What Is Optimizer?, What Is Renewal? Salt Level?

[Rusty]

We are new pool owners. 16,000 gal Compass (Ceramic composite Fiberglass) pool with in-floor cleaning system and Mineral Springs system. So far things are going pretty well. We have been adding Muratic Acid to keep the Alkalinity and pH in check at the advice of our dealer. When he tested our water this weekend we had a Saturation index of .7, TDS=4200, CYA=40, Tc=Fc=7.1, pH-8.2, Ta=107, Adj Alk=95, Tot Hardness=175, Minerals=2800, Borates=27.

The dealer printout recommended adding Muratic Acid to adjust pH, but also Optimizer Plus to adjust high saturation index along with additional Muratic Acid as the Optimizer is added.

I am curious what this optimizer does and if there are other more direct methods to correct this Saturation Index. The printout has indicated to add the Renewal, but my dealer has not stressed this as something I need. Will adding Renewal make things easier? I have noticed that the Fc levels have been testing unusually high since I am only running my pump 12h/day and have the MS set at 20%. Also, the mineral/salt level on my unit never matches the test performed by the dealer. When he reads 2800, I get 3300 to 3400ppm on my MS unit.

[waterbear]

We are new pool owners. 16,000 gal Compass (Ceramic composite Fiberglass) pool with in-floor cleaning system and Mineral Springs system. So far things are going pretty well. We have been adding Muratic Acid to keep the Alkalinity and pH in check at the advice of our dealer. When he tested our water this weekend we had a Saturation index of .7, TDS=4200, CYA=40, Tc=Fc=7.1, pH-8.2, Ta=107, Adj Alk=95, Tot Hardness=175, Minerals=2800, Borates=27.

The dealer printout recommended adding Muratic Acid to adjust pH, but also Optimizer Plus to adjust high saturation index along with additional Muratic Acid as the Optimizer is added.

I am curious what this optimizer does and if there are other more direct methods to correct this Saturation Index. The printout has indicated to add the Renewal, but my dealer has not stressed this as something I need. Will adding Renewal make things easier? I have noticed that the Fc levels have been testing unusually high since I am only running my pump 12h/day and have the MS set at 20%. Also, the mineral/salt level on my unit never matches the test performed by the dealer. When he reads 2800, I get 3300 to 3400ppm on my MS unit.

The Mineral Springs unit is a rebranded Goldline Controls Aquarite unit. You can get a lot of info at WWW.Goldlinecontrols.com.

The Optimizer is basically borax! it is Sodium Tetraborate pentahydrate. (Borax is sodium tetraborate decahydrate....it has 5 more water molecules attached so to achieve the same borate level you need to add more by wieight compared to the pentahydrate) It really won't affect the SI much but it does have algaestatic properties when the borate levels are 30-50 ppm and will introduce a secondary buffer system that can help stabilize pH. The addtional acid is needed since borax will raise the pH.

TDS and SI are bogus measurements that dealers use to sell you chems! (I work in a pool store and have a chemistry background).

AS far as the difference in the salt readings....frst, how is the dealer testing for salt? Meter, test strips, or liquid reagent....all of these have a variance of precision in the range of 100 ppm or higher. Also, the minerals readout (exactly the same as a salt readout according to tech support at Goldline!) is done by measing the conductivity and is temperature dependant! It can vary by a few hunderd ppm from an actual salt test done chemically or with a true, properly calibatred, temperature compensated salt meter!

You don't need Renewal....you just need to add salt when the level drops too low...it should be about 3200 ppm for your unit and make sure your CYA (stabilizer) is 60-80 ppm. Keep your pH below 7.6 at all times for optimum chlorine generation and to help prevent scale buildup on the cell.

[Rusty]

Thanks Waterbear!

I think he uses a salt meter. They tested my water this afternoon.

Temp 88

Si .2

TDS 4000

CYA 85

Tot Cl 4.4

Free Cl 4.4

pH 8.1

Tot Alk 144

Adj Tot Alk 118

Tot. Hardness 63

Minerals 3600

Borates 37.

The salt/minerals level on my unit is 3400. Its the first time they had a reading higher than my unit and I have not added any salt to my pool lately. They told me I needed to add 7# of Balance Pak 300 to raise my total hardness from 63 to their ideal range of 200-400. Should I care what my calcium hardness level is with a composite pool? A 5# container of BP300 is $10.95.

Thanks again...

[Stevie]

I respect your knowledge waterbear and I have been involved in watercare for many years myself. Can you elaborate on your comment regarding TDS and how it's bogus?

Thanks,

Steve

[waterbear]

I respect your knowledge waterbear and I have been involved in watercare for many years myself. Can you elaborate on your comment regarding TDS and how it's bogus?

Thanks,

Steve

Certainly,

First example is a pool with a SWG. The TDS is going to be the salt level along with all other dissolved substances such as calcium, magnesium, borates, phosphates, carbonates, bicarbonates, sulfates, etc. Since the salt level is ususally around 3000 ppm or higher the TDS in such a pool can be usually over 4000 ppm or higher (my own pool is over 5000 ppm) yet these pools exhibit NONE of the problems attributed to high TDS.

Second example, The biggest problem attrributed to high TDS included sanitizer not working leading to algae outbreaks with normal chlorine levels. A second problem attributed to high TDS is pitting of plaster in plaster pools. There are others. Now, most pools out there are chlorinated with trichlor (or dichlor). We all know that trichlor causes CYA levels to rise as the water 'ages'. The TDS will also rise but is the problem the high TDS or the high (sometimes as high as 200 ppm) CYA? All of the problems attributed to high TDS are KNOWN to be caused by high CYA levels, In fact, the research on plaster finishes was done by Arch Chemical who manufacture a lot of trichlor!

It is only recently that high CYA levels in residential pools are getting attention...manufacturers make a lot of money selling people algaecides and clarifiers to combat the problems of an overstabililzed pool and the problem has been compounded by the recent popularity of cartridge filters which cause the CYA levels to rise much faster than when sand filter are used because of the dilution effect from backwashing.

Think about it...chem manufacturers needed a way to tell people that they had to drain and refill their pools...if they told them it was because of the stabilized chlorine that thay were using do you think that would help their sales? As customers become educated it is amazing how many of them switch to liquid chlorine or cal hypo for chlorination.

Most states will close a commercial pool when the CYA hits 100 ppm. Not that many commercial pools are chlorinated with stabilized chlorine. Orp controllers and peristaltic dosing pumps for sodium hypochlorite seem to be among the most popular options.

Also, pools with CYA in the 30-50 ppm range that are chlorinated with unstabilzied chlorine AND have high TDS do not exhibit the problems attributed to high TDS either. Could this be because they have CYA levels in the 'recommended' range?

While it is true that "old water" that has been chlorinated with stabilized chlorine will have problems are the problems from the high TDS or the high CYA levels?

If you are talking about a bromine system this still applies if tabs are used...the dimethyhydantoin used in bromine tabs has an effect similar to CYA but not as pronounced. After a while the bromine becomes less effective because it it bound up by the excess dimethyhydandoin in the water Also, bromine systems develop a lot of bromamines after a while. These are not destroyed by 'shocking' as in a chlorine system. While it is generally held that bromamines are effective sanitzers some of the organic bromamines that form interfere with sanitation. The bromine locked up by the dimethyhydantion is a prime example. In spas, they are usually refilled on a regular basis, not because of TDS but because of organics that collect in the water from sweat and body oils. These organics are NOT measured by TDS meters since they are not ionic. This applies whether the spa is using chlorine or bromine.

[waterbear]

Thanks Waterbear!

I think he uses a salt meter. They tested my water this afternoon.

Temp 88

Si .2

TDS 4000

CYA 85

Tot Cl 4.4

Free Cl 4.4

pH 8.1

Tot Alk 144

Adj Tot Alk 118

Tot. Hardness 63

Minerals 3600

Borates 37.

The salt/minerals level on my unit is 3400. Its the first time they had a reading higher than my unit and I have not added any salt to my pool lately. They told me I needed to add 7# of Balance Pak 300 to raise my total hardness from 63 to their ideal range of 200-400. Should I care what my calcium hardness level is with a composite pool? A 5# container of BP300 is $10.95.

First of all, your ACUTUAL TDS measurement would be the TDS -salt which is 400 ppm....that is very low....like I said TDS is a bogus measurement. I noticed that they tested total hardness and not calcium hardness. Are they using test strips and a reader by any chance (ALEX system by Bioguard or one of it's clones?). If so I would recommend finding a store that does testing with liquid reagents such as Taylor or LaMotte. The results will be much more accurate.

Borate levels are not critical and are in the 30-50 ppm range. They are NOT necessary in the pool and can be increased with plain old 20 mule team borax if you want to maintain them. You do need to add muriatic acid to offset the pH increase they will cause.

As far as the calcium hardness, I would check your pool warrenty and see if the manufacurer recommends keeping it at the certain level. The jury still seems to be out as to whether calcium is needed in a fiberglass pool or not. I have seen conflicting reports and no definative answer. Some say it helps prevent leaching of cobalt from the finish and might help prevent staining but others refute that. IF you have any grouted tile work or a heater then you do need to have some hardness in your water. How much is necessary is a subject open to debate. I can tell you this. I have a fiberglass pool, heater, and grouted tile work and keep my calcium above 150 ppm. I have never let it go above 220 ppm.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again...

[waterbear]

Forgot something, while borates are not necessary they do help stabilize pH by introducing a secondayr borate/boric acid buffer system into the water. They also have an algaestatic effect when above 30 ppm. They make the water feel 'silker' ( I know that is a subjective term but borates are used in bath salts for this very reason). I personally have borates in my pool and spa. The main benefit I have reaped is a slower upward pH drift than before I added them.

[Rusty]

I get an alex printout from them , but it appears that they also use a reagent kit to verify some of the tests. Thanks again for all your help.

[Rusty]

Forgot something, while borates are not necessary they do help stabilize pH by introducing a secondayr borate/boric acid buffer system into the water. They also have an algaestatic effect when above 30 ppm. They make the water feel 'silker' ( I know that is a subjective term but borates are used in bath salts for this very reason). I personally have borates in my pool and spa. The main benefit I have reaped is a slower upward pH drift than before I added them.

Please recommend a test kit for Borate levels. I contacted Tayor and they do not make one. I see that LaMotte has a test strip for Borates.

[waterbear]

Please recommend a test kit for Borate levels. I contacted Tayor and they do not make one. I see that LaMotte has a test strip for Borates.

I have not used the LaMotte borate test strips but I have used the AquaChek Borate strips. IMHO, they provide enough accuracy to know if your borates are in the desired 30-50 ppm range. I found some internet sources for the Aquachek strips but non for the LaMotte. This is where I am ordering from for my personal use

diywatertesting . com

Free shipping and they arrive about 3 or 4 days after I order. Also the best internet price I have been able to find.

ProTeam has a liquid reagent test kit available but it is very expensive. They also makes strips (which I suspect might be rebranded Aquachek strips but am not sure)