Peroxysan - White Floaters After Refill

[bart6453]

I can't sell my wife on using bleach in the tub as our 'main' chemical.

Go to the pool store and buy "liquid chlorine". You can tell her that it's made specifically for water treatment.

Or....you could ask her just how much research she's done on the topic--how many books, articles, posts has she read. When she looks sheepish and answers "none", tell her that until she does, you're the resident expert and she can fly a kite.

Worked for me. Now she leaves the spa maintenance to me, enjoys the money we're saving on chemicals, and has a great time using the tub. No fuss, no muss.

+1....just didnt want to say it

[cramp11]

After doing our own research, we're sticking with Peroxide. I never said that I was going to switch. I just wanted to research my options. I like keeping an open mind and not be bullied into making a choice.

My reason for this post was about killing the stuff and saving the water. That wasn't an option. So the decomtamition reading began.

Looks great, but the method we chose was Sani-Cleen (23% peroxide and 4.3% Peroxyacetic acid)

It's doing it's thing right now.

Thanks,

Cramp

[Vince22]

After doing our own research, we're sticking with Peroxide. I never said that I was going to switch. I just wanted to research my options. I like keeping an open mind and not be bullied into making a choice.

My reason for this post was about killing the stuff and saving the water. That wasn't an option. So the decomtamition reading began.

Looks great, but the method we chose was Sani-Cleen (23% peroxide and 4.3% Peroxyacetic acid)

It's doing it's thing right now.

Thanks,

Cramp

I honestly don't think anyone means to bully you into anything. You have a spa with a mold problem, and the people giving you advice don't. Also, they don't stand to make any money off you. I'd say that adds just a touch more objectivity than your spa dealer n'est pas?

[bart6453]

After doing our own research, we're sticking with Peroxide. I never said that I was going to switch. I just wanted to research my options. I like keeping an open mind and not be bullied into making a choice.

My reason for this post was about killing the stuff and saving the water. That wasn't an option. So the decomtamition reading began.

Looks great, but the method we chose was Sani-Cleen (23% peroxide and 4.3% Peroxyacetic acid)

It's doing it's thing right now.

Thanks,

Cramp

Good luck, I hope it all works out well.

Didn't mean to bully you....just wanted to share how strongly I feel about peroxide.

[Nitro]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him maintain it.

Cramp just keep us posted. Good luck.

[cramp11]

No worries and no hard feelings. Who knows... in a month I may be posting that it's back, but I'm going to go in positive and hope for the best. I have so much peroxide and peroxysan right now since they gave me another 8L on top of what I had already. Cost is nothing. Time, frustration, etc... I'll chalk it up as life experience. Sometimes you have to fail before you can succed.

It's cold this morning and I was out scrubbing the cover with a soft brush. The water keeps freezing. I think I'll wait until the sun comes around the house and it again this afternoon. I can't see how the heck anyone could change water in the winter no matter what chemical is used. Yikes!

Anywho... after hockey, I empty the tub, wipe it down, fill it up to rinse, empty again and then fill 'er up for use. Fingers crossed.

It was def amazing to watch this chemical do its thing. When we poured it in, the fluffy stuff instantly went into a ball, turned really white and floated to the top.

The only good thing about all of this... having no tub made me use the sauna for the first time since we got the tub. I missed it.

[hottubdan]

No worries and no hard feelings. Who knows... in a month I may be posting that it's back, but I'm going to go in positive and hope for the best. I have so much peroxide and peroxysan right now since they gave me another 8L on top of what I had already. Cost is nothing. Time, frustration, etc... I'll chalk it up as life experience. Sometimes you have to fail before you can succed.

It's cold this morning and I was out scrubbing the cover with a soft brush. The water keeps freezing. I think I'll wait until the sun comes around the house and it again this afternoon. I can't see how the heck anyone could change water in the winter no matter what chemical is used. Yikes!

Anywho... after hockey, I empty the tub, wipe it down, fill it up to rinse, empty again and then fill 'er up for use. Fingers crossed.

It was def amazing to watch this chemical do its thing. When we poured it in, the fluffy stuff instantly went into a ball, turned really white and floated to the top.

The only good thing about all of this... having no tub made me use the sauna for the first time since we got the tub. I missed it.

I suggest you switch to a sanitizing system. Even the Peroxysan site does not claim their product sanitizes the hot tub. That is why you have the mold. That is why it will return.

Enjoy your sauna.

[cramp11]

Thanks Dan... I am enjoying the sauna. Def a hell of lot easier/

It's been a week and we think we noticed a few things floating around the first day after their remedy. Thought maybe it was dead crap floating around... we just went with it. We had 3 ppl in the tub all week. (me twice, my wife once)

I changed the filter after the first week and this is floating around in the 2:1 mix of Peroxysan and water the filter was soaking in AFTER a blasted rinse.

I'm pretty sure this stuff is not dead.

So Peroxide/Peroxyacetic didn't kill this stuff and chlorine didn't kill this stuff... jolly...

[quantumchromodynamics]

So Peroxide/Peroxyacetic didn't kill this stuff and chlorine didn't kill this stuff... jolly...

All of the chlorine that you used was reduced (neutralized) by the high levels of peroxide. Therefore, you never really did shock the tub with chlorine.

[chem geek]

Cramp,

QCD is referring to the following in your earlier procedure shocking with chlorine:

After a month of trying to fight it (and a whole lot of Peroxysan) we decided to drain the tub. Before we did, we bought a chlorine shock and spiked the ppm to ???. (strip only goes to 10 ppm and it was very black)

Chlorine and hydrogen peroxide are not compatible (chlorine will get used up oxidizing hydrogen peroxide to oxygen), so the tub was, in effect, never really shocked with chlorine. Had you drained it first and then shocked with high levels of chlorine, that would have been different.

With a new tub, it may be a good idea to use a product such as Spa System Flush. Though a decontamination with high levels of chlorine usually works, a new tub can be in pretty bad shape due to leftover chemicals from manufacturing and from biofilms formed after the wet test since the spa is not dried out after a wet test.

[cramp11]

"you would need about 2.08 ppm of chlorine per 1 ppm of hydrogen peroxide to end up with a zero balance for each" was in another thread.

I bought a 1Kg bottle of Aquaruis Shock 2. Superchlorinate a 10,000L pool with 150g. I didn't weigh what I used, but the bottle is almost half gone so 400g to 500g was used. My tub is 1100L. Whatever peroxide was in the tub should have been neutralized with plenty of chlorine left. I added it in two stages. The initial pour foamed and made a gas (which was expected). When I added more, nothing happened.

If the chlorine level was zero, why did the test strip go really dark instead of just staying white like it does when I just have peroxide in the tub? I'm not trying to start an argument... I'm just trying to understand why this stuff won't die.

My wife is sending the pics to the company today to ask what to do now.

We used the tub last night and didn't see anything in the tub.

Edit : Here's a video...

(Please don't comment on youtube since we're sending this to the company)

[quantumchromodynamics]

You said

Our h2o2 ppm is about 400 right now.

and

My peroxide levels are at about 200 ppm right now.

You would need 832 ppm or 416 ppm of chlorine to neutralize the H2O2.

If the Aquarius 2 shock is dichlor, then the chlorine level would have only gone to 252 ppm.

Also, the cyanuric acid level would have gone to 230 ppm, which would have reduced the effectiveness of the chlorine.

If it is lithium hypochlorite, then the chlorine level would have only gone to 160 ppm.

What is the actual chemical in the Aquarius 2 shock?

[cramp11]

I just read through my recordings. My 400ppm level was after we emptied the tub and instantly saw white stuff in the tub. They had us dump tons of peroxysan in. Didn't do jack.

My levels were probably 200ppm when I tried the chlorine so I guess the chlorine didn't do anything except neutralize everything and make some lovely gas. Oops.

The active ingredient : Calcium hydrochlorite ... 65%.

So my wife got some feedback today... "The stuff floating around is dead. If it were alive, it would cling to things." He also said to get new filters so we don't recontaminate the tub. (the filters were soaking in the solution they gave us overnight) A bit of a contradiction. It's all dead, but get a new filter because it's not dead. When we poured that solution in they gave us, the stuff went into a ball, turned white and floated right to the top. Not fluffy, semi-transparent kleenax looking things.

Thought some of you might have found that funny.

Anywho... I put 15 cups of 35% peroxide in the tub the other day. I couldn't even get an accurate reading on the strip. Bubbles everywhere in the tub. We'll use it again once it's down to 200ppm again. At this rate, I'll be out of peroxide soon.

On a good note... snow last night. no wind... wicked hot tub experience. (since I'm a noob)

[quantumchromodynamics]

15 cups is 3549 milliliters. 278 milliliters = 100 ppm. Your level of H2O2 = 1,276 ppm.

Chlorine can keep a tub sanitized at 1 ppm. Hydrogen peroxide can't do it at 400 ppm. Case closed.

[cramp11]

15 cups is 3549 milliliters. 278 milliliters = 100 ppm. Your level of H2O2 = 1,276 ppm.

So jumping in the tub at 1276ppm probably wouldn't have felt good eh?

How did you come up with 278 ml = 100ppm? Is this based on my tub being 1100L? My wife and I have the debate about pouring in 1/4 cup per day vs 1 cup every 4 days. I personally don't see a difference, but 'they' want us to just add it every 4 days. Your thoughts?

After 2 refills, I'm still wishing we used a spa flush. Seems to be the smart thing to do no matter what chemical you use.

Just got out of the tub. I'll let you know how hockey goes later. I'm ready for a nap.

[Nitro]

Cramp, you do realize without a properly sanitized tub you risk serious infection to you and your family, not just white floaters. To me you sound like you're just playing games with your hot tub water, and aren't too concerned about it. I seriously recommend you start to follow the advice from the experts on this board, before you (or someone you love) gets seriously hurt.

[bart6453]

Cramp, you do realize without a properly sanitized tub you risk serious infection to you and your family, not just white floaters. To me you sound like you're just playing games with your hot tub water, and aren't too concerned about it. I seriously recommend you start to follow the advice from the experts on this board, before you (or someone you love) gets seriously hurt.

Unfortunately, I don't think Cramp wants any help.

Cramp, why don't you just give up on the non-EPA certified sanitation methods?

Seriously...this is not a rhetorical question...why?

Since past history is clearly the best indication of future performance....one would assume that peroxide is not going to work by your experience.

Give good old chlorine a try....and if you are still using the wife excuse as a crutch there can be only one answer to that. A. you are a wiener and can't talk good sense into your wife. or B. you are wiener and can't come clean that you really just want to use peroxide since you are a contrarian.

Good luck...see you in the ICU!

[quantumchromodynamics]

How did you come up with 278 ml = 100ppm? Is this based on my tub being 1100L?

1,000 liters of water has a mass of 1 million grams.

1 gram of (any chemical) in 1,000 liters of water = 1 part per million.

35 % hydrogen peroxide has a density of 1,130 grams per liter.

1,130 grams (.35) = 395.5 grams of hydrogen peroxide per liter.

253 milliliters of 35 % hydrogen peroxide contains 100 grams of hydrogen peroxide.

253 milliliters of 35 % hydrogen peroxide added to 1,000 liters of water = 100 ppm.

253 (1.1) = 278.

[chem geek]

Cramp,

If the wife is opposed to bleach, but not to chlorine, then use pool products with lithium hypochlorite (such as BioGuard Burn Out 35). It's a dry powder, but it is over 5 times as expensive as bleach. If you or your wife are opposed to any halogen product, so don't want either chlorine or bromine, then consider using Nature2 with MPS (a non-chlorine shock). The last EPA-approved alternative would be Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB, but this can also lead to white water mold after some time (usually a year or two) though this can be alleviated by using a Spa System Flush or heavy decontamination between every few refills.

Richard

[cramp11]

Unfortunately, I don't think Cramp wants any help.

Cramp, why don't you just give up on the non-EPA certified sanitation methods?

Seriously...this is not a rhetorical question...why?

Since past history is clearly the best indication of future performance....one would assume that peroxide is not going to work by your experience.

Give good old chlorine a try....and if you are still using the wife excuse as a crutch there can be only one answer to that. A. you are a wiener and can't talk good sense into your wife. or B. you are wiener and can't come clean that you really just want to use peroxide since you are a contrarian.

Good luck...see you in the ICU!

I believe that some people asked me to keep them up to date on my tub. I'm sharing it and am asking questions about the product I'm using.

I'm sure in the world people are using peroxide and/or peroxysan. Maybe they don't come on to boards like this for the obvious reason that no matter what, it gets bashed.

Why can't you accept that fact that I'm using Peroxysan until I choose to go a different route? Seriously... why? Let it go already. You don't need to call me a weiner or say that I can't talk sense into my wife. This isn't her decision... it's our decision.

My wife likes roses if you decide to visit the ICU. If it's me... bring beer.

-------------

quantumchromodynamics, excellent info. Thank you very much. I think I've been a little too aggressive with it. Yikes. Peroxysan is only 27%. I can do the math for it.

chem geek, Nature2 with MPS was something else we were reading about. I'm not what the MPS is, but a hockey buddy of mine uses Nature2 with chlorine in his pool. He seems to like it. Something we'll be considering down the road for sure.

[bart6453]

One thing about that white mold that we have not really touched on....and as a course of order......Just because it is in there does not mean it is alive.

You may want to do a culture to see if it really is alive.

It will not just disappear once you have a proper sanitation process in place.

To do a quick and dirty check, take a couple of mason jars and mix up some unflavored gelatin in them. I usually add about 1/3rd less water than the instructions when doing a culture. If you want to be super scientific, make sure to boil your jars and lids before you pour the gelatin in them...also boil the water for 10 minutes before mixing with the gelatin. Pour it in and put the lid on it as fast as possible. Then throw them in your refrigerator on their sides for an hour or so until set.

Next go out to your tub and grab some of the white mold....I would use a steel spoon that had been boiled with the water. Do it quick and throw a few of the fibrous hunks on the gelatin.

You really should do three...put mold samples on one, a water sample on one(use a cotton swab to apply water), and leave one unopened.

put them on your counter, preferably near some type of heat source...light bulb, on top of the refrigerator...etc.

In a day you should see some activity. If you unopened one is becoming active, your test is shot as you have a negative control becoming positive. You could do a control positive by having a 4th jar that you swab some foot cheese from between your toes(pretty much a guarantee of bacteria), and if that does not show any activity along with your 3 others...you have a positive control being negative, and again, your test is shot.

This is a super handy technique for lots of things.....and basically how they do it in laboratory procedures.

This is what I would do.......Not trying to be a jerk on here, but I think somewhere in the translation you have stopped actually trying to fix your hot tub issue.

[chem geek]

chem geek, Nature2 with MPS was something else we were reading about. I'm not what the MPS is, but a hockey buddy of mine uses Nature2 with chlorine in his pool. He seems to like it. Something we'll be considering down the road for sure.

MPS is potassium monopersulfate which is the primary oxidizing component in non-chlorine shock (such as SpaGuard Spa Shock, GLB Rendevous Activate, Leisure Time Renew, Robarb Spa Shok). When combined with Nature2 and hot spa temperatures (100-104F), it becomes effective enough to be a sanitizer. That combination of Nature2 with MPS at hot spa temps was approved by the EPA as a disinfectant (i.e. it passes EPA DIS/TSS-12 that is used for both pools and spas).

As for people using hydrogen peroxide, there certainly are some, just as there are some who have used Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB. However, if you look at pool forums, you will find entire sections with hundreds of people with bad experiences with Baqua in their pools and with no easy way to maintain the pools properly over the long-term (unlike using chlorine if the proper FC/CYA ratio is maintained). By the way, though Baquacil/biguanide/PHMB is the primary sanitizer in such systems, hydrogen peroxide is used as the oxidizer since Baqua is incompatible with chlorine/bromine/MPS. Unfortunately, the spa forums are not as full with members to the same extent as the over 20,000 members of The Pool Forum or the over 10,000 members of Trouble Free Pool, though this particular spa forum seems to be the most active. So the smaller number of reports from people who have used hydrogen peroxide and had problems is all you have to go on, assuming you avoid the commercial and obviously biased sites that sell products and would only report positive experiences rather than a statistical sampling.

All I can tell you is that hydrogen peroxide is not an EPA-approved disinfectant/sanitizer for use in pools or spas and the reason is that it simply does not kill bacteria quickly enough to pass the stringent requirements of DIS/TSS-12 I linked to above. That doesn't mean it's illegal to sell such products for use in residential pools or spas (though is not allowed by itself in commercial pools or spas based on most state regs), but it does mean that there can be nothing in the labeling or literature referring to (claiming or implying) sanitation, disinfection, killing bacteria, etc. If you look at the Peroxysan website, you will notice that they avoid making any such claims. Some hydrogen peroxide products can describe themselves as an EPA-registered pesticide (as shown here) which is less stringent than a disinfectant/sanitizer (algaecide products are typically registered as pesticides, but cannot be used alone for sanitation/disinfection). Peroxysan itself isn't even listed as a pesticide so can't even claim that EPA registration unless they share a common registration number.

Richard

[cramp11]

bart6453, great info. I'm beginning to believe that the stuff I found is dead. I put in a new filter last night and didn't find anything floating around in the filter solution this time. We haven't been able to use the tub the last couple of nights due to the weather. (winds are way too strong)

I guess when you detox a tub, you need to let the filter go. I just can't get the stuff off. I stuck the filter in the garage on nail. I'll let it sit out there for the winter. Maybe the stuff will shrivel up and fall off by spring. If not, I'll pitch it.

The tub has been crystal clear this week. *knock on wood*

chem geek, I know peroxysan hasn't passed the EPA DIS/TSS-12. They say they do pass, but can't afford to pay for the test. (uh huh...) The diff they say is they have Peracetic acid in their solution which Wikipedia says, "Peracetic acid can be used as a cooling tower water disinfect where it prevents bio film formation and effectively controls Legionella bacteria." The Sani-Cleen was just peroxide and peracetic acid, but at really high levels. I think it would have melted my skin.

Anywho... I'm just hoping to make it to the spring. I'm only two weeks into a fresh fill so it's too early to know anything yet.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Cramp, I would be interested to know what your concerns are about chlorine, and why you think that peroxide is a better choice.

I know that you have done a lot of research, and have given it much consideration. So, I'm sure that you have good reasons.

Thanks.

[cramp11]

I'm not anti chlorine or bromine. When we bought the tub, they threw in a case of Peroxysan with the tub and I snagged a 5 gallon pail from someone right after we filled the tub. That's a lot of chemicals I didn't want to waste.

We almost bought a hot tub years ago, but the dealer (another place) actually talked us out of it due to my eczema. It's not that bad, but he felt very strongly that the chemicals and heat would flare it up. We snagged a sauna instead (again, from somewhere else) I grew up with a sauna so I knew it was going to be fine.

When you read about chemicals online, most sites say, "Chlorine for the pool, bromine for the hotub"

I honestly didn't even know what we were getting when we bought the tub. I thought we were getting biguanide.

So... we're sticking because we have it. If it fails again, we'll move on (unless they give us a new tub and restock our supplies) I am somewhat nervous about switching and finding out I react to chlorine or bromine badly. I never had good experiences in pools as a kid. Rashes, hives, etc... probably just not a balanced pool/tub, but I'd hate to find out after I do a fresh fill.