Ready To Chuck The Tub After A Year...chems Never Balance!

[titianmom]

Hello,

I've had my beachcomber 350 for over a year. The good news is, the tub works fine.

The bad news: I can't seem to stay out of the HT store buying chemicals to treat the tub constantly. There has *got* to be a better way...otherwise, I'm beginning to believe that this thing is nothing but a money pit.

Usual routine:

I usually refill it after about 4 mths. I pour in a bottle of eliminate #1, a little over a cup of bromate and my new Frog and supposedly all I *should* have to do is shock it once a week.

Well, that ain't happenin'...

Usually right off something is screwed up. This last time, the bromine level was really low. So I added more bromate and cranked up the Frog a notch from 3 to 4. Usually I keep it on 3 and it is pretty much okay but not this time?! Anyway, still really low, so I opened up the Frog all the way to 6 and shocked it again. Now it's too high...

Meanwhile, the PH goes way up after only about 2 days. This happens whethere or not the bromine level is high. In the past, my bromine levels have usually been fine and the PH flies up really high after just a couple of days after filling it.

So I've bought I don't know how many bottles of PH Minus to try to get it back down, and usually when I take a test in I have to dump nearly a half bottle in to get it back down...only to come back up again within a week. Sometimes I have to add Resist because of the alkaline levels.

Anyway, this is a constant process with this tub. The dealer just srudges and says, "Don't know" and his wife admitted they are always putting in PH minus in their tub.

Something they don't tell you when they sell you the tub of course. It's just the "Easy to maintain" line when they're selling you the tub.

Any comments? I've read somewhere that you shouldn't use a Frog. Period.

THe dealer rang up how much it would cost to switch to one of the usual Beachcomber chemicals packages that you use in leu of the Frog system, and it was $105. to buy everything! Silly!

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Kim

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Something I should explain is, I'm not some woman just dumping stuff into the tub. I get it tested by the store and follow THEIR directions. It only clears up the prob for a couple of days and I'm back to having high pH, usually. I'm getting tired of running to the store and getting my water tested. Is there anyplace I can buy a complete testing kit and not just a bromine and pH tester?

[Nitro]

You can try another method using Dichlor/Bleach. You can go here to read about it. Regardless of the sanitation method you use, the Water Balance section has good information on how to keep your pH in line. Let us know if you have any questions.

[fdegree]

I am a relative newbie…had the tub for a little over 1 year. So, there are tons of folks here that are much more knowledgeable than I. While we wait for them to read and respond to your issue, I thought I would add my $0.02

First, I would suggest getting a water test kit where you have to use drops of chemicals. With this type of test kit you fill a tube with water and place drops of chemicals in that tube until you get specific color results. It sounds a little intimidating at first, but with a little practice it really is quite easy. If you are using bromine in your tub, I would suggest the Taylor FAS-DPD Kit #K-2106 (just do a web search and you’ll find a few different places that sell it). They have a kit for chlorine and another for bromine, so make sure you get the proper one. It is a bit pricey, but well worth it in the long run.

I purchased a computer program off the internet for about $25 that tells me exactly how much of what chemical to add to the tub after I enter in the test results. Now, there is a learning curve associated to getting the program set-up for your situation and chemicals that you plan to use. But, after using it for a while, it has proven invaluable for me. Again, just search the internet and you will find a handful of different programs out there, if you are interested.

You don’t need some of the traditional spa/pool chemicals. Baking Soda will raise alkalinity…Borax will raise pH (running the air pump and/or air jets will also raise your pH). Although, acid is the only thing I know of to lower pH.

There is a wonderful discussion on this board about how a lower than normal alkalinity level will help keep the pH from rising when your tub’s pH has a tendency to creep up. I keep my alkalinity between 30 and 80 for just this reason. Search this forum for that topic, it may help.

I don’t use the frog, but I do use a floating bromine dispenser with bromine tablets in it. I’m assuming these are similar devices. For me, variations in how often we use the tub really effects the bromine level and requires a little more attention to the floater setting. Sometimes I have to remove the floater to get the bromine level back down to the proper range.

If you have added Sodium Bromide to establish a bromide “bank” (bromide sitting in reserve, waiting to be “activated”), then all you should need is regular unscented chlorine bleach to shock the tub. This will raise the bromine level above 10 ppm for shocking purposes. Then wait for the level to drop below 10 ppm before entering the tub. You may not have to add any more Sodium Bromide to the tub during that fill if you are using the frog, unless there is unusually high usage and shocking required. There are discussions on this topic here within this forum. Search for them and they will help you determine how much bleach to add when you want to shock your tub.

Much of this water balancing seems quite daunting at first. But, with some research on this board, asking questions on this board and some practice on your part, it becomes fairly easy. Have patience and learn by asking and doing…it will pay off soon.

[cashews]

I am a relative newbie…had the tub for a little over 1 year. So, there are tons of folks here that are much more knowledgeable than I. While we wait for them to read and respond to your issue, I thought I would add my $0.02

First, I would suggest getting a water test kit where you have to use drops of chemicals. With this type of test kit you fill a tube with water and place drops of chemicals in that tube until you get specific color results. It sounds a little intimidating at first, but with a little practice it really is quite easy. If you are using bromine in your tub, I would suggest the Taylor FAS-DPD Kit #K-2106 (just do a web search and you’ll find a few different places that sell it). They have a kit for chlorine and another for bromine, so make sure you get the proper one. It is a bit pricey, but well worth it in the long run.

I purchased a computer program off the internet for about $25 that tells me exactly how much of what chemical to add to the tub after I enter in the test results. Now, there is a learning curve associated to getting the program set-up for your situation and chemicals that you plan to use. But, after using it for a while, it has proven invaluable for me. Again, just search the internet and you will find a handful of different programs out there, if you are interested.

You don’t need some of the traditional spa/pool chemicals. Baking Soda will raise alkalinity…Borax will raise pH (running the air pump and/or air jets will also raise your pH). Although, acid is the only thing I know of to lower pH.

There is a wonderful discussion on this board about how a lower than normal alkalinity level will help keep the pH from rising when your tub’s pH has a tendency to creep up. I keep my alkalinity between 30 and 80 for just this reason. Search this forum for that topic, it may help.

I don’t use the frog, but I do use a floating bromine dispenser with bromine tablets in it. I’m assuming these are similar devices. For me, variations in how often we use the tub really effects the bromine level and requires a little more attention to the floater setting. Sometimes I have to remove the floater to get the bromine level back down to the proper range.

If you have added Sodium Bromide to establish a bromide “bank” (bromide sitting in reserve, waiting to be “activated”), then all you should need is regular unscented chlorine bleach to shock the tub. This will raise the bromine level above 10 ppm for shocking purposes. Then wait for the level to drop below 10 ppm before entering the tub. You may not have to add any more Sodium Bromide to the tub during that fill if you are using the frog, unless there is unusually high usage and shocking required. There are discussions on this topic here within this forum. Search for them and they will help you determine how much bleach to add when you want to shock your tub.

Much of this water balancing seems quite daunting at first. But, with some research on this board, asking questions on this board and some practice on your part, it becomes fairly easy. Have patience and learn by asking and doing…it will pay off soon.

yes.

Don't chuck the tub!! Just start over. Read up before you do. A fresh tub of water is like the dawn of a new day.

[Kiz]

I purchased a computer program off the internet for about $25 that tells me exactly how much of what chemical to add to the tub after I enter in the test results.

Can anyone tell me more about this? Where did you get this program? (or anything like it.)

[Nitro]

I purchased a computer program off the internet for about $25 that tells me exactly how much of what chemical to add to the tub after I enter in the test results.

Can anyone tell me more about this? Where did you get this program? (or anything like it.)

There's a website called The Pool Calculator that will do it for you.

[fdegree]

Nitro is correct, and it does work well. Use it with confidence.

But, if you are interested in having your own program on your computer just type "pool water software" into any search engine and look at what pops up. Research many of the sites that pop-up because there is a significant price difference between some of them. Some even offer a free trial.

I like having my own because I can enter the names of the chemicals that I'm using and the percentage of active ingredients found in that product. This makes for a little more accuracy in the calculations of what needs to be dumped into the spa. It will also give hints as to what may be causing any water discoloration and how to treat it...a little more informative for the novice.

[Nitro]

FYI, you go to The Pool Calculator, hit File/Save As and save a copy to your local computer. Then you can run it locally.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Titan mom

Understanding how bromine works may help you. This is for regular bromine systems, the frog is a bit different but it will give you the idea. Bromine is a renewable sanitizer, when it was low it was working on something, thus chewing it up, when you shock it renews the used bromine, when you cranked it open you added a lot of bromie, thus when you shocked you established it and re established all the used bromine too. I hope this helps......

Bromine

When bromine is added to a spa it's in the form of bromide ions. It then activated with an oxidizer to form hypobromous acid. Hypobromous acid is the killing form of bromine. When hypobromous acid reacts with an organic contaminant it's reduced back to bromide ions. The bromide ions can then be reactivated back into hypobromous acid by the addition of an oxidizer. This is somewhat of a continuos cycle with bromine sanitized spas.

If 100 percent of the bromide ions became hypobromous acid and 100 percent of the hypobromous acid returned to bromide ions, you would never again have to add more bromide salt. But hypobromous acid can react with certain chemicals in the water that tie up the bromide ions and prevents them from becoming free bromide ions in the water. This happens when hypobromous acid produces bromate or bromoform for instance. There are many other combinations that tie up the bromine so it can not become a free bromide ions. For this reason more bromine salt or bromide ions need to periodically be added. The level of bromide ions should not go below 15 ppm.

The basis behind 2-part liquid bromine sanitizing systems is to add a salt of bromine (sodium bromide) to the water to get bromide ions and then oxidize the bromide ions with an oxidizer such as monopersulfate (MPS), hydrogen peroxide, percarbonate, ozone or any compound of chlorine to produce hypobromous acid. You need a minimum of 15 ppm of bromide ions for an oxidizer to work and to provide a "bank" of bromide ions for an oxidizer to react with.

Bromine tablets are typically 1-bromo-3-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin. When added to water they hydrolyze to become hypobromous acid. With bromine tablets a separate oxidizer is not necessary to make hypobromous acid, it is already an ingredient in the tablets. When the hypobromous acid reacts with a contaminant and is reduced, it becomes a bromide ion. You then get a build up of bromide ions in the water. After a while, you could just start adding an oxidizer to reactivate the bromide ions to hypobromous acid, but most people don't, they just add more bromine tabs.

Currently is no way to test water to find out how much bromide ions are in it. This is because the same test that measures bromide ions also measures chloride ions and all water has chloride ions in it. Other than making an educated guess, there's no way to tell when the bromide ion level is too low. The 2-part bromine manufacturers know this and recommend that you add some bromide ions (liquid bromide salts) every few weeks or so.

Realistically, a bromine sanitized spa can not be switched over to chlorine, if there's still bromine in the water. All the chlorine added to the water is going to convert bromide ions into hypobromous acid. As long as there's 15 ppm or more of bromide ions in the water, all the chlorine added is going towards converting bromide ions into hypobromous acid, none of it will provide a chlorine residual. The spa will continue to be bromine sanitized until the bromide level gets below 15 ppm. But there is no test kit for measuring just bromide ions in the water and therefore no way to know when the bromide level is below 15 ppm. It could take a week. It could take 2 months.

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Maintaining a Bromine Sanitized Spa

Upon initially filling, you need to establish a bromide ion reserve in the water. Bromine tablets can do this by themselves, but it can literally take weeks until enough tablets dissolve. Some people crush about 6 tablets up and put them in the water to achieve this initial reserve, but it's really easier and cheaper to add a packet or two of sodium bromide! Bromine tablets contain both bromine and chlorine to oxidize the bromine into active sanitizer. If you do not add the sodium bromide and just put in bromine tablets then you will be starting with a chlorine system until enough bromide dissolves in the water.

There are basically two types of bromine systems, 2-step and 3-step. In the 2-step system you add the sodium bromide to the water to the proper concentration, then add oxidizer on a regular basis (usually, chlorine, MPS, or ozone, or a combination of them) to oxidize the bromide ions into hypobromous acid, your active sanitizer. One of the more popular 2-step bromine systems is the Enhance/Activate Sanitizing System. It's quite easy but does require a bit of attention daily to maintain the bromine levels in the water.

A 3-step system is identical with the addition of bromine tablets in a floating feeder. This requires a bit less maintenance than the 2-step system, maintains a slightly more constant bromine level in the water, by allowing the bromine tablets to continuously and slowly dissolve into the water. The 3-step system costs more than the 2-step, since the bromine tablets are the most expensive part of this equation.

If you use the 2-step system and have an efficient ozonator, you might be able to achieve the constant bromine level without the use, or by using less oxidizer (MPS or chlorine) since the ozone is constantly oxidizing the sodium bromide while it is on. However, you may also deplete the bromide reserve more quickly this way, leading to the use of more sodium bromide, or a shorter time between drain and refills. Also, ozone can cause bromates to form in your water. Bromates are a suspected carcinogen in drinking water.

With either the 2-step or 3-step system you still need to shock the water, usually about once a week, to destroy organics in the water. "Shocking" involves raising the bromine levels to above 10 ppm. For shocking, any type of chlorine, or non-chlorine shock (MPS) can be used.

Simple Step by Step

Upon initially filling, balance the water (adjust TA and pH and calcium).

If you have metals in your water add a metal sequesterant.

On each fill add sodium bromide to the water (following manufacturer's directions on dosing, you'll end up with about a 30 ppm concentration of sodium bromide ions).

Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should be above 10 ppm (wait until they drop below 10 ppm to use spa).

If using a 3-step system add your floating feeder with bromine tablets and adjust it to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level. If using a 2-step system add your preferred oxidizer as needed (and adjust your ozone) to maintain a 4-6 ppm bromine level.

Shock weekly to burn off organics that collect in the water (if you are using ozone and your bromine levels are staying at 4-6 ppm then you may be able to shock less often).

Test bromine and pH each time you use the spa. Test all water parameters (bromine, pH, TA, Calcium Hardness) weekly.

Drain and refill about every 3-4 months.

The Ph is an ongoing battle fo many, dont get to upset. Many things effect it including body chemistry tubs with a lot of jets ect.. Are you on well water? If not you may be a canidate for a PH buffering agent, but you have to have good water without metals present.