Update On My 'tests'

[chem geek]

Richard, I've been trying to order through Lowry's here in Canada, but it is hard to do it seems. I've emailed them, they make it pretty easy to order the entire kits.

Yeah, Canada is a special case since Taylor goes through Lowry and tftestkits.com is not allowed to sell directly through Canada -- any Taylor kits have to go through Lowry as the distributor for Canada. You can get Taylor test kits in Canada through Apollo here since they buy from Lowry's and it's not cheap, but at least with a kit they give you a magnetic stirrer for free.

[LauraG]

Richard, I've been trying to order through Lowry's here in Canada, but it is hard to do it seems. I've emailed them, they make it pretty easy to order the entire kits.

Yeah, Canada is a special case since Taylor goes through Lowry and tftestkits.com is not allowed to sell directly through Canada -- any Taylor kits have to go through Lowry as the distributor for Canada. You can get Taylor test kits in Canada through Apollo here since they buy from Lowry's and it's not cheap, but at least with a kit they give you a magnetic stirrer for free.

Thanks Richard, you saved me a lot of time!! I've ordered what I needed.

[LauraG]

Richard, I've been trying to order through Lowry's here in Canada, but it is hard to do it seems. I've emailed them, they make it pretty easy to order the entire kits.

Yeah, Canada is a special case since Taylor goes through Lowry and tftestkits.com is not allowed to sell directly through Canada -- any Taylor kits have to go through Lowry as the distributor for Canada. You can get Taylor test kits in Canada through Apollo here since they buy from Lowry's and it's not cheap, but at least with a kit they give you a magnetic stirrer for free.

Thanks Richard, you saved me a lot of time!! I've ordered what I needed.

So, Nitro, I did everything you said last night, and today the FC is 4.5

CC 1.5 pH7.8. I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

[LauraG]

Richard, I've been trying to order through Lowry's here in Canada, but it is hard to do it seems. I've emailed them, they make it pretty easy to order the entire kits.

Yeah, Canada is a special case since Taylor goes through Lowry and tftestkits.com is not allowed to sell directly through Canada -- any Taylor kits have to go through Lowry as the distributor for Canada. You can get Taylor test kits in Canada through Apollo here since they buy from Lowry's and it's not cheap, but at least with a kit they give you a magnetic stirrer for free.

Thanks Richard, you saved me a lot of time!! I've ordered what I needed.

So, Nitro, I did everything you said last night, and today the FC is 4.5

CC 1.5 pH7.8. I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

maybe chem geek has an idea....

[Nitro]

So, Nitro, I did everything you said last night, and today the FC is 4.5

CC 1.5 pH7.8. I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

Let me make sure I have it correct. Last night your FC was ~12 ppm???. You added 1 oz of MPS, let it run for 15 mins and closed it up. Today your FC is 4.5 ppm. This is a little better, but you still have a high chlorine demand.

Are you having problems with foam and/or waterline scum etc.? The chlorine could be working on oils, lotions etc., which take longer to break down. MPS should help this out.

You can try doing another shock tonight. i.e. FC to ~12 ppm and add another oz (or two) of MPS. Only let the jets run for 15 min to mix it before covering. I hate to have you keep shocking the tub, but the only way I see to get your chlorine demand down is to keep shocking it, or do a water change.

BTW, when did you change your water last? It could be that because you're using the tub so much, you're now ready for another water change. Have you noticed the water to be sluggish? Do the bubbles take a lot longer to dissipate?

[chem geek]

I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

Each drop in the TA test represents 10 ppm, not 25 ppm.

[LauraG]

I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

Each drop in the TA test represents 10 ppm, not 25 ppm.

I used the 10mL sample, 5 drops means 125 right?

[LauraG]

So, Nitro, I did everything you said last night, and today the FC is 4.5

CC 1.5 pH7.8. I checked the TA and it was not a brilliant red at 100, but with one more drop it was really red, so that makes it 125. Perhaps this is part of the problem?

Let me make sure I have it correct. Last night your FC was ~12 ppm???. You added 1 oz of MPS, let it run for 15 mins and closed it up. Today your FC is 4.5 ppm. This is a little better, but you still have a high chlorine demand.

Are you having problems with foam and/or waterline scum etc.? The chlorine could be working on oils, lotions etc., which take longer to break down. MPS should help this out.

You can try doing another shock tonight. i.e. FC to ~12 ppm and add another oz (or two) of MPS. Only let the jets run for 15 min to mix it before covering. I hate to have you keep shocking the tub, but the only way I see to get your chlorine demand down is to keep shocking it, or do a water change.

BTW, when did you change your water last? It could be that because you're using the tub so much, you're now ready for another water change. Have you noticed the water to be sluggish? Do the bubbles take a lot longer to dissipate?

After I added 10 oz. of Purox and 1 oz. MPS and aerated for 15 min. the FC was 14.5 (it had been 2.0 before adding)

Today the FC was 4.5, yep.

I am getting some foam only while all jets are full blast, no waterline scum to speak of, just a little (about the same as always), I am looking for a date of when I changed the water, it was in November.

We haven't used the tub this week too much at all. The last day we used it was Tuesday.

The water does not feel sluggish at all, but perhaps the bubbles take a bit longer to dissipate. Honestly, the water does seem fine, quite nice actually.

I will shock it again tonight and see what happens tomorrow.

[Nitro]

After I added 10 oz. of Purox and 1 oz. MPS and aerated for 15 min. the FC was 14.5 (it had been 2.0 before adding)

Today the FC was 4.5, yep.

I am getting some foam only while all jets are full blast, no waterline scum to speak of, just a little (about the same as always), I am looking for a date of when I changed the water, it was in November.

We haven't used the tub this week too much at all. The last day we used it was Tuesday.

The water does not feel sluggish at all, but perhaps the bubbles take a bit longer to dissipate. Honestly, the water does seem fine, quite nice actually.

I will shock it again tonight and see what happens tomorrow.

Shock FC to ~12, and use two ounces MPS. Then see what happens tomorrow.

If FC is still low, you're getting tired of shocking and you don't mind adding extra Purox to keep up, you could just deal with it until your next water change. You just need to be extra careful about letting your FC drop too low. Also, it may be difficult to make it through the whole winter without needing another water change.

[LauraG]

After I added 10 oz. of Purox and 1 oz. MPS and aerated for 15 min. the FC was 14.5 (it had been 2.0 before adding)

Today the FC was 4.5, yep.

I am getting some foam only while all jets are full blast, no waterline scum to speak of, just a little (about the same as always), I am looking for a date of when I changed the water, it was in November.

We haven't used the tub this week too much at all. The last day we used it was Tuesday.

The water does not feel sluggish at all, but perhaps the bubbles take a bit longer to dissipate. Honestly, the water does seem fine, quite nice actually.

I will shock it again tonight and see what happens tomorrow.

Shock FC to ~12, and use two ounces MPS. Then see what happens tomorrow.

If FC is still low, you're getting tired of shocking and you don't mind adding extra Purox to keep up, you could just deal with it until your next water change. You just need to be extra careful about letting your FC drop too low. Also, it may be difficult to make it through the whole winter without needing another water change.

I shocked it to 12, and put 50 grams of MPS in (which is almost 2 oz). This is probably quite tiresome for you, but it is helping me greatly!!! I don't mind at all. My daughter is calling me an incompetent mad scientist! LOL

I will be careful about the FC. I was getting worried as I am running out of R-0871, but I ordered a new supply. I am hoping that I won't run out before it arrives.

I spoke to my husband about a water change, and he is not too keen at all about doing it during the winter. He says it is not good for the hot tub.... (freezing up I guess) But I will wait for a mild day. It won't go above 0 here very often now. I'm sure it will be fine for a while anyway.

You don't mind that I keep on asking advice??? I don't want to become a huge nuisance.

[chem geek]

The normal time interval for a water change is (1/3) x (# of gallons) / (# of bathers) where the soak time is normally presumed to be around 20 minutes in a spa. In terms of bather-hours and for your 380 gallon spa this is (1/9) x (380) / (bather-hours). Even with only 2 bather-hours per day which is on the low-side for what you say you are doing, this comes to (1/9) x (380) / (2) = 21 days. The Dichlor-then-bleach method may allow one to double this, but that's only 42 days and your bather load is higher than 2 bather-hours per day average. So I don't think there is any way you'll be able to go the entire winter without a water change.

You need to understand that you are using your tub with a bather load that is absolutely unheard of. Spending 2 hours in a tub is not at all normal and though you are at a lower temperature, it's not that low (i.e. not 90F, but 100F) and you have 2 people minimum with many more at other times. You simply cannot expect the water to remain clean over an extended period of time. Perhaps if everyone that used your tub were exceptionally clean -- no lotions, makeup, freshly showered, etc. -- then maybe the water could last longer but that's just speculation on my part.

All I can say is that if you had used Dichlor-only, you'd be in even worse shape far sooner, probably with water turning cloudy and perhaps with more smell. At least the CC you are experiencing doesn't seem to be smelly. I suspect it's harder-to-oxidize and slower-to-oxidize organics which would explain the FC usage and the persistent CC. There may be nothing you can do about that. There are enzyme products that *might* help, but I can't say for sure. If the FC usage or the CC are a problem for you, then you could consider enzymes, but really the right thing to do is to change the water more frequently.

As for freezing up of the hot tub by changing the water in the winter, that doesn't have to be the case if you do it carefully with a partial drain/refill. That is, drain it down far enough where you still get circulation with the pump, but can then add more water to replace most of it. That should certainly help a great deal. You could even just do two half drain/refill which will end up at least changing out 75% of your water which is better than nothing.

Richard

[Nitro]

Richard and I are in full agreement here. If it were summer, I'd tell you to change the water tomorrow and be done with it. Being winter, I'll tell you to look out for the next mild day. The tub shouldn't have a problem refilling if you do as Richard suggests. However, I can't say the same for your husband.

One thing I will add is, and this is entirely up to you, you can continue to try to get your Chlorine Demand (CD) down. First, see what happens tomorrow. If it looks like your (CD) is going down (i.e. your FC is higher), you may still be able to "catch" up a little.

If you can catch up, at least you won't be using as much chlorine. It would be interesting to see if you can get your CD down (i.e. FC up). If it were me, I would do it just to find out. But I don't want you to waste your chemicals and reagents without knowing it may not work. Also, you can't use the tub while doing this, so you may just want to get as much use out of it as you can.

Either way, let us know the FC level tomorrow.

[LauraG]

Richard and I are in full agreement here. If it were summer, I'd tell you to change the water tomorrow and be done with it. Being winter, I'll tell you to look out for the next mild day. The tub shouldn't have a problem refilling if you do as Richard suggests. However, I can't say the same for your husband.

One thing I will add is, and this is entirely up to you, you can continue to try to get your Chlorine Demand (CD) down. First, see what happens tomorrow. If it looks like your (CD) is going down (i.e. your FC is higher), you may still be able to "catch" up a little.

If you can catch up, at least you won't be using as much chlorine. It would be interesting to see if you can get your CD down (i.e. FC up). If it were me, I would do it just to find out. But I don't want you to waste your chemicals and reagents without knowing it may not work. Also, you can't use the tub while doing this, so you may just want to get as much use out of it as you can.

Either way, let us know the FC level tomorrow.

The FC today was 4.0. However, I did go in earlier for about 15 min. so...

As far as the high bather load, it has settled down somewhat (especially this week) I'd say that it's about twice a week that there is an 'extreme' bather load on average now.

[Maxemily]

I live north of Chicago and know what it is like to change water in the middle of winter. It is not as bad as it sounds.

I do the spa flush first, then let it drain. Sometimes I help it along by bailing with my 5 gal Home Depot bucket, sometimes not. As the water is draining I clean what needs to be cleaned and use the old water to rinse. Remember, the water is 100F and no matter how cold it is outside your hands will stay warm.

The fill water coming out of the spigot in this area is 55F in winter. There is no chance of that water freezing, even on a 0F day, in the time it takes to fill the water above where the heater can be used.

I stressed the first time I did a complete water change on a really cold day, but no more. You will find out what a non-issue it is once you do it.

Waiting for a mild day is always an option, but not a necessity.

[LauraG]

I live north of Chicago and know what it is like to change water in the middle of winter. It is not as bad as it sounds.

I do the spa flush first, then let it drain. Sometimes I help it along by bailing with my 5 gal Home Depot bucket, sometimes not. As the water is draining I clean what needs to be cleaned and use the old water to rinse. Remember, the water is 100F and no matter how cold it is outside your hands will stay warm.

The fill water coming out of the spigot in this area is 55F in winter. There is no chance of that water freezing, even on a 0F day, in the time it takes to fill the water above where the heater can be used.

I stressed the first time I did a complete water change on a really cold day, but no more. You will find out what a non-issue it is once you do it.

Waiting for a mild day is always an option, but not a necessity.

Thanks for the help. I've discussed this with my husband and we think that we'll drain it just after Christmas when we're both off work.

[Nitro]

The FC today was 4.0. However, I did go in earlier for about 15 min. so...

As far as the high bather load, it has settled down somewhat (especially this week) I'd say that it's about twice a week that there is an 'extreme' bather load on average now.

Well, the fact that you used it makes it a little hard to tell, but it doesn't seem like it's getting much better. I'd just use it, keep an eye on your FC and drain it the first chance you get. You'll be amazed by the feel of the new water.

After you refil it do another Chlorine Demand test before you use it. Shock to ~10 ppm FC, and measure again 24 hours later. That will give you a good base line. Then you can keep track of your CD, by doing a test once a week. If you find your CD to be rising too fast, you know to use more chlorine.

[LauraG]

The FC today was 4.0. However, I did go in earlier for about 15 min. so...

As far as the high bather load, it has settled down somewhat (especially this week) I'd say that it's about twice a week that there is an 'extreme' bather load on average now.

Well, the fact that you used it makes it a little hard to tell, but it doesn't seem like it's getting much better. I'd just use it, keep an eye on your FC and drain it the first chance you get. You'll be amazed by the feel of the new water.

After you refil it do another Chlorine Demand test before you use it. Shock to ~10 ppm FC, and measure again 24 hours later. That will give you a good base line. Then you can keep track of your CD, by doing a test once a week. If you find your CD to be rising too fast, you know to use more chlorine.

Do you mean to shock to 10 ppm with Dichlor as I will be using that for the first few days.

[Nitro]

Do you mean to shock to 10 ppm with Dichlor as I will be using that for the first few days.

Yes, when you first fill the tub, use Dichlor. 1 oz (2 tablespoons) should put you at ~12 ppm in a 380 Gal tub. Let the jets run for 30 min. Then check FC, note it, cover and let sit overnight without using it. 24 hours later check FC again. This will give you a good base line. As I said, I'm only using ~25% FC per day with no use. Assuming you'll be this low (and I believe you will), you should be around ~8 ppm FC the next day.

Remember to keep track of the Dichlor you use, so you know when you get to ~30 ppm CYA. That would be a total of 3 ounces (6 tablespoons). Afer you add a total of 6 TBS to your tub, you can check CYA to make sure you're around 30 ppm. Then switch to bleach.

Also, I forgot, what's your pH, TA and CH coming from your tap water again? You might want to check it to make sure before you fill. You can balance your water the day after you fill, if your tap water's pH isn't too far off.

Lastly, did you use a Spa Flush on your last refill? If not, you may want to consider it. It should break up any gunk in your pipes. With your bather loads, it couldn't hurt. Remove your filter before you use that stuff, and soak it overnight in a filter cleaner.

If you come up with a good plan before hand, the whole thing should go quick and easy.

[LauraG]

Do you mean to shock to 10 ppm with Dichlor as I will be using that for the first few days.

Yes, when you first fill the tub, use Dichlor. 1 oz (2 tablespoons) should put you at ~12 ppm in a 380 Gal tub. Let the jets run for 30 min. Then check FC, note it, cover and let sit overnight without using it. 24 hours later check FC again. This will give you a good base line. As I said, I'm only using ~25% FC per day with no use. Assuming you'll be this low (and I believe you will), you should be around ~8 ppm FC the next day.

Remember to keep track of the Dichlor you use, so you know when you get to ~30 ppm CYA. That would be a total of 3 ounces (6 tablespoons). Afer you add a total of 6 TBS to your tub, you can check CYA to make sure you're around 30 ppm. Then switch to bleach.

Also, I forgot, what's your pH, TA and CH coming from your tap water again? You might want to check it to make sure before you fill. You can balance your water the day after you fill, if your tap water's pH isn't too far off.

Lastly, did you use a Spa Flush on your last refill? If not, you may want to consider it. It should break up any gunk in your pipes. With your bather loads, it couldn't hurt. Remove your filter before you use that stuff, and soak it overnight in a filter cleaner.

If you come up with a good plan before hand, the whole thing should go quick and easy.

We've got some nasty weather here, so we have yet to change the water. However the TA was 125 the pH went to plus 8, so I did the add acid, areate, add acid thing......and today, the TA is 75, and the pH was around 7.0 so I aerated for half an hour and the pH jumped back up over 8. Do you think that perhaps I should have left my TA around 100 so as to not get so much pH bounce?

I have added more acid, and I'm going to test in an hour or so again.

[Nitro]

We've got some nasty weather here, so we have yet to change the water. However the TA was 125 the pH went to plus 8, so I did the add acid, areate, add acid thing......and today, the TA is 75, and the pH was around 7.0 so I aerated for half an hour and the pH jumped back up over 8. Do you think that perhaps I should have left my TA around 100 so as to not get so much pH bounce?

I have added more acid, and I'm going to test in an hour or so again.

The reason your pH went over 8 is because 75 ppm TA is still too high for you. Your pH is rising from aeration, and a lower TA will help that. If you get your TA down around 60, your pH should be more stable. A TA of 100 will be much worse than 75.

I'm still wondering how your TA got so high. Have you been using Baking Soda to clean your spa? If so, I would stop that. You're getting too much in the water, and messing up your balance. Your TA (and pH) should stay realitivly the same, and not go up, if you don't use BK.

[LauraG]

We've got some nasty weather here, so we have yet to change the water. However the TA was 125 the pH went to plus 8, so I did the add acid, areate, add acid thing......and today, the TA is 75, and the pH was around 7.0 so I aerated for half an hour and the pH jumped back up over 8. Do you think that perhaps I should have left my TA around 100 so as to not get so much pH bounce?

I have added more acid, and I'm going to test in an hour or so again.

The reason your pH went over 8 is because 75 ppm TA is still too high for you. Your pH is rising from aeration, and a lower TA will help that. If you get your TA down around 60, your pH should be more stable. A TA of 100 will be much worse than 75.

I'm still wondering how your TA got so high. Have you been using Baking Soda to clean your spa? If so, I would stop that. You're getting too much in the water, and messing up your balance. Your TA (and pH) should stay realitivly the same, and not go up, if you don't use BK.

I don't know either, why the TA went up there, but as of last night it was stable at 75, and the pH wasn't rising too quickly. I am going to continue today to lower the TA. It is a good learning experience for me, as I am testing often and seeing the results rather quickly. I got my new 'shipment' needed for the Taylor Kit, so I am good to go. Soon, we will change the water. Before that though I will test my tap water and let you know, ok?