High Ta And Low Ph.....up/down, Up/down....tired Of Playing Yo-yo! Help Please!

[wolfgang]

I need help in the worst way!

Fiberglass pool...18,200 gallons

I'm tired of playing the yo-yo game trying to get the TA and PH in line.

My TA was at 150 3 days ago and the ph was at 6.8. My local pool store told me to add Muratic Acid to get the TA in line first, which I did. (Added about 2 quarts over the period of 24 hours)

So, I got the TA to the 100 mark and started adding PH up to get the PH to at least 7.2 Finally after adding 6 lbs over the course of 24 hours got the PH all set to the 7.2 mark.

But......tested the water this morning and I'm right back where I started....except even worse! So darned frustrating! I'm now reading 170 TA and only 6.8 PH.

HELP ME! :wacko

[BFG]

Hello

It normaly can take a few weeks to settle down and stay put

BFK

[wolfgang]

Hello

It normaly can take a few weeks to settle down and stay put

BFK

so, which one of these do I do????

Lower and alkalinity and leave ph extremely low for a while?

or....

Get the PH up to where it should be and give the alkalinity time to drop on its own?

In other words, does your "give it a few weeks to settle down" mean to put the alkalinity where it should be and let the ph settle???

or.....

Put the PH where it should be and let the alkalinity settle???

[waterbear]

The problem with using sodium carbonate (pH increaser, soda ash, washing soda, sal soda) to increase pH is that it also raise TA by a large amount and you get caught on the roller coaster.....

What I would suggest is get your TA in line and then use Borax (20 mule team in the green box at the laundry aisle of your supermarket) to raise the pH. It will have minimal impact on your TA! As a side benefit borates in the water will introduce a secondary buffer system that helps stabilize pH and in a concentration of 30-50 ppm have an algaestatic effect. If you don't want to buy sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax) at the grocery store you can buy the pentahydrate (same thing except less water molecules attached so it is a bit more concentrated for a given weight) at a pool store under such brand names as ProTeam Supreme and Bioguard Optimizer! I would add about 1/4 box at a time and retest the pH in about an hour until it is where it needs to be.

[wolfgang]

The problem with using sodium carbonate (pH increaser, soda ash, washing soda, sal soda) to increase pH is that it also raise TA by a large amount and you get caught on the roller coaster.....

What I would suggest is get your TA in line and then use Borax (20 mule team in the green box at the laundry aisle of your supermarket) to raise the pH. It will have minimal impact on your TA! As a side benefit borates in the water will introduce a secondary buffer system that helps stabilize pH and in a concentration of 30-50 ppm have an algaestatic effect. If you don't want to buy sodium tetraborate decahydrate (Borax) at the grocery store you can buy the pentahydrate (same thing except less water molecules attached so it is a bit more concentrated for a given weight) at a pool store under such brand names as ProTeam Supreme and Bioguard Optimizer! I would add about 1/4 box at a time and retest the pH in about an hour until it is where it needs to be.

Thanks waterbear! You are the man! (Or maybe woman, the name really doesn't tell the gender.) I've been trying to find the answer to this for a long time.

I went back to my local pool supply store today and they told me to raise my PH up way high and let it sit....then the next day, add the muratic acid and it should bring them both down. So, now I've got an outrageously high PH after adding about 5lbs of Sun brand PH up. Was planning on adding the muratic acid tomorrow morning.

But.....your suggestion sounds much better and from what I've seen around here, you have all the right answers and know your stuff! Thank you so very much! I greatly appreciate it!

[waterbear]

Thanks waterbear! You are the man! (Or maybe woman, the name really doesn't tell the gender.) I've been trying to find the answer to this for a long time.

It was man last time I checked!

I'm just a guy who owns a pool of my own and works part time in a pool store.

[wolfgang]

It was man last time I checked!

I'm just a guy who owns a pool of my own and works part time in a pool store.

oK...It's confirmed, YOU ARE THE MAN! Hahaha. Thanks for the help.

[Diana]

I need help in the worst way!

Fiberglass pool...18,200 gallons

I'm tired of playing the yo-yo game trying to get the TA and PH in line.

My TA was at 150 3 days ago and the ph was at 6.8. My local pool store told me to add Muratic Acid to get the TA in line first, which I did. (Added about 2 quarts over the period of 24 hours)

So, I got the TA to the 100 mark and started adding PH up to get the PH to at least 7.2 Finally after adding 6 lbs over the course of 24 hours got the PH all set to the 7.2 mark.

But......tested the water this morning and I'm right back where I started....except even worse! So darned frustrating! I'm now reading 170 TA and only 6.8 PH.

HELP ME! :wacko

Do you shock your pool. I maintain mine with chlorine tabs in the skimmer but when the ta and ph start to wander, I shock and it usually brings it back into balance for a while.

[waterbear]

Do you shock your pool. I maintain mine with chlorine tabs in the skimmer but when the ta and ph start to wander, I shock and it usually brings it back into balance for a while.

Diana,

first, trichlor tabs in your skimmer are not a good idea. they can cause damage to your pump seals, heater if you have one, and the end caps on a cartridge if you use a cartridge filter. The tabs have a pH of 2.0 and it is similar to pouring acid right into your skimmer. The constant use of trichlor with cause both the TA and pH of your pool to lower with time.

second, shock is a verb not a noun. It means raising your free chlorine levels high enough to reach breakpoint chlorination. It will have litte effedt on TA and pH. I assume you are shocking with cal hypo since this is what is usually in the bags labeled 'shock'. It has a high pH so it will possibly raise the pH of your pool pH and TA tend to move together but it is not really raising the TA if it is too low at your nornal operating pH.

To raise TA you need to use sodium bicarbonate (aka sodium hydrogen carbonate, baking soda...all the same chemical)

To raise both TA and pH at the same time you need sodium carbonate (aka soda ash, washing soda). be aware that it raises TA a LOT while it raises pH. This is the indgredient in pH increaser sold at pool stores.

To raise pH without impacting TA use borax (20 mule team in the green box from the laundry aisle of the grocery store)

[11tone]

I need help in the worst way!

Fiberglass pool...18,200 gallons

I'm tired of playing the yo-yo game trying to get the TA and PH in line.

My TA was at 150 3 days ago and the ph was at 6.8. My local pool store told me to add Muratic Acid to get the TA in line first, which I did. (Added about 2 quarts over the period of 24 hours)

So, I got the TA to the 100 mark and started adding PH up to get the PH to at least 7.2 Finally after adding 6 lbs over the course of 24 hours got the PH all set to the 7.2 mark.

But......tested the water this morning and I'm right back where I started....except even worse! So darned frustrating! I'm now reading 170 TA and only 6.8 PH.

HELP ME! :wacko

First the TA is the most important thing to keep balanced in your pool it's like the mother nature of your pool if it is off nothing will balance. your PH buffers to your TA and alot of times you don't need to adjust the PH after you get the TA in line. In your case you did not need to adjust the TA a fiberglass and or gunite pool will always have a high TA level normal should be about 150 parts you just needed to adjust the PH. The other problem is someone telling you to add that much Acid it takes more product to get acid out. You have to be careful most of the people testing your water are relying on a computor program to tell you what to do and not experience....

[waterbear]

First the TA is the most important thing to keep balanced in your pool it's like the mother nature of your pool if it is off nothing will balance. your PH buffers to your TA and alot of times you don't need to adjust the PH after you get the TA in line.

Adding sodium bicarbonate tends to make the pH rise to 8.2 which is the pH that the carbonate/bicarbonate buffer in the water we call TA likes to 'rest'. It is often necessary to lower the pH to proper levels after adjusting the TA unless the pH and TA are only slightly both low, in which case just adjusting the pH to proper levels often brings the TA in line.

In your case you did not need to adjust the TA a fiberglass and or gunite pool will always have a high TA level normal should be about 150 parts you just needed to adjust the PH.

Actually, the TA of a pool is greatly influenced by the fill water, the amount of aeration the water gets (which influences the outgassing of carban dioxide, part of the total alkanlinity buffer system in the water), the surface of the pool (vinyl and fiberglass are non reactive and have less impact on water balance than gunite) and the type of chlorination used (trichlor and dichlor will lower pH and TA since they are both acidic. Triclor has the greatest impact). While it is true that vinyl and fiberglass pools can be run at a higher TA than gunite (they do not need the high calcium levels that gunite requites) this is not always desirable in terms of pH stablilty...once again the type of chlorine used for chlorination has an impact here.

The other problem is someone telling you to add that much Acid it takes more product to get acid out. You have to be careful most of the people testing your water are relying on a computor program to tell you what to do and not experience....

If the TA is too high the 'slug method' of adding acid is not effective. A much easier way is to lower the TA with acid (do not go below a pH of 7 for vinyl pools! no lower than 6.8 for gunite or fiberglass) and then aerate to raise the pH (yes, it works by outgassing carbon dixoide so there is less carbonic acid, which is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, in the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system we call TA).

Once the pH is in line (7.4-7.6) recheck the TA and if still too high repeat the process until the TA is correct once the pH has been raised by aerating.

[11tone]

If the TA is too high the 'slug method' of adding acid is not effective. A much easier way is to lower the TA with acid (do not go below a pH of 7 for vinyl pools! no lower than 6.8 for gunite or fiberglass) and then aerate to raise the pH (yes, it works by outgassing carbon dixoide so there is less carbonic acid, which is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, in the carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbonate buffer system we call TA).

Once the pH is in line (7.4-7.6) recheck the TA and if still too high repeat the process until the TA is correct once the pH has been raised by aerating.

First in vinyl the TA needs to be at 100 parts which will extend the life of the liner. Second Fiberglass pools are no different in where the TA should be adjusted to as SPA's which are fiberglass and Gunite 135 to 150 to effectivley maintain your pool. If you try to adjust your PH before the TA you will be wasting money and time it will do nothing but bounce up and down which it did. and also why it climed back up to 150ppm again the problem is everybody keeps focusing on the PH wrong... Trichlor and Dichlor will only effect the PH at first not the TA and only because of over chlorination of the pool. If you keep the PH to low and do not pay attention to the TA your pool will bottom out and become to acidic which happens 90% of the time and than what in the chemist world what do you add to get the acid out sodium Bicarbonate / Baking soda and alot of swimming pools are what they are and the chemicals you put into them. Water is effected by tons of things. Fill water from Well, and maybe acid rain are the only two sources that could lower your TA. City will increase it every time..... A pool is not rocket science and should not have to be put into all the jargen of big words So anyone else reading focus on the TA of your pool always save some money and time this is not hard and is what it is and do not keep high levels of chlorine in the water test your pool yourself every other day. So for the original question keep your TA between 135 to 150 and the 7.4 to 7.6 and life will be great if the PH drops check the TA first if it is where it needs to be than add PH increaser / Sodium Carbonate.. This from 23 yrs experience in the swimming pool industry.

[waterbear]

First in vinyl the TA needs to be at 100 parts which will extend the life of the liner. Second Fiberglass pools are no different in where the TA should be adjusted to as SPA's which are fiberglass and Gunite 135 to 150 to effectivley maintain your pool. If you try to adjust your PH before the TA you will be wasting money and time it will do nothing but bounce up and down which it did. and also why it climed back up to 150ppm again the problem is everybody keeps focusing on the PH wrong... Trichlor and Dichlor will only effect the PH at first not the TA and only because of over chlorination of the pool.

Water is effected by tons of things. Fill water from Well, and maybe acid rain are the only two sources that could lower your TA. City will increase it every time..... A pool is not rocket science and should not have to be put into all the jargen of big words So anyone else reading focus on the TA of your pool always save some money and time this is not hard and is what it is and do not keep high levels of chlorine in the water test your pool yourself every other day. So for the original question keep your TA between 135 to 150 and the 7.4 to 7.6 and life will be great if the PH drops check the TA first if it is where it needs to be than add PH increaser / Sodium Carbonate.. This from 23 yrs experience in the swimming pool industry.

There is so much misinformation in this post and so many run on sentances that I don't know where to begin. for example "fill water from Well, and maybe acid rain are the only two sources that could lower your TA. City will increase it every time....."

Well water might have a high TA or a low TA, it depends on the part of the country that you are in. Ditto for city water. In the area I live in both well water and city water have a TA of about 110 ppm. Depening on where you keep the TA in your pool this could either raise or lower the TA of the pool (or have no effect at all).

"So anyone else reading focus on the TA of your pool always save some money and time this is not hard and is what it is and do not keep high levels of chlorine in the water test your pool yourself every other day."

Could someone please translate this into English? It makes no sense whatsoever.

"Trichlor and Dichlor will only effect the PH at first not the TA and only because of over chlorination of the pool."

The reason trichlor and dichlor will affect the pH and then the TA of a pool has nothing to do with overchlorination. They are acidic. Trichlor has a pH of about 2 while diclor's pH is about 6. Over time the continual use will lower the pH and cause the TA to lower also. When these are used for chlorination you are constantly adding an acid to your pool.

"If you keep the PH to low and do not pay attention to the TA your pool will bottom out and become to acidic which happens 90% of the time and than what in the chemist world what do you add to get the acid out sodium Bicarbonate / Baking soda and alot of swimming pools are what they are and the chemicals you put into them."

Once again, can anyone translate this into English? From what I can tell you are advocating using sodium bicarboante to raise pH. This is not an effective way to do that. Sodium bicarbonate is used to raise TA. To raise pH without having an impact on TA you would use sodium tetraborate. To raise pH and TA at the same time you would use sodium carbonate.

"This from 23 yrs experience in the swimming pool industry."

Sorry if this appears to be rude but in 23 years one would think you would have learned a bit about pool chemicals, water chemistry, and proper water balance. You make no mention of calcium levels which have to be taken into consideration. A pool with high calcium should be run at a lower TA to avoid scaling. You also make no metion of CYA (cyanuric acid) levels. CYA will test as TA but is not part of carbonic acid/carbonate/bicarbnate buffer system and if the CYA levels are high then the TA should be adjusted. A ball park ajustment is to subtract 1/3 of the CYA reading from the TA when the pH is 7.4 to 8.0 or 1/4 of the CYA reading if the pH is 7.o-7.2 to get the ajusted TA. If the CYA levels are low (30 ppm or below) then the effects of CYA on the TA reading are minimal and can be pretty much ignored.

"A pool is not rocket science"

On this I agree 100%. However, a basic knowledge of the chemistry that happens in a pool is necessary to successfully balance the pool water and sanitize it. Very few chemicals are actually needed to balance a pool and sanitize it. A form of chlorine (or bromine or biguainde) for sanitation, muriatic acid for lowering pH, sodium tetraoborate for raising pH without impacting TA, baking soda for rasing TA, sodium carbonate for raising both TA and pH at the same time, calcium chloride to increase calcium hardness if needed, and possibly CYA if non stabilized chlorine is used as the chorine source. All other chems are really unnecesary, except for possibly polyquat to help combat algae in conjuction with shocking although the use of sodium tetraborate in the 30-50 ppm is effective as an algaestat and helps lower the chlorine demand.

[slhalufska]

First the TA is the most important thing to keep balanced in your pool it's like the mother nature of your pool if it is off nothing will balance. your PH buffers to your TA and alot of times you don't need to adjust the PH after you get the TA in line. In your case you did not need to adjust the TA a fiberglass and or gunite pool will always have a high TA level normal should be about 150 parts you just needed to adjust the PH. The other problem is someone telling you to add that much Acid it takes more product to get acid out. You have to be careful most of the people testing your water are relying on a computor program to tell you what to do and not experience....

I'm a real newbie. We have a 10,000 gal fiberglass pool which is not yet hooked up to the equipment. (Long, long story . . . don't ask) To keep the water circulating, I hooked my sump pump up to the vac hose and left the hose in the pool so that the pump sucks the water out & the hose pumps it back it. We had to use muriatic acid to clean the interior wall of the pool lip to re-pour a portion of the concrete deck & cantilever. Now my balance is way, way off! Don't even know what the TA reads - it shows red right off the bat. PH is at 6.2. Question - is sodium carbonate (soda ash, etc) the SAME as sodium BIcarbonate (borax)?? Also, if my TA was testing red at the start - is it too high or too low? According to my test chart, muriatic acid will lower both TA and PH, but I need to raise the PH.

Any help is well appreciated.

sue in florida

[waterbear]

I'm a real newbie. We have a 10,000 gal fiberglass pool which is not yet hooked up to the equipment. (Long, long story . . . don't ask) To keep the water circulating, I hooked my sump pump up to the vac hose and left the hose in the pool so that the pump sucks the water out & the hose pumps it back it. We had to use muriatic acid to clean the interior wall of the pool lip to re-pour a portion of the concrete deck & cantilever. Now my balance is way, way off! Don't even know what the TA reads - it shows red right off the bat.

That would be a TA of 0.....you need to raise your pH and TA right away!

PH is at 6.2. Question

How are you testing pH since the phenol red indicator that is used in pool test kits only goes down to 6.8.

- is sodium carbonate (soda ash, etc) the SAME as sodium BIcarbonate (borax)??

NO

Sodium carbonate (soda ash, washing soda, pH increaer) will raise pH AND raise TA quickly

Sodium bicarbonate (sodium hydrogen carbonate, baking soda, Total Alkalinity increaser) will raise TA and only slightly raise pH

Sodium Tetraborate (20 mule team Borax, Proteam Supreme, Biolab Optimizer) will raise pH with minimal impact on TA.

Also, if my TA was testing red at the start - is it too high or too low?

I assume you are using a Taylor test kit or equivalent...indicator turns from green to red....if it starts red it means that you have 0 ppm TA and probably a very low pH.

According to my test chart, muriatic acid will lower both TA and PH, but I need to raise the PH.

YOu need to raise both your pH and TA....sodium carbonate is the best choice for this but be aware that it can cause your TA to go too high if you overdose.

Any help is well appreciated.

sue in florida

[dynamictiger]

Also, if my TA was testing red at the start - is it too high or too low?

I assume you are using a Taylor test kit or equivalent...indicator turns from green to red....if it starts red it means that you have 0 ppm TA and probably a very low pH.

The pH has to be 4.0 or below for the test kit to react this way. I would suggest of the choices that most likely a large dose of sodium carbonate would get you started on raising your TA. You may find you need quite a lot to neutralise the acid still in your pool.