Soft Water - Help!

[tobz]

I'm looking to get a new spa and I have a water softener. The hose bib on the back of the house comes out of the block wall and I'm pretty sure it's softened water. Not sure how to test - that's question #1. Does anyone know of a way to test to see if that water is softened?

If it is softened and there is no convenient way to get non-softened water to the back yard is there anything I can do about this? What is my risk? I was told by a salesman that soft water would pull minerals from the shell or plumbing. I have to think it's more related to affecting the pump's internal parts.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[hottubdan]

Take a sample of your water to a pool/spa store that tests for hardness.

Worst case you have to add a lot of calcium hadness to spa water at start up.

[Amanda]

There are simply test strips or dropper kits that you can use at home to test the hardness of your water if you don't want to have to take it in to be tested. And hottubdan has it rgiht... Calcium hardness increaser (should be at your local spa store) will do the trick.

[waterbear]

There are simply test strips or dropper kits that you can use at home to test the hardness of your water if you don't want to have to take it in to be tested. And hottubdan has it rgiht... Calcium hardness increaser (should be at your local spa store) will do the trick.

Actually, calcium is really only important in a plaster (gunite) spa but it is necessary for your heater. you want to increase it to about 150 ppm if you have an acrylic spa.

[tobz]

Actually, calcium is really only important in a plaster (gunite) spa but it is necessary for your heater. you want to increase it to about 150 ppm if you have an acrylic spa.

Thanks for the info!

I contacted the company I had service my water softener and they pointed out I have a bypass valve I can use when filling the spa. Guess I should be doing that for the pool too!

I was more curious if the soft water affected maintaining chemicals or somehow erroded the mechanics due to salt residue or lack of minerals.

[DGmarie]

Thanks for the info!

I contacted the company I had service my water softener and they pointed out I have a bypass valve I can use when filling the spa. Guess I should be doing that for the pool too!

I was more curious if the soft water affected maintaining chemicals or somehow erroded the mechanics due to salt residue or lack of minerals.

You don't want to put salt water in your spa or pool. The answer is yes, it will be a problem.

[Amanda]

The bypass valve is the way to go. If your water is still too soft, calcium hardness will help protect your equipment. In laymens terms I am under the understanding that if your water is too soft, the metals/minerals in the water stay in soluble form and can eventually build up on the equipment. Calcium hardness will make the water hard enough to force the particles to bind together and become large enough for your filter to get them out of your water. Things like "stain and scale control" on a weekly basis can help keep things from building up on your equipment as you add a little water through the evaporation process. If you ask 10 different people how to take care of your water- you will get ten different answers. I would see what brand of chemicals your local dealer carries and then check that brand out on the computer. Each manufacturer of chemicals has a website you can check and they will help you to understand what each of the chemicals do and why you would need them. Each area has differences in their water as well. For instance, I do not recommend calcium hardness in the water if you fill it with unfiltered well water but I would recommend "metal out" of some sort because around here in the northwest, the water hardness is perfect when it comes from the ground. Good luck!

[waterbear]

The bypass valve is the way to go. If your water is still too soft, calcium hardness will help protect your equipment. In laymens terms I am under the understanding that if your water is too soft, the metals/minerals in the water stay in soluble form and can eventually build up on the equipment

Actually, the reverse is true. If the water is too hard the mineral can deposit out on your equipment, especially under conditon of high temperature and high pH.

. Calcium hardness will make the water hard enough to force the particles to bind together and become large enough for your filter to get them out of your water.

False. The hardness of the water makes it less agressive against metal components of your system and againse the plaster in a gunite spa or pool. Water has a 'thirst' for calcium and other metals and if there is not enought present it will try and satisfy that thirst by dissolving metals, especially under conditions of low pH.

Things like "stain and scale control" on a weekly basis can help keep things from building up on your equipment as you add a little water through the evaporation process. If you ask 10 different people how to take care of your water- you will get ten different answers. I would see what brand of chemicals your local dealer carries and then check that brand out on the computer.

Almost every stain and scale control product on the market is based on HEDP or other phosphonic acid derivatives except for the few based on other chelating agents such as EDTA. They work by chemically inactivating the metals (yes, calcium is a metal) so they are non reactive with the other chemicals in the water and won't deposit out as stain or scale. This seqeatering effect is destroyed by the oxidizing stanitizers used so this is why they need to be reapplied on a weekly or monthly basis.

Each manufacturer of chemicals has a website you can check and they will help you to understand what each of the chemicals do and why you would need them. Each area has differences in their water as well. For instance, I do not recommend calcium hardness in the water if you fill it with unfiltered well water

Once again not true, there are areas of the country where well water is very soft. Only a water test on your fill water will tell you what is in it.

but I would recommend "metal out" of some sort because around here in the northwest, the water hardness is perfect when it comes from the ground.

Once again, testing is required to see what type of metals are present, it might be iron, copper, manganse, etc. Different seqesterant forumulations will have various 'chelaton indexes' for different metals. That means a particular product might, for example, sequester copper first, iron second, and calcium hardly at all while a different one might work mainly on calcium and have less effect on other metals in the water.

Good luck!

Hope this is helpful.

[Amanda]

Thank you for clarifying these points. I have much to learn still and am happy to admit if my understanding hasbeen incorrect.

1.

If your water is still too soft, calcium hardness will help protect your equipment. In laymens terms I am under the understanding that if your water is too soft, the metals/minerals in the water stay in soluble form and can eventually build up on the equipment-

"Actually, the reverse is true. If the water is too hard the mineral can deposit out on your equipment, especially under conditon of high temperature and high pH."

I understand that if hardness is too high, mineral deposits will form. The faucets in my home have evidence of this from my well water. I would not recommend to balance spa water to a high level of hardness because it would be damaging. With this, we are in agreement. It's a good thing that there are simple tests to let people know what level of calcium is in the water. I'm interested to hear how you explain what happens if your calcium level is too low?

2.

Calcium hardness will make the water hard enough to force the particles to bind together and become large enough for your filter to get them out of your water.

False. The hardness of the water makes it less agressive against metal components of your system and againse the plaster in a gunite spa or pool. Water has a 'thirst' for calcium and other metals and if there is not enought present it will try and satisfy that thirst by dissolving metals, especially under conditions of low pH.

I claimed I was under the understanding, I must have understood incorrectly about HOW the correct level of calcium hardness actually worked. The chemical directions do not explain this. I know that the correct level of hardness helps protect your equipment. Your explanation makes sense.

3.

Things like "stain and scale control" on a weekly basis can help keep things from building up on your equipment as you add a little water through the evaporation process.

"Almost every stain and scale control product on the market is based on HEDP or other phosphonic acid derivatives except for the few based on other chelating agents such as EDTA. They work by chemically inactivating the metals (yes, calcium is a metal) so they are non reactive with the other chemicals in the water and won't deposit out as stain or scale. This seqeatering effect is destroyed by the oxidizing stanitizers used so this is why they need to be reapplied on a weekly or monthly basis."

When I mentioned "things" building upon your equipment... the "deposit build up" is what I meant. Calcium is a metal? I thought it was a mineral. Well, I certainly cannot claim to be a chemist (although I am always interested in more information) BUT I do know how to test spa water and follow directions on the back of the bottle to provide the right dose of the right chemical according to the test results. I'm sure this is the main concern for many people.

4.

Each area has differences in their water as well. For instance, I do not recommend calcium hardness in the water if you fill it with unfiltered well water but I would recommend "metal out" of some sort because around here in the northwest, the water hardness is perfect when it comes from the ground.

"Once again not true, there are areas of the country where well water is very soft."

if you read the entire context, I finished with "around here in the northwest" (I mean specifically in Woodinville, WA) the hardness is great. I have never (in 4 or so years) had to have someone add calcium if they have a well... here... according to the tests that I have done... on our local water. I should have clarified more. Thank you for testing me and reminding me to be more specific. I absolutely understand that water is different from different areas in the country- as I stated "Each area has differences in their water". With this- once again, - we are in agreement.

5.

"Only a water test on your fill water will tell you what is in it.Once again, testing is required to see what type of metals are present, it might be iron, copper, manganse, etc. Different seqesterant forumulations will have various 'chelaton indexes' for different metals. That means a particular product might, for example, sequester copper first, iron second, and calcium hardly at all while a different one might work mainly on calcium and have less effect on other metals in the water."

In our store, we have a product called "metal out". It takes care of getting the metal out of the water. Simple, easy. I recommend this for people with well water because around here, tests have shown positive for metal.

Whew! Glad that is over... Waterbear, I would like your suggestion for a website or book for folks to read to learn the exact chemistry behind the water care if they are interested in "diving in" (so to speak) to the specifics beyond proper dosage.

[tobz]

Wow, thanks waterbear and Amanda! Your dialog has been immensely helpful.

Sounds like the bypass valve is definately the way to go.

[Amanda]

Wow, thanks waterbear and Amanda! Your dialog has been immensely helpful.

Sounds like the bypass valve is definately the way to go.

Your welcome! I learn something new in here all of the time! Glad you are visiting!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Wow, thanks waterbear and Amanda! Your dialog has been immensely helpful.

Sounds like the bypass valve is definately the way to go.

BTW, while soft water is not a good thing and hard water has it's issue as well, when someone has a water softener and bypass on their outside spigot, we always advice that they fill the spa with 80% hard water and 20% soft water to get a good balance.

[waterbear]

BTW, while soft water is not a good thing and hard water has it's issue as well, when someone has a water softener and bypass on their outside spigot, we always advice that they fill the spa with 80% hard water and 20% soft water to get a good balance.

That sort of advice is dubious at best without knowing exactly HOW hard the water is before it is treated. It it has calcium hardness levels in excess of 500 ppm (and some areas of the county do) then the water is still too hard and can cause scaling. Also if the water has any metals in it the softener will remove or reduce them. In such a case filling with softened water and then adding enough calcium to protect the heat exhanger would be a much better idea. Accurate testing of the untreated and treated water before filling is the only way to really know.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

That sort of advice is dubious at best without knowing exactly HOW hard the water is before it is treated. It it has calcium hardness levels in excess of 500 ppm (and some areas of the county do) then the water is still too hard and can cause scaling. Also if the water has any metals in it the softener will remove or reduce them. In such a case filling with softened water and then adding enough calcium to protect the heat exhanger would be a much better idea. Accurate testing of the untreated and treated water before filling is the only way to really know.

I give that advice locally where I know the content (therefore making the advice less than dubious) but you're right, it matters what your source is and I should have explained that more thoroughly.

[tobz]

I give that advice locally where I know the content (therefore making the advice less than dubious) but you're right, it matters what your source is and I should have explained that more thoroughly.

I live in Phoenix and I think compared to the east coast our water is much less hard. I understand however, that until the water is tested, it's useless to guess. Thanks!