Ph Anchor

[fourrunner72]

I found this quote on the product's website:

"For an even easier way to perfectly balanced spa water, use Spa Essentials® pH Anchor. pH Anchor helps adjust the pH to its proper range and hold it there for up to two months. There is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor."

Can anyone explain to me why there is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor?

I understand that pH anchor "removes dissolved calcium and softens of the water" but I was also under the impression that if the water was too soft it could be harmful to the spa equipment.

Is the assumption that since pH is balanced, soft water no longer is harmful?

[chem geek]

I found this quote on the product's website:

"For an even easier way to perfectly balanced spa water, use Spa Essentials® pH Anchor. pH Anchor helps adjust the pH to its proper range and hold it there for up to two months. There is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor."

Can anyone explain to me why there is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor?

I understand that pH anchor "removes dissolved calcium and softens of the water" but I was also under the impression that if the water was too soft it could be harmful to the spa equipment.

Is the assumption that since pH is balanced, soft water no longer is harmful?

pH Anchor is a phosphate buffer for locking in pH, but that precipitates calcium phosphate so lowers calcium hardness considerably (i.e. softens the water). Having low calcium or a negative saturation index by itself is not corrosive to metal though this is controversial. Generally, corrosion is caused from higher oxidizer levels and lower pH so one could argue that having a stronger pH buffer stabilizes pH more even locally to prevent corrosion. The presence of phosphates themselves tends to inhibit corrosion and in fact is added to some municipal water supplies for that reason -- my tap water has 300-500 ppb phosphates for that reason. In general, I only say you have to have higher calcium hardness (CH) levels when there is exposed plaster/gunite/grout and to a lesser extent fiberglass (for the gelcoat) or if one wants to reduce foaming.

Richard

[fourrunner72]

I found this quote on the product's website:

"For an even easier way to perfectly balanced spa water, use Spa Essentials® pH Anchor. pH Anchor helps adjust the pH to its proper range and hold it there for up to two months. There is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor."

Can anyone explain to me why there is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor?

I understand that pH anchor "removes dissolved calcium and softens of the water" but I was also under the impression that if the water was too soft it could be harmful to the spa equipment.

Is the assumption that since pH is balanced, soft water no longer is harmful?

pH Anchor is a phosphate buffer for locking in pH, but that precipitates calcium phosphate so lowers calcium hardness considerably (i.e. softens the water). Having low calcium or a negative saturation index by itself is not corrosive to metal though this is controversial. Generally, corrosion is caused from higher oxidizer levels and lower pH so one could argue that having a stronger pH buffer stabilizes pH more even locally to prevent corrosion. The presence of phosphates themselves tends to inhibit corrosion and in fact is added to some municipal water supplies for that reason -- my tap water has 300-500 ppb phosphates for that reason. In general, I only say you have to have higher calcium hardness (CH) levels when there is exposed plaster/gunite/grout and to a lesser extent fiberglass (for the gelcoat) or if one wants to reduce foaming.

Richard

Thanks Richard...makes sense.

[fdegree]

In general, I only say you have to have higher calcium hardness (CH) levels when there is exposed plaster/gunite/grout and to a lesser extent fiberglass (for the gelcoat) or if one wants to reduce foaming.

Richard

Perhaps I have missed this in other topics, but this is the first time I have seen the mention of CH in conjunction with a fiberglass tub. I realize you say it is to a lesser extent, but just how important is this? How does it impact the gelcoat? Is there a CH target range to shoot for specifically for fiberglass tubs?

[chem geek]

Perhaps I have missed this in other topics, but this is the first time I have seen the mention of CH in conjunction with a fiberglass tub. I realize you say it is to a lesser extent, but just how important is this? How does it impact the gelcoat? Is there a CH target range to shoot for specifically for fiberglass tubs?

This is an area where it's not as clear or definitive as it is with plaster/gunite/grout. Some forms of fiberglass pools are constructed with a gelcoat backing that is calcium carbonate based and if for any reason that gets any exposure to the water, then it should have a higher saturation index to prevent dissolving that gelcoat layer. I'm not so sure that this would apply to a hot tub, though it might and I don't believe that acrylic has such a gelcoat backing. Normally, though, one would have 100-150 ppm CH anyway in order to prevent foaming and the saturation index would be closer to zero in that case. So in practice, it's only this extreme phosphate-based buffering system where the CH will be very, very low that *might* be a concern *if* the hot tub fiberglass construction had a calcium carbonate gelcoat. A lot of speculation -- if someone in the industry knows more about fiberglass spa construction and where the water impermeable layer exists, then that would be helpful.

Richard

[fdegree]

Gotcha...Thanks!!!

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Some pumps have ceramic disks in the seals, some have ceramic in the heaters ect. If you keep your spa CH at 50-100 you should be fine.

As a side note, I would not add CH if using a PH buffer unless it is made to do so. It has caused many issues in many spas. I used to use PH buffer and noticed over time, even at the lower CH, i was having issues with calcium build up. I stopped using it, cleaned the spa and have had no problems since. People on well water (in this area) also have major issues with the PH buffers. i guess we just have to adjust it on our own

[fourrunner72]

Some pumps have ceramic disks in the seals, some have ceramic in the heaters ect. If you keep your spa CH at 50-100 you should be fine.

As a side note, I would not add CH if using a PH buffer unless it is made to do so. It has caused many issues in many spas. I used to use PH buffer and noticed over time, even at the lower CH, i was having issues with calcium build up. I stopped using it, cleaned the spa and have had no problems since. People on well water (in this area) also have major issues with the PH buffers. i guess we just have to adjust it on our own

Here is what my dealer replied with:

"IF YOU ADD THE CALCIUM WITH THE PH ANCHOR THE CALCIUM WILL JUST BECOME A LIQUID AND IT CAN HARDEN ON YOUR FILTERS AND IN THE LINES."

so I plan to leave my calcium alone...I think the bottle of pH anchor has extra precautions or extra steps to take when your calcium was way too high to begin with....i'm not sure what mine was prior to pH anchor...I plan to check my tap water tonight.

[chem geek]

Here is what my dealer replied with:

"IF YOU ADD THE CALCIUM WITH THE PH ANCHOR THE CALCIUM WILL JUST BECOME A LIQUID AND IT CAN HARDEN ON YOUR FILTERS AND IN THE LINES."

so I plan to leave my calcium alone...I think the bottle of pH anchor has extra precautions or extra steps to take when your calcium was way too high to begin with....i'm not sure what mine was prior to pH anchor...I plan to check my tap water tonight.

You should NOT add calcium when you are using a phosphate pH buffer. No one was suggesting that. But it won't "just become a liquid". If you added calcium, it would precipitate out as calcium phosphate and be a mess, as the dealer was saying.

Basically, if you are concerned about low calcium for any reason, then you'd have to replace your water (to remove the phosphate buffer) before adding any calcium. Calcium and phosphate buffers are not compatible, period.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

When I said "unless its made for it" I was talking about PH Balance PLUS which is suppose to be for hard water conditions. I am not sure what it is or how it works but after seeing what regular balance and hard water does, I did not want to try it.

[chem geek]

When I said "unless its made for it" I was talking about PH Balance PLUS which is suppose to be for hard water conditions. I am not sure what it is or how it works but after seeing what regular balance and hard water does, I did not want to try it.

The Leisure Time pH Balance Plus has an MSDS shown here and is a combination of boric acid with a little sodium carbonate for neutral pH. It's mostly boric acid so is basically a borates buffer system. That's why it is compatible with calcium. You could use a combination of 20 Mule Team Borax and acid to produce the same result, but this boric acid product is more convenient as it is pH neutral (you could also buy boric acid from The Chemistry Store here).