine T.A is 110 P.H is 8.2 and C.H 170, I filled my tub 7 weeks ago. I put a cap of Arctic refresh in it last night and a cap of full of P.H down, it seems like the P.H always climbs up, I will be going in it tonight, I really don't add anything else to the tub, just refresh once a week usally 1 cap, Please your feedback would be appreciated, should I be adding anything else to keep my tub in good shape. I also used aquafinesse once a week for the first month, but stopped as it is very expensive, and I realy dont know what it does.

Thanks again

[chem geek]

I don't understand the salt level of 8.0. Did you mean 800 or 8000? As for your rising pH, this is at least partly due to the higher TA that you have so I would just add acid not only to lower the pH, but to lower the TA over time. Do not add anything that would raise the TA, such as Alkalinity Up (or baking soda) or pH Up (or washing soda). As the TA drops over time, the pH should get more stable, especially as the TA gets below 80 ppm.

I am unclear as to the bromine system you are using. According to this web page on the Onzen system, it sounds like a saltwater sanitizer generator, but it is not clear to me as to whether this is generating chlorine or bromine. It depends on the type of salt they have you add. The Onzen manual says it combines an ozone system with electrolysis using a salt blend from Dead Sea salt, so I presume that is mostly sodium chloride and therefore mostly chlorine that is generated, not bromine (though the manual says that small amounts of either may be generated as they offer two kinds of salt blend). So did you use a sodium bromide salt blend?

With both ozone and either chlorine or bromine, you shouldn't be needing to add very much to your spa at all if you have the system generating enough to maintain a sanitizer level. If you have temporary higher bather loads, you could add a supplemental oxidizer such as non-chlorine shock (MPS) after a soak, but if your soaks are fairly regular then that may not be necessary.

By the way, the least expensive online source for the Taylor K-2006 kit is here.

[Dano]

I don't understand the salt level of 8.0. Did you mean 800 or 8000? As for your rising pH, this is at least partly due to the higher TA that you have so I would just add acid not only to lower the pH, but to lower the TA over time. Do not add anything that would raise the TA, such as Alkalinity Up (or baking soda) or pH Up (or washing soda). As the TA drops over time, the pH should get more stable, especially as the TA gets below 80 ppm.

I am unclear as to the bromine system you are using. According to this web page on the Onzen system, it sounds like a saltwater sanitizer generator, but it is not clear to me as to whether this is generating chlorine or bromine. It depends on the type of salt they have you add. The Onzen manual says it combines an ozone system with electrolysis using a salt blend from Dead Sea salt, so I presume that is mostly sodium chloride and therefore mostly chlorine that is generated, not bromine (though the manual says that small amounts of either may be generated as they offer two kinds of salt blend). So did you use a sodium bromide salt blend?

With both ozone and either chlorine or bromine, you shouldn't be needing to add very much to your spa at all if you have the system generating enough to maintain a sanitizer level. If you have temporary higher bather loads, you could add a supplemental oxidizer such as non-chlorine shock (MPS) after a soak, but if your soaks are fairly regular then that may not be necessary.

By the way, the least expensive online source for the Taylor K-2006 kit is here.

Thanks you very much for the help, Yes It is a sodium bromide salt blend and the reading is from a HACH Aquacheck strips which reads 8.0 = 2339 ppm (9mg/L) The system has a setting 1 to 6 which will produce the Bromine at a 4 HR interval, 1 = 4hrs, 2=8hrs, up to 6=24Hrs, something I don't get is why some people will try to keep the total alk on the high side, then try to bring the ph down?? it seems like it is a constant battle, I had my water checked by a pool mfg today and they said raise the alk then use adjust down for the ph>

Thanks again

[chem geek]

something I don't get is why some people will try to keep the total alk on the high side, then try to bring the ph down?? it seems like it is a constant battle, I had my water checked by a pool mfg today and they said raise the alk then use adjust down for the ph

This is a common problem in the pool and spa industry because many of these people don't understand that higher TA is not only a pH buffer which would normally lead to greater pH stability, but it is also a SOURCE of rising pH itself (due to carbon dioxide outgassing) and this latter effect outweighs the former at higher TA levels. The only time a higher TA is really needed is when using acidic sources of sanitizer, such as Trichlor in pools or even Dichlor in spas (since chlorine consumption/usage is acidic). When using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, the TA should be much lower in order to have pH stability and in spas where aeration jets are common, having another pH buffer such as 50 ppm Borates helps as this buffer is not a source of rising pH.

[Fry Man]

something I don't get is why some people will try to keep the total alk on the high side, then try to bring the ph down?? it seems like it is a constant battle, I had my water checked by a pool mfg today and they said raise the alk then use adjust down for the ph

This is a common problem in the pool and spa industry because many of these people don't understand that higher TA is not only a pH buffer which would normally lead to greater pH stability, but it is also a SOURCE of rising pH itself (due to carbon dioxide outgassing) and this latter effect outweighs the former at higher TA levels. The only time a higher TA is really needed is when using acidic sources of sanitizer, such as Trichlor in pools or even Dichlor in spas (since chlorine consumption/usage is acidic). When using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, the TA should be much lower in order to have pH stability and in spas where aeration jets are common, having another pH buffer such as 50 ppm Borates helps as this buffer is not a source of rising pH.

I have the Onzen system and I have been having a problem with determining the actual salt concentration in the tub. Using the corrected operating volume of the tub I have been using the pool calculator to determine the salt levels. When I use the test strips the readings do not agree at all. below is my salt concentration and the test method:

Pool calculator plus adjustments for Dichlor 1799 ppm salt

Aqua Chek Hack Bromine 3386 ppm

Aqua Chek white salt strips 2490 ppm

Genisis Bromine 3835 ppm

I have been told the Bromine strips will measure the salt correctly. The above results were taken on a new refill and do not include too much contamination from other chemicals.

I have the following other parameters:

TA 80

CH 230

PH 7.4-7.4

CYA 34

Borates 50 calculated by pool calculator

I adjusted the CYA with Dichlor and now will have only the onzen for sanitizer. The ph is quite stable and drifts up slowely and only Dry acid or muratic acid is used to lower the PH. Each time this is added it fine tunes the TA down slightly and it will probably settle out near 70. The Onzen produces lots of Chlorine and just needs to be tuned for load.

Dano your pool volume may be off, quite a bit, if you are using the printed manual. Artic can supply the correct operating volume to help you get better accuracy from the pool calculator.

The question is do I just rely on the calculated salt concentration because the strips appear to be not very accurate?

[chem geek]

I'm not sure I understand how you used The Pool Calculator to figure out your salt level. I can see how you can figure out the increase in salt from chlorine sources, such as Dichlor, but The Pool Calculator can't tell you how much initial salt you added to the water. There will also be some initial salt in the fill water, but that is a fairly low amount. How did you figure out the amount of salt you added? The weight of the salt into the volume of water, converted into milligrams per liter (which is ppm)?

Test strips for salt can sometimes be wrong. The Onzen unit is probably measuring conductivity and figuring an implied salt level, though conductivity is temperature dependent and I don't know how much the unit adjusts for that.

In my own pool (which isn't an SWG pool so it's just for my curiosity) I use the Taylor K-1766 drop-based test and I use a 25 ml sample where each drop is 80 ppm since my salt levels aren't that high (you normally use a 10 ml sample where each drop is 200 ppm).

[Fry Man]

I'm not sure I understand how you used The Pool Calculator to figure out your salt level. I can see how you can figure out the increase in salt from chlorine sources, such as Dichlor, but The Pool Calculator can't tell you how much initial salt you added to the water. There will also be some initial salt in the fill water, but that is a fairly low amount. How did you figure out the amount of salt you added? The weight of the salt into the volume of water, converted into milligrams per liter (which is ppm)?

Test strips for salt can sometimes be wrong. The Onzen unit is probably measuring conductivity and figuring an implied salt level, though conductivity is temperature dependent and I don't know how much the unit adjusts for that.

In my own pool (which isn't an SWG pool so it's just for my curiosity) I use the Taylor K-1766 drop-based test and I use a 25 ml sample where each drop is 80 ppm since my salt levels aren't that high (you normally use a 10 ml sample where each drop is 200 ppm).

I am sorry about the salt calculation. I did this calculation in my spread sheet using the following formula:

Salt ppm =Total salt gms/(working volume in Litres*1000)*1,000,000

The quantities are:

Salt 2,000 gms

working volume 1131 L

Calculated result = 1768 ppm

Addition of salt from pool calculator for adding Dichlor to get 34 ppm CYA=31 ppm

Total salt calculated = 1799

I used one of the Aqua Chek Bromine salt strip to measure the initial water and as expected it was very low at 164 ppm. This value is not factored into any of the calculations above.

Artic recommends 2000 to 3000 ppm for the Onzen system. The system is doing fine on the current concentration and I wanted to determine the correct salt levels before making any more adjustments. I have seen several higher levels recommended for SWG systems in the posts on this forum. Before changing out my last water the salt was 2,240 gms salt and 32 ppm from Dichlor for a total of2013. For this level of salt the strips showed 3386 and 3835.

The Aqua Chek white strip seem to be the most accurate of the three test strips I have. Can I use this as a reference knowing the error and continue to do the calculation? The only problem is splash out which will cause dilution over time. so my calculation will also have a greater error as time goes on. I use the Taylor 2006 drop test kit for all other measurements.

Should I get the Taylor K-1766 drop test kit and forget the test strips or continue with the calculation?

[chem geek]

The AquaChek White is the best of the salt test strips, but some (on another forum) have reported inconsistencies reading too high even with that test. It does look like you did your calculations correctly. There is also a small amount of conductivity from what is effectively calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate (paired to these for calculation) that is separate from the chloride. So if the total hardness were initially high while the chloride was relatively low, then that would be added and would be measured by the SWG cells as it just looks like conductivity.

As for whether to get the Taylor test, that's up to you. It may give you a more accurate reading. Note that the silver nitrate reagent used in the test can blacken fingers with a stain that is virtually impossible to remove (though eventually fades as skin eventually gets replaced) so be careful. Note that while the Taylor test is measuring chloride, it reports such measurement as ppm sodium chloride (salt) as is the convention so should be consistent with your calculated result which uses the weight of actual sodium chloride salt.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Pool calculator plus adjustments for Dichlor 1799 ppm salt

Aqua Chek Hack Bromine 3386 ppm

Aqua Chek white salt strips 2490 ppm

Genisis Bromine 3835 ppm

I have been told the Bromine strips will measure the salt correctly. The above results were taken on a new refill and do not include too much contamination from other chemicals.

I think that Genesis calculates in ppm of bromide ions. Genesis uses 2,000 ppm bromide ion concentration. They don't count the sodium part.

add one 2 lb bottle of TRU BLU sodium bromide per 100 US gallons

The required amount of Sodium Bromide in your water is 1,900 -2,100 ppm. - Genesis Owner's manual

2 pounds of sodium bromide will give a bromide ion concentration of 1860 ppm and a sodium bromide concentration of 2397 ppm.

If they wanted 2,000-ppm sodium bromide, then the correct amount would be 1.67 pounds per 100 gallons

Therefore, my conclusion is that they are using bromide ion concentration even though they refer to it as sodium bromide. I am not sure if their test strips report levels as ppm bromide or ppm sodium bromide.

Most salt systems calculate in ppm of sodium chloride. Bromide is 79.9 grams per mole and sodium chloride is 58.44 grams per mole. You have to divide the Genesis result by 1.367 (assumes concentration is reported as ppm bromide) to get the result in ppm sodium chloride.

The Onzen uses 2000 to 2175 ppm of sodium chloride or sodium bromide on start-up. Sodium bromide is 102.894 g/mole, Sodium chloride is 58.443 g/mole.

The strips can only determine the number of moles. They multiply the number of moles by the number of grams per mole to determine the ppm.

You have to divide the result of the sodium bromide test strip by 1.76 to get the correct sodium chloride concentration.

The Taylor K-1766 will give you the most accurate measurement.

The Taylor K-1766 can also be used to measure bromide levels for units using sodium bromide. You have to multiply the result by 1.76 if the manufacturer uses ppm sodium bromide or 1.367 if the manufacturer uses ppm bromide ions.

3386/1.367 = 2477 ppm

3386/1.761 = 1924 ppm

3835/1.367 = 2805 ppm

3835/1.761 = 2178 ppm

I think the fact that the sodium bromide test strips are giving such different numbers indicates that they are either very inaccurate or they use a different reporting convention. One might report in ppm bromide and the other might report in ppm sodium bromide. You would have to contact the strip maker to be sure.

I think that the Aqua Chek white salt strips reading of 2490 ppm is probably the most accurate. I would get the drop test kit just to be sure.

[Fry Man]

The AquaChek White is the best of the salt test strips, but some (on another forum) have reported inconsistencies reading too high even with that test. It does look like you did your calculations correctly. There is also a small amount of conductivity from what is effectively calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate (paired to these for calculation) that is separate from the chloride. So if the total hardness were initially high while the chloride was relatively low, then that would be added and would be measured by the SWG cells as it just looks like conductivity.

As for whether to get the Taylor test, that's up to you. It may give you a more accurate reading. Note that the silver nitrate reagent used in the test can blacken fingers with a stain that is virtually impossible to remove (though eventually fades as skin eventually gets replaced) so be careful. Note that while the Taylor test is measuring chloride, it reports such measurement as ppm sodium chloride (salt) as is the convention so should be consistent with your calculated result which uses the weight of actual sodium chloride salt.

Thanks for your comments. Since a salt test is not required very often I will add the salt by calculation on a new fill and then record the result with the AquaChek White test strip. The test strips are repettive and can be used to monitor the splash out for the remainder of the fill cycle and I can add salt to keep the level up based on the strips and the calculation for the amount.